Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Oh, and also, I would never try to have a conversation with a friend about the specific merits of a given article without reading the article. The content, sure — “oh yes, Charles Mann argues that the population of the Americas before Columbus was much larger than we thought” but not “Charles Mann has this beautifully lyrical description of Amazonia...” (I’d immediately go “ooh lemme see.”)

And what if- hear me out- this exact thing happens to kids and they go “wait let me read that” and then they too are doing extra reading just because they were curious.

I mean, great, but you’re making it sound like the best thing that could come out of your class are kids reading on their own, which as the kid who would have preferred to read her own book in the library than go to English class (and whose kid is the same!) makes me wonder why it should be a required course. But that’s cool, I was already pretty sold on a classical curriculum for my kids.

You don’t think English should be a required course? What’s your idea of a classical curriculum without reading and writing?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Oh, and also, I would never try to have a conversation with a friend about the specific merits of a given article without reading the article. The content, sure — “oh yes, Charles Mann argues that the population of the Americas before Columbus was much larger than we thought” but not “Charles Mann has this beautifully lyrical description of Amazonia...” (I’d immediately go “ooh lemme see.”)

And what if- hear me out- this exact thing happens to kids and they go “wait let me read that” and then they too are doing extra reading just because they were curious.

I mean, great, but you’re making it sound like the best thing that could come out of your class are kids reading on their own, which as the kid who would have preferred to read her own book in the library than go to English class (and whose kid is the same!) makes me wonder why it should be a required course. But that’s cool, I was already pretty sold on a classical curriculum for my kids.

Anonymous wrote:Oh, and also, I would never try to have a conversation with a friend about the specific merits of a given article without reading the article. The content, sure — “oh yes, Charles Mann argues that the population of the Americas before Columbus was much larger than we thought” but not “Charles Mann has this beautifully lyrical description of Amazonia...” (I’d immediately go “ooh lemme see.”)

And what if- hear me out- this exact thing happens to kids and they go “wait let me read that” and then they too are doing extra reading just because they were curious.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Also, if it sounds confusing and unworkable, just think of it this way: I don’t know exactly how my pilot flies my plane. I know he knows, but I don’t. If I have surgery I get at a basic level what’s happening but my surgeon is the one who knows what’s going on and all the working parts and moving pieces and they both always have training, a plan, and a team working with them. So if this sounds murky and weird to you, know that it’s much more manageable and sensical to me and other teachers who do it. We aren’t just winging it!

I’ve had enough terrible English teachers that this is honestly not reassuring.

Believe me, this thread is ample proof how bad most of your English teachers were.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Hate U Give would be an amazing choice for them to read AND deals with the same themes of Mockingbird in a much better, more relevant way.

This thread has really been illuminating. Specifically because I trust kids to own their reading choices and pick books that matter to them and would like to give them that freedom I’m seen as “berating” them (?) and, paradoxically, NOT trusting them. I explicitly do trust them to pick what’s best *for them*. If Mockingbird works for Kid A, great. If THUG works for Kid B, great! But I didn’t make either kid pick either book. Truly surprising to me that parents would see kids getting ownership over their education like this and think “that’s terrible, she should make them read (see: Sparknote) Crime and Punishment.”

Choosing a book or two...fine. But not the whole class. I would be furious if my kid's English teacher did that. It might work for a few, but it won't work for so many kids. You are there to challenge and teach my kids, not just make them happy that they don't have to read difficult and "boring" books. Kids get to choose what books to read on their own...you are the English teacher, not the librarian.

And what I see as teaching and challenging them is what you see as not teaching at all, simply because I let them pick the book, which is good to know.

Anonymous wrote:Also, if it sounds confusing and unworkable, just think of it this way: I don’t know exactly how my pilot flies my plane. I know he knows, but I don’t. If I have surgery I get at a basic level what’s happening but my surgeon is the one who knows what’s going on and all the working parts and moving pieces and they both always have training, a plan, and a team working with them. So if this sounds murky and weird to you, know that it’s much more manageable and sensical to me and other teachers who do it. We aren’t just winging it!

I’ve had enough terrible English teachers that this is honestly not reassuring.

Anonymous wrote:The Hate U Give would be an amazing choice for them to read AND deals with the same themes of Mockingbird in a much better, more relevant way.

