Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/going-beyond-intelligence/202309/second-language-immersion-is-not-always-best-school-choice

An alternative perspective on language immersion

Oh that's interesting. Thanks for sharing.

Sounds like bottom line: if you're kid is already doing well AND expressed interest in languages, immersion may be fine but if you've got a SN kid, STEM kid, or kid otherwise very advanced, immersion may not be an ideal choice.

I do think that around here, the immersion programs are just another way to hack the system and have your kid surrounded by other mostly UMC kids or kids whose parents care. Thusly, the immersion has fewer low level students, fewer FARMS students and therefore fewer disruptions. So in the end, if you're in a crummy pyramid, parents are still going to step on each other to gain these pots in Mcps.

Any evidence to support this claim? Are families that enter the lottery for immersion programs disproportionately from high FARMS home schools?

I don’t think we’re going to get access to this data but I would guess that yes, families from high FARMS schools are more interested but, no, this isn’t just a way to game the system. There are always going to be people looking for ways to escape public schools that don’t appear to be as high performing on paper. I also think geographically the location of programs encourages more participation from some school clusters than others. I also would guess there are reasons why people who live in more diverse areas of the country are likely to be some of the people most interested in foreign languages.

But I do disagree that the average immersion family is just trying to hack the system.

True, have seen them heard them. when time for ES, they'll try to escape zoned cluster. Other families though simply want to continue their kid's preschool language skills and seek an immersion program for the language.

When my kid was in the immersion program at RCF, I remember looking at the directory to test this hypothesis. Nearly every kid in the immersion class was from Silver Spring, the Wheaton part of Kensington or up county. I think 2 kids were from Bethesda.

To be fair, though, RCF is adjacent to Silver Spring, and Silver Spring and Wheaton are both extremely densely populated.

RCF is not close to most of Wheaton. The data doesn't lie. Love that pp tried the, BuT WhErE iS tHe DaTa? And it actually exists to support the claim, albeit a few years old. Would be willing to bet my life that still holds true.

Also it is correct that the lottery is closed after K registration.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/going-beyond-intelligence/202309/second-language-immersion-is-not-always-best-school-choice

An alternative perspective on language immersion

Oh that's interesting. Thanks for sharing.

Sounds like bottom line: if you're kid is already doing well AND expressed interest in languages, immersion may be fine but if you've got a SN kid, STEM kid, or kid otherwise very advanced, immersion may not be an ideal choice.

I do think that around here, the immersion programs are just another way to hack the system and have your kid surrounded by other mostly UMC kids or kids whose parents care. Thusly, the immersion has fewer low level students, fewer FARMS students and therefore fewer disruptions. So in the end, if you're in a crummy pyramid, parents are still going to step on each other to gain these pots in Mcps.

Any evidence to support this claim? Are families that enter the lottery for immersion programs disproportionately from high FARMS home schools?

I don’t think we’re going to get access to this data but I would guess that yes, families from high FARMS schools are more interested but, no, this isn’t just a way to game the system. There are always going to be people looking for ways to escape public schools that don’t appear to be as high performing on paper. I also think geographically the location of programs encourages more participation from some school clusters than others. I also would guess there are reasons why people who live in more diverse areas of the country are likely to be some of the people most interested in foreign languages.

But I do disagree that the average immersion family is just trying to hack the system.

True, have seen them heard them. when time for ES, they'll try to escape zoned cluster. Other families though simply want to continue their kid's preschool language skills and seek an immersion program for the language.

When my kid was in the immersion program at RCF, I remember looking at the directory to test this hypothesis. Nearly every kid in the immersion class was from Silver Spring, the Wheaton part of Kensington or up county. I think 2 kids were from Bethesda.

To be fair, though, RCF is adjacent to Silver Spring, and Silver Spring and Wheaton are both extremely densely populated.

True. But it’s also close to Bethesda. Clearly Bethesda families aren’t as interested in getting their kids out of their zoned schools.

Ok. I can only speak for myself, but I had no interest in sending my kids across the county to "escape" our zoned schools. We only applied for immersion programs that were logistically convenient (we live in Silver Spring). We did not get in, which is fine. Honestly if the two way immersion programs had been established before we bought our house, we would have tried to buy in one of those neighborhoods. Overall I think it's unfortunate that kids otherwise get no foreign language instruction until middle school.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/going-beyond-intelligence/202309/second-language-immersion-is-not-always-best-school-choice

An alternative perspective on language immersion

Oh that's interesting. Thanks for sharing.

