Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: Agree with your assessment. I think self-selection will kick in over time and those applying will only be those that that can make it. First couple of years, kids will drop out after freshman year. once this info. spreads through the grapevine, few will apply. By the time this all shakes out, it will be another 5-10 years and a more-than-likely more left-leaning school board and county will decide to shut down the school. Will be good business for the private schools..

Like everyone pointed out, it's the white kids, whose numbers will go up with this approach that will benefit the most. Unless you are a certified genius/nerd (not using that in a negative way), why would any URM even want to go to TJ? Most intelligent to above-average intelligent URM would be better off going to base HS, doing well while having fun and getting into an elite school.

If you look at TJ, only about 50-70 kids get into really elite schools. These fall into the genius/nerd category with a few extroverted geniuses among them. Another 50-100 go to UVA and another 100-200 go to equivalent schools. Most of this group would have done about as well or better at their base high schools. Why do they go to TJ? They all think they are elite. They find out they are not in Sophomore year. By then it's too late to move to base for a variety of reasons.

The reason is because there is a much, MUCH bigger delta in terms of educational opportunities between their base school (which in many cases will come from the southern and eastern end of the county) and TJ than there is between, say, Langley or McLean or Chantilly and TJ. Right now the biggest reasons that Black and Latinx students do not want to apply to TJ - or accept their offers of admission, because that happens more than you think - are because there aren't enough students there who look like them and because there is plenty of WOM evidence within their communities that the ones who go are treated poorly by their white and Asian colleagues who assume them to be part of a racial affirmative action process that hasn't existed for decades.

I don't disagree on most of your reasons as to why they are under-represented at TJ. However, the "observation" about being treated poorly on the premise that they are in due to affirmative action is just a bunch of BS. All I was alluding to was, what's in it for them? The really smart among any demographic will shine at TJ. The really smart among URMs will get the same outcome regardless of which HS they attend. Which do you think they will choose to attend? I bet the majority will chose to stay at base. Heck, if I was guranteed the same outcome at base vs TJ, my DC will not go there! Too much work for the entire family.

A person who genuinely believes the bolded here is outing themselves as either a) a person who has never attended TJ; b) a person who attended but buried their head in the sand; or c) a person who has knowingly or unknowingly actively engaged in this behavior. It's not an observation - it's a thing that happens. The only reason it doesn't happen more is because there are so few Black and Hispanic students in the building.

It's amazing how often people in this forum tell on themselves without realizing it.

If someone doesn't agree with your worldview, they must be wrong. Get a life moron. Parent of 2 TJ kids here that posted the above. Don't make up shit because you and yours can't make it and need "concessions" to win the race. Spend time with your kids, make them study. Don't ask for handouts. Jeez, the freeloader wannabe crowd around here is mind-boggling. The new framework for admissions is based on certain lies that are being pushed as facts, the above being one of them. Get real.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: Agree with your assessment. I think self-selection will kick in over time and those applying will only be those that that can make it. First couple of years, kids will drop out after freshman year. once this info. spreads through the grapevine, few will apply. By the time this all shakes out, it will be another 5-10 years and a more-than-likely more left-leaning school board and county will decide to shut down the school. Will be good business for the private schools..

Like everyone pointed out, it's the white kids, whose numbers will go up with this approach that will benefit the most. Unless you are a certified genius/nerd (not using that in a negative way), why would any URM even want to go to TJ? Most intelligent to above-average intelligent URM would be better off going to base HS, doing well while having fun and getting into an elite school.

If you look at TJ, only about 50-70 kids get into really elite schools. These fall into the genius/nerd category with a few extroverted geniuses among them. Another 50-100 go to UVA and another 100-200 go to equivalent schools. Most of this group would have done about as well or better at their base high schools. Why do they go to TJ? They all think they are elite. They find out they are not in Sophomore year. By then it's too late to move to base for a variety of reasons.

The reason is because there is a much, MUCH bigger delta in terms of educational opportunities between their base school (which in many cases will come from the southern and eastern end of the county) and TJ than there is between, say, Langley or McLean or Chantilly and TJ. Right now the biggest reasons that Black and Latinx students do not want to apply to TJ - or accept their offers of admission, because that happens more than you think - are because there aren't enough students there who look like them and because there is plenty of WOM evidence within their communities that the ones who go are treated poorly by their white and Asian colleagues who assume them to be part of a racial affirmative action process that hasn't existed for decades.