This thread has really been illuminating. Specifically because I trust kids to own their reading choices and pick books that matter to them and would like to give them that freedom I’m seen as “berating” them (?) and, paradoxically, NOT trusting them. I explicitly do trust them to pick what’s best *for them*. If Mockingbird works for Kid A, great. If THUG works for Kid B, great! But I didn’t make either kid pick either book. Truly surprising to me that parents would see kids getting ownership over their education like this and think “that’s terrible, she should make them read (see: Sparknote) Crime and Punishment.”

Choosing a book or two...fine. But not the whole class. I would be furious if my kid's English teacher did that. It might work for a few, but it won't work for so many kids. You are there to challenge and teach my kids, not just make them happy that they don't have to read difficult and "boring" books. Kids get to choose what books to read on their own...you are the English teacher, not the librarian.

Oh, and also, I would never try to have a conversation with a friend about the specific merits of a given article without reading the article. The content, sure — “oh yes, Charles Mann argues that the population of the Americas before Columbus was much larger than we thought” but not “Charles Mann has this beautifully lyrical description of Amazonia...” (I’d immediately go “ooh lemme see.”)

Also, if it sounds confusing and unworkable, just think of it this way: I don’t know exactly how my pilot flies my plane. I know he knows, but I don’t. If I have surgery I get at a basic level what’s happening but my surgeon is the one who knows what’s going on and all the working parts and moving pieces and they both always have training, a plan, and a team working with them. So if this sounds murky and weird to you, know that it’s much more manageable and sensical to me and other teachers who do it. We aren’t just winging it!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What district are you in that doesn't have mandatory books? You must not teach AP or maybe even not honors if you don't have to do some standards. I think you are focusing on the wrong thing. You should intermingle some classics, not just YA novels that don't require any skill in reading. The Hate U Give, for instance, is a phenomenal book, and a great topic - but in terms of difficulty or challenge it is severely lacking. They should have to learn how to conquer a challenging text, written in a different time period. Only being interested in today and today's specific type of dialogue / writing / vocabulary will not offer any growth.

I’m not going point by point but: no. You don’t understand literacy and education. Please don’t tell me how to do my job... just answer the question I asked.

DP. This is an incredibly rude response. The pp's point about kids needing to be able to handle challenging texts seems valid. It's fine that you choose not to have any mandatory books. As a parent of a teen who will pick easy books every time, I see validity in pp's point. Also, if you come on a forum like this to ask questions, you're going to get opinions about how to do your job if you given details on how you plan to do your job. I've never seen a thread that only stuck to answering the OP's question. I'd love to know why you think pp's point isn't valid, based on your understanding of literacy and education.

It’s just an old fashioned way to approach reading. Do we want kids to just read “challenging” texts or so we want them to connect with a story, ENJOY reading, learn more about the human experience, realize that they too have stories worth sharing? Some kids will gravitate toward texts that are written in challenging language but are emotionally empty for them. Some kids will gravitate to books that are written more simplistically but grapple with some really big ideas. The amount of big words in a book doesn’t determine its value for learning. Books are about stories, about helping kids refine their own writing style, about making them ask questions and realize truths about life and humanity. Books don’t have to be a “challenging text” for that to happen and very often the challenging texts directly hinder those things. The beauty of choice reading is if your kid DOES want or like the challenging text or classics- they can pick those. For the kids for whom those will shut off a joy of reading, they have other options.

I get why people who were in high school 20-30 years ago think school should still look like that, but education research particularly related to literacy shows that this is the better approach for kids. Look up Kylene Beers and Penny Kittle- they are some of the big name pioneers of this newer approach to reading and literacy.

Since when did HS English become about getting kids to enjoy reading? That is the goal of elementary and middle school language arts programs and of course home/parenting. And, btw, some kids just don’t like reading books and that’s fine. It’s not a character flaw, people. Some very smart, brilliant people don’t like reading for pleasure.

Regarding reading selections: I think a teacher ought to have select books planned for the year w/ engaging, thoughtful group discussions. Kids challenging each other’s ideas and debating and all that fun stuff. In our elementary school, kids pick their own books and analyze, write about character development, setting, theme, etc etc. In high school, a more lively engaging shared experience over one text is more appealing and memorable. And if your concern centers around white or patriarchal characters, pick some pieces from black authors. So many good onces to choose from. Don’t ignore history. These kids don’t get much of it, as is.

Sh yes but it’s not just “pick your own.”

Find a nonfiction book = we work on decoding nonfiction texts and those writing skills.

Find a book on a social issue of interest = we discuss those ideas (many students will pick overlapping topics) and do writing that addresses and aligns with this type of reading

Find a fiction book by a BIPOC author = yay, we can talk about essential questions and symbolism and imagery and also your reading list is diversified and you’re reading an author you might not have otherwise!