Sounds like bottom line: if you're kid is already doing well AND expressed interest in languages, immersion may be fine but if you've got a SN kid, STEM kid, or kid otherwise very advanced, immersion may not be an ideal choice.

I do think that around here, the immersion programs are just another way to hack the system and have your kid surrounded by other mostly UMC kids or kids whose parents care. Thusly, the immersion has fewer low level students, fewer FARMS students and therefore fewer disruptions. So in the end, if you're in a crummy pyramid, parents are still going to step on each other to gain these pots in Mcps.

Any evidence to support this claim? Are families that enter the lottery for immersion programs disproportionately from high FARMS home schools?

I don’t think we’re going to get access to this data but I would guess that yes, families from high FARMS schools are more interested but, no, this isn’t just a way to game the system. There are always going to be people looking for ways to escape public schools that don’t appear to be as high performing on paper. I also think geographically the location of programs encourages more participation from some school clusters than others. I also would guess there are reasons why people who live in more diverse areas of the country are likely to be some of the people most interested in foreign languages.

But I do disagree that the average immersion family is just trying to hack the system.

True, have seen them heard them. when time for ES, they'll try to escape zoned cluster. Other families though simply want to continue their kid's preschool language skills and seek an immersion program for the language.

When my kid was in the immersion program at RCF, I remember looking at the directory to test this hypothesis. Nearly every kid in the immersion class was from Silver Spring, the Wheaton part of Kensington or up county. I think 2 kids were from Bethesda.

To be fair, though, RCF is adjacent to Silver Spring, and Silver Spring and Wheaton are both extremely densely populated.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/going-beyond-intelligence/202309/second-language-immersion-is-not-always-best-school-choice

An alternative perspective on language immersion

Oh that's interesting. Thanks for sharing.

Sounds like bottom line: if you're kid is already doing well AND expressed interest in languages, immersion may be fine but if you've got a SN kid, STEM kid, or kid otherwise very advanced, immersion may not be an ideal choice.

I do think that around here, the immersion programs are just another way to hack the system and have your kid surrounded by other mostly UMC kids or kids whose parents care. Thusly, the immersion has fewer low level students, fewer FARMS students and therefore fewer disruptions. So in the end, if you're in a crummy pyramid, parents are still going to step on each other to gain these pots in Mcps.

Any evidence to support this claim? Are families that enter the lottery for immersion programs disproportionately from high FARMS home schools?

I don’t think we’re going to get access to this data but I would guess that yes, families from high FARMS schools are more interested but, no, this isn’t just a way to game the system. There are always going to be people looking for ways to escape public schools that don’t appear to be as high performing on paper. I also think geographically the location of programs encourages more participation from some school clusters than others. I also would guess there are reasons why people who live in more diverse areas of the country are likely to be some of the people most interested in foreign languages.

But I do disagree that the average immersion family is just trying to hack the system.

True, have seen them heard them. when time for ES, they'll try to escape zoned cluster. Other families though simply want to continue their kid's preschool language skills and seek an immersion program for the language.

When my kid was in the immersion program at RCF, I remember looking at the directory to test this hypothesis. Nearly every kid in the immersion class was from Silver Spring, the Wheaton part of Kensington or up county. I think 2 kids were from Bethesda.

To be fair, though, RCF is adjacent to Silver Spring, and Silver Spring and Wheaton are both extremely densely populated.

True. But it’s also close to Bethesda. Clearly Bethesda families aren’t as interested in getting their kids out of their zoned schools.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/going-beyond-intelligence/202309/second-language-immersion-is-not-always-best-school-choice

An alternative perspective on language immersion

Oh that's interesting. Thanks for sharing.

Sounds like bottom line: if you're kid is already doing well AND expressed interest in languages, immersion may be fine but if you've got a SN kid, STEM kid, or kid otherwise very advanced, immersion may not be an ideal choice.

I do think that around here, the immersion programs are just another way to hack the system and have your kid surrounded by other mostly UMC kids or kids whose parents care. Thusly, the immersion has fewer low level students, fewer FARMS students and therefore fewer disruptions. So in the end, if you're in a crummy pyramid, parents are still going to step on each other to gain these pots in Mcps.