I don't disagree on most of your reasons as to why they are under-represented at TJ. However, the "observation" about being treated poorly on the premise that they are in due to affirmative action is just a bunch of BS. All I was alluding to was, what's in it for them? The really smart among any demographic will shine at TJ. The really smart among URMs will get the same outcome regardless of which HS they attend. Which do you think they will choose to attend? I bet the majority will chose to stay at base. Heck, if I was guranteed the same outcome at base vs TJ, my DC will not go there! Too much work for the entire family.

A person who genuinely believes the bolded here is outing themselves as either a) a person who has never attended TJ; b) a person who attended but buried their head in the sand; or c) a person who has knowingly or unknowingly actively engaged in this behavior. It's not an observation - it's a thing that happens. The only reason it doesn't happen more is because there are so few Black and Hispanic students in the building.

It's amazing how often people in this forum tell on themselves without realizing it.

If someone doesn't agree with your worldview, they must be wrong. Get a life moron. Parent of 2 TJ kids here that posted the above. Don't make up shit because you and yours can't make it and need "concessions" to win the race. Spend time with your kids, make them study. Don't ask for handouts. Jeez, the freeloader wannabe crowd around here is mind-boggling. The new framework for admissions is based on certain lies that are being pushed as facts, the above being one of them. Get real.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: Agree with your assessment. I think self-selection will kick in over time and those applying will only be those that that can make it. First couple of years, kids will drop out after freshman year. once this info. spreads through the grapevine, few will apply. By the time this all shakes out, it will be another 5-10 years and a more-than-likely more left-leaning school board and county will decide to shut down the school. Will be good business for the private schools..

Like everyone pointed out, it's the white kids, whose numbers will go up with this approach that will benefit the most. Unless you are a certified genius/nerd (not using that in a negative way), why would any URM even want to go to TJ? Most intelligent to above-average intelligent URM would be better off going to base HS, doing well while having fun and getting into an elite school.

If you look at TJ, only about 50-70 kids get into really elite schools. These fall into the genius/nerd category with a few extroverted geniuses among them. Another 50-100 go to UVA and another 100-200 go to equivalent schools. Most of this group would have done about as well or better at their base high schools. Why do they go to TJ? They all think they are elite. They find out they are not in Sophomore year. By then it's too late to move to base for a variety of reasons.

The reason is because there is a much, MUCH bigger delta in terms of educational opportunities between their base school (which in many cases will come from the southern and eastern end of the county) and TJ than there is between, say, Langley or McLean or Chantilly and TJ. Right now the biggest reasons that Black and Latinx students do not want to apply to TJ - or accept their offers of admission, because that happens more than you think - are because there aren't enough students there who look like them and because there is plenty of WOM evidence within their communities that the ones who go are treated poorly by their white and Asian colleagues who assume them to be part of a racial affirmative action process that hasn't existed for decades.

I don't disagree on most of your reasons as to why they are under-represented at TJ. However, the "observation" about being treated poorly on the premise that they are in due to affirmative action is just a bunch of BS. All I was alluding to was, what's in it for them? The really smart among any demographic will shine at TJ. The really smart among URMs will get the same outcome regardless of which HS they attend. Which do you think they will choose to attend? I bet the majority will chose to stay at base. Heck, if I was guranteed the same outcome at base vs TJ, my DC will not go there! Too much work for the entire family.

A person who genuinely believes the bolded here is outing themselves as either a) a person who has never attended TJ; b) a person who attended but buried their head in the sand; or c) a person who has knowingly or unknowingly actively engaged in this behavior. It's not an observation - it's a thing that happens. The only reason it doesn't happen more is because there are so few Black and Hispanic students in the building.

It's amazing how often people in this forum tell on themselves without realizing it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

My understanding is that they'll take the top 1.5% from each middle school based on GPA without any credit or boost given to those who take Algebra in 7th rather than M7H. Like, the kid who gets 1 A- in 7th grade AAP English, but took Algebra in 7th with a high A will be rated lower than someone with straight A's and M7H in 7th. This is absurd and will surely lead to a reduction in the talent pool of those admitted to TJ.