Find a book that is controversial or sometimes banned = why would this be banned? Who controls stories? Which stories do or don’t have value? Why do we tell stories at all?

Find a memoir = how does this author use writing craft? Can you use it as a mentor for your own writing?

It isn’t a total free for all, believe me! There’s a plan and the assigned genre/book type would correlate to standards and skills we have to cover in the curriculum.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So...what do you do in class when everyone is reading a different book? Granted I was in MS almost twenty years ago at a private school, but as I recall we did a lot of discussing the plot, symbolism, character motivation, close reading, etc. Or is literary analysis now outdated as well? It seems like “read something you love to develop a sense of joy with the written word” is for SSR in elementary school, not middle or HS English class. What’s changed?

(PS: we read Kindred in seventh grade and idk if it counts as a classic but it was great!)

They can still discuss all those in the context of their own book. Track YOUR character’s development. What motivates them? What do their words and choices reveal about them? How does YOUR book use imagery or setting to impact the story? They can do all that and have discussions around big questions (e.g., “Who or what determines whose stories get told?”) in the context of their own book. All books have plot, characters, dialogue, literary devices- they’re just applying their knowledge of those things to analyze how they work in their book and to what effect.

Right, but what does the classroom actually look like? One kid is talking about the hero’s journey as illustrated by Frodo’s character arc or whatever, how are any of the other students who aren’t reading LotR going to connect with that? “Hey, look at this cool way light and dark imagery shows up again in this climactic scene, reminding me of the scene where the protagonist was introduced...it’s on page 73 of a book I’m the only one who has.”

Look, cards on the table, I think there’s a certain corpus of material people need to be familiar with in order to engage productively with those big questions. Never mind with works of literature! You’re not going to understand what Derek Walcott is saying if you haven’t read the Odyssey, and frankly reading Ulysses helps too. “Whose story gets told” is, IMO, a question that you need to know a lot of history to answer and I’m not convinced you can provide appropriate context for students who are reading twenty five different books. I mean, fine, if you want to do the Harlem Renaissance not everyone needs to be reading Invisible Man, but I can’t imagine a productive classroom conversation between someone reading Invisible Man and someone reading the latest dystopian YA. This may be a failure of imagination on my part! So I’m curious how you envision it going.

I agree with parts of what you are saying. It IS more challenging to teach when students aren’t all reading the same book. However, great schools donthat all the time. Sometimes, they cluster students in discussion groups around books with a common theme. I don’t teach English, but in my SS class students work on individualized research topics, reading totally different primary and secondary sources, but manage to have group discussions about common themes. Part of the work that has to be done upfront is teaching students how to have this type of discussion. It’s a skill of lifelong real world value.

I’m OP and this is why I said it would definitely take a little more work on my part... it’s giving kids tools and a framework to lead their own learning and discussion without the normal training wheels in place.

Pp, imagine a topic or interest in the news. Gun violence let’s say. You mention to a friend one article you read. They say oh, here’s the one I read. You discuss the merits of each, how the author made the point, was it persuasive? Expository? Opinion? How do you know? Were the tools they used effective? You could have a very rich discussion having not ever necessarily read the other article. And you might even feel compelled during or afterward to go read that article because the discussion was that interesting. We do this ALL the time as adults! I believe kids can too. “I picked a book about poverty. Here’s how my book handles it.” “And here’s how my book handles that same issue.”

PP you’ve been replying to. Okay, you’ve convinced me! I see definite value is saying “read a book that deals with poverty” or “read an immigrant memoir” or whatever. But surely there’s also value in familiarity with certain specific and highly influential works (I’m thinking more like Homer and Shakespeare than Gatsby), and value in the kind of close textual analysis you can’t really do when students aren’t reading the same text? I guess what I’m saying is that I, a rando on DCUM, would be annoyed if my kid’s whole MS/HS English class were “pick your own and we’ll talk about big questions.”

The Hate U Give would be an amazing choice for them to read AND deals with the same themes of Mockingbird in a much better, more relevant way.

This thread has really been illuminating. Specifically because I trust kids to own their reading choices and pick books that matter to them and would like to give them that freedom I’m seen as “berating” them (?) and, paradoxically, NOT trusting them. I explicitly do trust them to pick what’s best *for them*. If Mockingbird works for Kid A, great. If THUG works for Kid B, great! But I didn’t make either kid pick either book. Truly surprising to me that parents would see kids getting ownership over their education like this and think “that’s terrible, she should make them read (see: Sparknote) Crime and Punishment.”