Any evidence to support this claim? Are families that enter the lottery for immersion programs disproportionately from high FARMS home schools?

I don’t think we’re going to get access to this data but I would guess that yes, families from high FARMS schools are more interested but, no, this isn’t just a way to game the system. There are always going to be people looking for ways to escape public schools that don’t appear to be as high performing on paper. I also think geographically the location of programs encourages more participation from some school clusters than others. I also would guess there are reasons why people who live in more diverse areas of the country are likely to be some of the people most interested in foreign languages.

But I do disagree that the average immersion family is just trying to hack the system.

True, have seen them heard them. when time for ES, they'll try to escape zoned cluster. Other families though simply want to continue their kid's preschool language skills and seek an immersion program for the language.

When my kid was in the immersion program at RCF, I remember looking at the directory to test this hypothesis. Nearly every kid in the immersion class was from Silver Spring, the Wheaton part of Kensington or up county. I think 2 kids were from Bethesda.

To be fair, though, RCF is adjacent to Silver Spring, and Silver Spring and Wheaton are both extremely densely populated.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/going-beyond-intelligence/202309/second-language-immersion-is-not-always-best-school-choice

An alternative perspective on language immersion

Oh that's interesting. Thanks for sharing.

Sounds like bottom line: if you're kid is already doing well AND expressed interest in languages, immersion may be fine but if you've got a SN kid, STEM kid, or kid otherwise very advanced, immersion may not be an ideal choice.

I do think that around here, the immersion programs are just another way to hack the system and have your kid surrounded by other mostly UMC kids or kids whose parents care. Thusly, the immersion has fewer low level students, fewer FARMS students and therefore fewer disruptions. So in the end, if you're in a crummy pyramid, parents are still going to step on each other to gain these pots in Mcps.

Any evidence to support this claim? Are families that enter the lottery for immersion programs disproportionately from high FARMS home schools?

I don’t think we’re going to get access to this data but I would guess that yes, families from high FARMS schools are more interested but, no, this isn’t just a way to game the system. There are always going to be people looking for ways to escape public schools that don’t appear to be as high performing on paper. I also think geographically the location of programs encourages more participation from some school clusters than others. I also would guess there are reasons why people who live in more diverse areas of the country are likely to be some of the people most interested in foreign languages.

But I do disagree that the average immersion family is just trying to hack the system.

True, have seen them heard them. when time for ES, they'll try to escape zoned cluster. Other families though simply want to continue their kid's preschool language skills and seek an immersion program for the language.

When my kid was in the immersion program at RCF, I remember looking at the directory to test this hypothesis. Nearly every kid in the immersion class was from Silver Spring, the Wheaton part of Kensington or up county. I think 2 kids were from Bethesda.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/going-beyond-intelligence/202309/second-language-immersion-is-not-always-best-school-choice

An alternative perspective on language immersion

Oh that's interesting. Thanks for sharing.

Sounds like bottom line: if you're kid is already doing well AND expressed interest in languages, immersion may be fine but if you've got a SN kid, STEM kid, or kid otherwise very advanced, immersion may not be an ideal choice.

I do think that around here, the immersion programs are just another way to hack the system and have your kid surrounded by other mostly UMC kids or kids whose parents care. Thusly, the immersion has fewer low level students, fewer FARMS students and therefore fewer disruptions. So in the end, if you're in a crummy pyramid, parents are still going to step on each other to gain these pots in Mcps.

Any evidence to support this claim? Are families that enter the lottery for immersion programs disproportionately from high FARMS home schools?

I don’t think we’re going to get access to this data but I would guess that yes, families from high FARMS schools are more interested but, no, this isn’t just a way to game the system. There are always going to be people looking for ways to escape public schools that don’t appear to be as high performing on paper. I also think geographically the location of programs encourages more participation from some school clusters than others. I also would guess there are reasons why people who live in more diverse areas of the country are likely to be some of the people most interested in foreign languages.

But I do disagree that the average immersion family is just trying to hack the system.

True, have seen them heard them. when time for ES, they'll try to escape zoned cluster. Other families though simply want to continue their kid's preschool language skills and seek an immersion program for the language.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/going-beyond-intelligence/202309/second-language-immersion-is-not-always-best-school-choice

An alternative perspective on language immersion

Oh that's interesting. Thanks for sharing.