We'll never know the answer to this (as it should be), but I don't buy that it will be this cut and dried. There will be many more factors that contribute to the overall narrative.

They haven't exactly been forthcoming about what constitutes the top 1.5%. If they take the pool of kids who are enrolled in at least 3 honors classes, and then just do a straight GPA cut with no bonus points given for 7th grade Algebra or taking 4 honors rather than 3, they'll end up with a lot of kids at TJ who are not overly qualified to be there. If there are other behind the scenes factors that allow each middle school to more accurately select their top 1.5%, then the system will be fine.

I know of a couple kids who are applying with straight As in middle school (perhaps thanks to relaxed standards due to covid) who bombed the IAAT and are probably not even in the top 20% of FCPS kids in terms of math aptitude. It will be interesting to see whether they get in.

It would be nightmarish for them to give a straight answer on this - for the same reasons that TJ doesn't identify class rank or a valedictorian. The more specific you are about this process, the more you will see students and parents attempting to game said process and sell out their respective childhoods for those precious guaranteed spots.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

My understanding is that they'll take the top 1.5% from each middle school based on GPA without any credit or boost given to those who take Algebra in 7th rather than M7H. Like, the kid who gets 1 A- in 7th grade AAP English, but took Algebra in 7th with a high A will be rated lower than someone with straight A's and M7H in 7th. This is absurd and will surely lead to a reduction in the talent pool of those admitted to TJ.

We'll never know the answer to this (as it should be), but I don't buy that it will be this cut and dried. There will be many more factors that contribute to the overall narrative.

They haven't exactly been forthcoming about what constitutes the top 1.5%. If they take the pool of kids who are enrolled in at least 3 honors classes, and then just do a straight GPA cut with no bonus points given for 7th grade Algebra or taking 4 honors rather than 3, they'll end up with a lot of kids at TJ who are not overly qualified to be there. If there are other behind the scenes factors that allow each middle school to more accurately select their top 1.5%, then the system will be fine.

I know of a couple kids who are applying with straight As in middle school (perhaps thanks to relaxed standards due to covid) who bombed the IAAT and are probably not even in the top 20% of FCPS kids in terms of math aptitude. It will be interesting to see whether they get in.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

My understanding is that they'll take the top 1.5% from each middle school based on GPA without any credit or boost given to those who take Algebra in 7th rather than M7H. Like, the kid who gets 1 A- in 7th grade AAP English, but took Algebra in 7th with a high A will be rated lower than someone with straight A's and M7H in 7th. This is absurd and will surely lead to a reduction in the talent pool of those admitted to TJ.

We'll never know the answer to this (as it should be), but I don't buy that it will be this cut and dried. There will be many more factors that contribute to the overall narrative.

They haven't exactly been forthcoming about what constitutes the top 1.5%. If they take the pool of kids who are enrolled in at least 3 honors classes, and then just do a straight GPA cut with no bonus points given for 7th grade Algebra or taking 4 honors rather than 3, they'll end up with a lot of kids at TJ who are not overly qualified to be there. If there are other behind the scenes factors that allow each middle school to more accurately select their top 1.5%, then the system will be fine.

I know of a couple kids who are applying with straight As in middle school (perhaps thanks to relaxed standards due to covid) who bombed the IAAT and are probably not even in the top 20% of FCPS kids in terms of math aptitude. It will be interesting to see whether they get in.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

My understanding is that they'll take the top 1.5% from each middle school based on GPA without any credit or boost given to those who take Algebra in 7th rather than M7H. Like, the kid who gets 1 A- in 7th grade AAP English, but took Algebra in 7th with a high A will be rated lower than someone with straight A's and M7H in 7th. This is absurd and will surely lead to a reduction in the talent pool of those admitted to TJ.

We'll never know the answer to this (as it should be), but I don't buy that it will be this cut and dried. There will be many more factors that contribute to the overall narrative.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I am betting that you're grossly overestimating the number of students who actually take physics classes beyond AP Physics C, and grossly underestimating the number of TJ-unique courses that students take that don't require significant advancement in math.