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m a mom to three voracious highly advanced readers. My kids will often read 8-10 hours a day for fun on a weekend or summer day and typically 4-6 hours a day on a school day. I think some choice is good but I also think there’s a lot of value in having limits on those choices. I understand your saying the research shows that encouraging reading is better than defining what they should read, but I think that research is primarily directed at reluctant readers and doesn’t fully meet the needs of enthusiastic and advanced readers.

I’m curious and would like to go further here. How do you think this would not benefit your kids, who are voracious readers? Let’s say they came to me and said I’ve read XYZ, I hate ABC books, my favorite authors and books are L, M, N. What can you suggest?” I could give them some options. They know this about themselves because they have rich reading lives already, which is great. But what if I assigned a book to the whole class that they had read already, or was way too easy/simplistic for them? Would they not feel bored and maybe even disengaged? How could I convince them that book mattered and HAD to be read? I’m not pushing back, I just am interested in how you perceive choice could hurt your kids. If anything, I think the highly advanced ones are some of the few who would particularly benefit.

DP- my DS is an advance reader (not voracious, but advanced). At home, I do a mixture of things. In the summer, I tell DS roughly how many books he should read--caveat that this is flexible, depending on the length and complexity of the books, timing, etc. but it is to let him know that reading won't be sacrificed for video games and youtube (he is a young teen). It's a very achievable amount even if he was reading the bare minimum. I tell him that I would like for him to choose a non fiction and a realistic fiction (both outside of his comfort zone)--totally his choice which books. The rest is up to him as long as it's new material or revisiting complex, older material (reading the same graphic novel over and over doesn't count). I try to encourage him toward some difficult texts that I think he might enjoy, but I don't push it. Overall, it works well as long as I'm not pushy and will entertain modifications. So, if he's reading all of Tolkien and it will take up time--great, he can take all the reading time for that.
The key is to suggest, but not push or force. My DS is very clear that pushing and forcing will turn reading into homework and he won't be interested. Engagement and reading advancement is what I am trying to achieve, so obviously being coercive is counterproductive.
I guess you could call what I do, guided choices-- some kids will pick up anything and read it. They need little to no guidance- they are mature. Others, even the advanced readers, need a framework. OP, you asked what our teens are reading. I mentioned a few earlier - but the dystopian fiction is very popular. I've even parlayed it into similar, better books-- Orwell, Bradbury, etc. My DS also read The Haunting of Hill House-- he didn't see the Netflix version (it's a little scary for him still) but knew it was popular and wanted to read the book. If you want to engage a reluctant reader-- Neil Shusterman is fantastic.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another teacher here just chiming in to say that you sound like a very good and thoughtful teacher. I imagine you work at a private school? Since you seem to have flexibility in what you teach.

Nope, public. But a great school and a great department which means my colleagues and I get a lot of freedom to teach the kids in the way we think is best and we are constantly collaborating. Current research shows that students read more when given choice. My classes are built around readers and writers workshops - it’s just that this year I would like to move away from free choice independent reading during class to doing all our literature study around books of choice. If that gets them to read more, that’s the important part. They don’t need to be forced into Gatsby or Mockingbird.

Thank god you teach at public. I was worried that you might be my kid's teacher. I'm sorry, but any English teacher who doesn't understand why kids should be "forced" to read classics like Gatsby, Mockingbird, and Grapes of Wrath--even if those books make them uncomfortable--is not a good teacher. Life is uncomfortable, and all kids need to learn that. I'm pretty sure a book like Mockingbird makes everyone who reads it uncomfortable. That's why it's such a good book. I honestly feel sad for your students that you're depriving them of that opportunity.

Mockingbird is harmful to students of color. It gives students the idea that Atticus is a White savior. Tom is entirely dehumanized. Nobody is deprived of reading any book... they can choose Mockingbird if they want. They can also always read it at home with you. But I won’t MAKE kids read a book that is harmful to them.

Then talk about that with them. TEACH THEM. That's what you're paid to do. Wouldn't it be better to read it together as a group so you can point out all the problems you've identified with the book then having them read it on their own and draw these awful conclusions about Atticus and Tom? Stop avoiding difficult issues. You're like the constitutional law professor who doesn't want to teach Roe v. Wade or the criminal law professor who doesn't want to teach rape law because those topics are harmful to women. Buck up and be a good teacher who challenges her students.