Sounds like bottom line: if you're kid is already doing well AND expressed interest in languages, immersion may be fine but if you've got a SN kid, STEM kid, or kid otherwise very advanced, immersion may not be an ideal choice.

I do think that around here, the immersion programs are just another way to hack the system and have your kid surrounded by other mostly UMC kids or kids whose parents care. Thusly, the immersion has fewer low level students, fewer FARMS students and therefore fewer disruptions. So in the end, if you're in a crummy pyramid, parents are still going to step on each other to gain these pots in Mcps.

Any evidence to support this claim? Are families that enter the lottery for immersion programs disproportionately from high FARMS home schools?

There was a study on this, but it's more than a decade old at this point and led to concrete policy proposals that were meant to break down the barriers to families putting their child in the immersion lottery.

In the past, the immersion lottery was held before kindergarten registration. So, if you wanted you child in the lottery, you needed to register in your local ES while they were still in Pre-K, get a student ID number, and then put your child in the lottery with that number.

This approach dramatically advantaged families who were "in the know" because the process required you to know someone who would explain the process to you and encourage you to register your child for K well before the normal time.

Then, the sibling link meant that there were very few slots available in some programs for kids who didn't have a sibling in the program.

So, if you were "in the know" enough with your first child to put them in the lottery and win a slot, you were guaranteed a slot for any younger children. At RCF, more than half of the K slots went to siblings at one point. So, you had 20 seats available out of 40 total, and hundreds in the lottery.

As a result of the study mentioned above, they changed the process to partially dismantle the sibling link and to move the immersion lottery to after K registration, as well as ramping up outreach to traditionally underrepresented groups.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/going-beyond-intelligence/202309/second-language-immersion-is-not-always-best-school-choice

An alternative perspective on language immersion

Oh that's interesting. Thanks for sharing.

Sounds like bottom line: if you're kid is already doing well AND expressed interest in languages, immersion may be fine but if you've got a SN kid, STEM kid, or kid otherwise very advanced, immersion may not be an ideal choice.

I do think that around here, the immersion programs are just another way to hack the system and have your kid surrounded by other mostly UMC kids or kids whose parents care. Thusly, the immersion has fewer low level students, fewer FARMS students and therefore fewer disruptions. So in the end, if you're in a crummy pyramid, parents are still going to step on each other to gain these pots in Mcps.

Any evidence to support this claim? Are families that enter the lottery for immersion programs disproportionately from high FARMS home schools?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/going-beyond-intelligence/202309/second-language-immersion-is-not-always-best-school-choice

An alternative perspective on language immersion

Oh that's interesting. Thanks for sharing.

Sounds like bottom line: if you're kid is already doing well AND expressed interest in languages, immersion may be fine but if you've got a SN kid, STEM kid, or kid otherwise very advanced, immersion may not be an ideal choice.

I do think that around here, the immersion programs are just another way to hack the system and have your kid surrounded by other mostly UMC kids or kids whose parents care. Thusly, the immersion has fewer low level students, fewer FARMS students and therefore fewer disruptions. So in the end, if you're in a crummy pyramid, parents are still going to step on each other to gain these pots in Mcps.

Any evidence to support this claim? Are families that enter the lottery for immersion programs disproportionately from high FARMS home schools?

I don’t think we’re going to get access to this data but I would guess that yes, families from high FARMS schools are more interested but, no, this isn’t just a way to game the system. There are always going to be people looking for ways to escape public schools that don’t appear to be as high performing on paper. I also think geographically the location of programs encourages more participation from some school clusters than others. I also would guess there are reasons why people who live in more diverse areas of the country are likely to be some of the people most interested in foreign languages.

But I do disagree that the average immersion family is just trying to hack the system.

True, have seen them heard them. when time for ES, they'll try to escape zoned cluster. Other families though simply want to continue their kid's preschool language skills and seek an immersion program for the language.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/going-beyond-intelligence/202309/second-language-immersion-is-not-always-best-school-choice

An alternative perspective on language immersion

Oh that's interesting. Thanks for sharing.

Sounds like bottom line: if you're kid is already doing well AND expressed interest in languages, immersion may be fine but if you've got a SN kid, STEM kid, or kid otherwise very advanced, immersion may not be an ideal choice.