And no, Alg2 in 9th grade isn't hyper-advanced. We certainly agree there. But it is a point of fact that an ever-growing number of students each year are artificially and needlessly advanced well-beyond that point for no better reason than to enhance their TJ application - and that's not a behavior that the Admissions Office should be rewarding. The school (which, remember, operates completely independently from the Admissions Office) certainly doesn't want huge numbers of students walking in in Calc BC.

Sure, but it's the kids in the high level physics and math classes who are winning national competitions and establishing the reputation for TJ.

Aside from that, I don't think we necessarily disagree. In the FCPS framework, the smart kids take Algebra in 7th. Algebra in 7th will open doors for higher level math, physics, and computer science classes. The people handling TJ selections should not necessarily reward artificial advancement, but that doesn't mean they should ignore the fact that the kids who don't take Algebra until 8th in FCPS are not the best and brightest FCPS has to offer.

My understanding is that they'll take the top 1.5% from each middle school based on GPA without any credit or boost given to those who take Algebra in 7th rather than M7H. Like, the kid who gets 1 A- in 7th grade AAP English, but took Algebra in 7th with a high A will be rated lower than someone with straight A's and M7H in 7th. This is absurd and will surely lead to a reduction in the talent pool of those admitted to TJ.

Anonymous wrote:
I am betting that you're grossly overestimating the number of students who actually take physics classes beyond AP Physics C, and grossly underestimating the number of TJ-unique courses that students take that don't require significant advancement in math.

And no, Alg2 in 9th grade isn't hyper-advanced. We certainly agree there. But it is a point of fact that an ever-growing number of students each year are artificially and needlessly advanced well-beyond that point for no better reason than to enhance their TJ application - and that's not a behavior that the Admissions Office should be rewarding. The school (which, remember, operates completely independently from the Admissions Office) certainly doesn't want huge numbers of students walking in in Calc BC.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
AP Calc has been moved to a co-req for Physics C.

You are conflating - probably intentionally - the motivation level of the student with the motivation level of the parent. And additionally, making the error of confusing advancement for rigor by claiming that having fewer students taking hyper-advanced classes somehow constitutes "watering down" the school.

Yes, and that means that kids who enter in 9th grade geometry can at best take AP Physics C Senior year. They would be ineligible for any of the physics courses with AP Physics C as a prerequisite.

Algebra I in 7th isn't hyper advanced at all. It's a very low bar. Any kid bright in math who was in AAP or advanced math should have no problems at all with passing IAAT. about 15% of the entire FCPS student body qualifies for Algebra. AAP kids who don't take Algebra in 7th either wanted to take the easier class (not motivated enough for TJ), or they didn't pass the IAAT (not in the top 15% of FCPS students in math).

We'll just have to agree to disagree as to the point of TJ. I view it as a place to allow the hyper-advanced kids to have access to the hyper-advanced classes, so they don't run out of classes at their regular FCPS high school. To me, there's no point in having kids at TJ who can barely take advantage of TJ and instead for the most part take classes that would have been available at their regular high school.

Anonymous wrote:
AP Calc has been moved to a co-req for Physics C.

You are conflating - probably intentionally - the motivation level of the student with the motivation level of the parent. And additionally, making the error of confusing advancement for rigor by claiming that having fewer students taking hyper-advanced classes somehow constitutes "watering down" the school.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Check out the course catalog before you run your mouth about other people's "looks".

......Just did. Literally it's only the higher-order math classes (DiffEQ, Multi, LinAlg, Complex, etc) and the few advanced CS courses that depend on them. There is SO MUCH more in STEM that is unique to TJ and accessible to students who enter at any of the acceptable math levels.

Many of the physics classes have a pre-requisite of AP Physics C, which requires AP calc. Most of the rest require at least AP Physics 1, which would be difficult for kids who aren't at least in pre-calc. The kids in lower level math would end up taking math, physics, and computer science classes that are readily available at their local high school. It makes more sense to me to give the TJ slots to the kids who would take a large load of TJ specialized classes over those who could largely take classes at their local school and maybe only a small handful of TJ specialized classes.