I do think that around here, the immersion programs are just another way to hack the system and have your kid surrounded by other mostly UMC kids or kids whose parents care. Thusly, the immersion has fewer low level students, fewer FARMS students and therefore fewer disruptions. So in the end, if you're in a crummy pyramid, parents are still going to step on each other to gain these pots in Mcps.

Any evidence to support this claim? Are families that enter the lottery for immersion programs disproportionately from high FARMS home schools?

I don’t think we’re going to get access to this data but I would guess that yes, families from high FARMS schools are more interested but, no, this isn’t just a way to game the system. There are always going to be people looking for ways to escape public schools that don’t appear to be as high performing on paper. I also think geographically the location of programs encourages more participation from some school clusters than others. I also would guess there are reasons why people who live in more diverse areas of the country are likely to be some of the people most interested in foreign languages.

But I do disagree that the average immersion family is just trying to hack the system.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/going-beyond-intelligence/202309/second-language-immersion-is-not-always-best-school-choice

An alternative perspective on language immersion

Oh that's interesting. Thanks for sharing.

Sounds like bottom line: if you're kid is already doing well AND expressed interest in languages, immersion may be fine but if you've got a SN kid, STEM kid, or kid otherwise very advanced, immersion may not be an ideal choice.

I do think that around here, the immersion programs are just another way to hack the system and have your kid surrounded by other mostly UMC kids or kids whose parents care. Thusly, the immersion has fewer low level students, fewer FARMS students and therefore fewer disruptions. So in the end, if you're in a crummy pyramid, parents are still going to step on each other to gain these pots in Mcps.

Any evidence to support this claim? Are families that enter the lottery for immersion programs disproportionately from high FARMS home schools?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/going-beyond-intelligence/202309/second-language-immersion-is-not-always-best-school-choice

An alternative perspective on language immersion

Oh that's interesting. Thanks for sharing.

Sounds like bottom line: if you're kid is already doing well AND expressed interest in languages, immersion may be fine but if you've got a SN kid, STEM kid, or kid otherwise very advanced, immersion may not be an ideal choice.

I do think that around here, the immersion programs are just another way to hack the system and have your kid surrounded by other mostly UMC kids or kids whose parents care. Thusly, the immersion has fewer low level students, fewer FARMS students and therefore fewer disruptions. So in the end, if you're in a crummy pyramid, parents are still going to step on each other to gain these pots in Mcps.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So then how die they screen for those early elementary kids that have dyslexia or another reading disability? Seems like a big waste of resources if the plan for several years is just to ignore low test scores.

I’m sure they still have ways to screen and are tracking and know what is typical and what is not. I just meant that as a parent I didn’t pay close attention to the scores early on.

DP, who has two kids, including one with dyslexia, in a TWI program: they don't do any special screening for learning disabilities. Most kids are identified in second or possibly first grade and they go from there. I know families who have moved their kid with dyslexia to non-TWI schools and families who have stayed with TWI.

Most kids don't have dyslexia. I do think it's on parents to be particularly vigilant if you have a kid in a TWI program, especially if they're at increased risk for dyslexia.

From the International Dyslexia Association:

https://dyslexiaida.org/dyslexia-basics-2/

“perhaps as many as 15–20% of the population as a whole—have some of the symptoms of dyslexia, including slow or inaccurate reading, poor spelling, poor writing, or mixing up similar words. Not all of these will qualify for special education, but they are likely to struggle with many aspects of academic learning and are likely to benefit from systematic, explicit, instruction in reading, writing, and language.”

Note that ALL children will learn to read using an explicit, systemic curriculum. MCPS is still struggling to do this in non-immersion programs and is even further behind in immersion programs. Any resources for reading lie mostly in K-2. It’s a huge disadvantage to ignore these issues during those years just because it’s an immersion program. But I guess if you have the privilege to navigate the MCPS school choice process you must have the resources to supplement academic instruction outside of school.

You may not be able to hear this from your very high horse, but my immersion kid actually got explicit phonics instruction in the target language, as did all of their peers. It turns out that phonics instruction is actually easier in languages where letters and phenomes tend to follow predictable rules.

+1

My dyslexic DC did very well in the immersion program long ago, and in fact is in graduate school abroad, where all of the work is in the second language.

Anonymous wrote:https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/going-beyond-intelligence/202309/second-language-immersion-is-not-always-best-school-choice

An alternative perspective on language immersion