Really, though, the issue is less so that kids would need Algebra by 7th and more that kids who don't take Algebra by 7th either aren't very smart or aren't very motivated. 7th grade Algebra is not at all a high bar to clear in FCPS. If you want to argue that a 7th grade Algebra requirement puts some demographic groups are at a huge disadvantage, then the better answer is to institute tutoring and mentorship programs in 5th and 6th to boost those groups into 7th grade Algebra. It would make much more sense than watering down TJ.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Check out the course catalog before you run your mouth about other people's "looks".

......Just did. Literally it's only the higher-order math classes (DiffEQ, Multi, LinAlg, Complex, etc) and the few advanced CS courses that depend on them. There is SO MUCH more in STEM that is unique to TJ and accessible to students who enter at any of the acceptable math levels.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Posted this on another thread, but the one significant change that you're going to see is in the level of incoming advancement in math for the new freshmen class.

They'll be every bit as INTELLIGENT, MOTIVATED, and CAPABLE - they just won't be walking in ready to take Pre-Calc, BC, and beyond on Day 1. Advancement in math does not necessarily indicate interest, intelligence, or aptitude for STEM - what it indicates is usually opportunity and parental ambition.

This will happen because the admissions process will no longer self-select for students who are this far advanced in math, in part because it does not rely on an exam that significantly favors students who have been exposed to concepts of logic and spatial thinking that are heavily emphasized in a traditional Honors Geometry course.

So you won't see TJ being any less rigorous - you'll just see it slightly less advanced from a pure math perspective.

Disagree. If they're not giving any admissions boost to the kids who passed IAAT and qualified for Algebra in 7th, then they're not going to be as intelligent, motivated, and capable as the kids who did qualify. Really, IAAT is a pretty low bar. If a kid doesn't score 91st percentile, that kid isn't particularly bright in math. If a kid does pass, but chooses to take M7H, then the kid isn't particularly motivated. The new system will admit a bunch of kids who are mediocre in math and will top out in AP Calc as high school seniors while possibly excluding the kids who are highly gifted in math.

Agree with your assessment. I think self-selection will kick in over time and those applying will only be those that that can make it. First couple of years, kids will drop out after freshman year. once this info. spreads through the grapevine, few will apply. By the time this all shakes out, it will be another 5-10 years and a more-than-likely more left-leaning school board and county will decide to shut down the school. Will be good business for the private schools..

Like everyone pointed out, it's the white kids, whose numbers will go up with this approach that will benefit the most. Unless you are a certified genius/nerd (not using that in a negative way), why would any URM even want to go to TJ? Most intelligent to above-average intelligent URM would be better off going to base HS, doing well while having fun and getting into an elite school.

If you look at TJ, only about 50-70 kids get into really elite schools. These fall into the genius/nerd category with a few extroverted geniuses among them. Another 50-100 go to UVA and another 100-200 go to equivalent schools. Most of this group would have done about as well or better at their base high schools. Why do they go to TJ? They all think they are elite. They find out they are not in Sophomore year. By then it's too late to move to base for a variety of reasons.

The reason is because there is a much, MUCH bigger delta in terms of educational opportunities between their base school (which in many cases will come from the southern and eastern end of the county) and TJ than there is between, say, Langley or McLean or Chantilly and TJ. Right now the biggest reasons that Black and Latinx students do not want to apply to TJ - or accept their offers of admission, because that happens more than you think - are because there aren't enough students there who look like them and because there is plenty of WOM evidence within their communities that the ones who go are treated poorly by their white and Asian colleagues who assume them to be part of a racial affirmative action process that hasn't existed for decades.

I don't disagree on most of your reasons as to why they are under-represented at TJ. However, the "observation" about being treated poorly on the premise that they are in due to affirmative action is just a bunch of BS. All I was alluding to was, what's in it for them? The really smart among any demographic will shine at TJ. The really smart among URMs will get the same outcome regardless of which HS they attend. Which do you think they will choose to attend? I bet the majority will chose to stay at base. Heck, if I was guranteed the same outcome at base vs TJ, my DC will not go there! Too much work for the entire family.