Anonymous wrote:

I don't resent Langley, but was responding to the suggestion that, due to geography alone, Langley will always be a school that serves next to no lower-income kids. That's just BS, and I pointed out how changing a few of the boundaries could add some diversity to Langley and result in net shorter transportation times for the affected students. The main thing FCPS needs to do with Langley right now is make use of the empty seats, which are an affront to the taxpayers who paid for the school's renovation and reasonably could expect FCPS to take advantage of that.

I'm starting to think that you are either deliberately obtuse, or just have a knee-jerk, negative reaction to anything that could be perceived as increasing diversity at the county's segregated schools. It doesn't seem to matter to you that the primary drivers of the types of changes being discussed here are making efficient use of existing capacity and reducing the amount of time that kids spend on buses. As long as they could also be viewed as promoting greater diversity or SES balance, you're going to object.

No. My own kids' school is diverse and I like that. I just don't think you can artificially create a diverse school. And, from my own experience in teaching in a school that was bused for this purpose, I know that there is a down-side. For most of my teaching career, I taught in a school in another system where the kids ranged in race and socio-economic background, and I liked that. But, the kids also lived in the same community. And, FWIW, I think AAP centers in Fairfax County are not at all helpful, and are unnecessary. I very much think they contribute to this whole thing.

I do not think that rearranging schools just for the sake of socio-economic diversity would be helpful. And, under your plan, that is the only purpose for switching Langley boundaries around.

To me, community is extremely important in schools. With Fairfax's traffic and commutes, proximity is even more important to create a community in a school. When you skip over one neighborhood to send another to a school in order to achieve diversity, it is artificial and takes away the community support.

As I said before, I don't think the Langley situation is ideal. But, rearranging the boundaries and picking and choosing the students just to achieve diversity is artificial. From looking at the boundary map, it appears that the neighborhoods are contiguous--and that makes sense. I do see some glitches--especially those neighborhoods on the other side of Route 7 that are close to Herndon High. I do think Forestville should go there in the future, but right now, it would help neither Herndon or Langley. Herndon has Aldrin and Armstrong which are better located for Herndon than South Lakes.

Wait until the new school is built.

To say "I just don't think you can artificially create a diverse school" overlooks the obvious. The current boundaries reflect a whole series of historical judgments that are no less artificial than what might result if the current boundaries were changed in certain respects. Sometimes those judgments reinforced the lack of diversity at a school, as in Langley's case, and in other cases those judgments promoted diversity at a school.

In addition, it's circular to suggest that community is extremely important in schools, and should be a priority to maintain, without acknowledging that sense of community may exist primarily because of the existing school assignments. Great Falls is never so much of the same community as McLean as when there's some talk of redistricting kids out of a high school in McLean (i.e., Langley) to another school like Herndon. Then they are a single community.

I don't think anyone should be moved out of Langley - only into Langley to fill the empty seats - before the new school is built. So we may be in broader agreement than you realize. But when that new school is built, FCPS would be remiss not to look at the existing boundaries throughout much of northern and western Fairfax and consider whether it's possible to accomplish several objectives (efficient use of existing seats, reducing transportation times, and balancing demographics) at the same time. It should not shy away from considering demographics as a relevant consideration merely because someone might complain that any such effort is artificial, especially when doing so could reduce the time and distance students have to travel to get to their assigned schools.

I don't resent Langley, but was responding to the suggestion that, due to geography alone, Langley will always be a school that serves next to no lower-income kids. That's just BS, and I pointed out how changing a few of the boundaries could add some diversity to Langley and result in net shorter transportation times for the affected students. The main thing FCPS needs to do with Langley right now is make use of the empty seats, which are an affront to the taxpayers who paid for the school's renovation and reasonably could expect FCPS to take advantage of that.

I'm starting to think that you are either deliberately obtuse, or just have a knee-jerk, negative reaction to anything that could be perceived as increasing diversity at the county's segregated schools. It doesn't seem to matter to you that the primary drivers of the types of changes being discussed here are making efficient use of existing capacity and reducing the amount of time that kids spend on buses. As long as they could also be viewed as promoting greater diversity or SES balance, you're going to object.

No. My own kids' school is diverse and I like that. I just don't think you can artificially create a diverse school. And, from my own experience in teaching in a school that was bused for this purpose, I know that there is a down-side. For most of my teaching career, I taught in a school in another system where the kids ranged in race and socio-economic background, and I liked that. But, the kids also lived in the same community. And, FWIW, I think AAP centers in Fairfax County are not at all helpful, and are unnecessary. I very much think they contribute to this whole thing.

I do not think that rearranging schools just for the sake of socio-economic diversity would be helpful. And, under your plan, that is the only purpose for switching Langley boundaries around.

To me, community is extremely important in schools. With Fairfax's traffic and commutes, proximity is even more important to create a community in a school. When you skip over one neighborhood to send another to a school in order to achieve diversity, it is artificial and takes away the community support.

As I said before, I don't think the Langley situation is ideal. But, rearranging the boundaries and picking and choosing the students just to achieve diversity is artificial. From looking at the boundary map, it appears that the neighborhoods are contiguous--and that makes sense. I do see some glitches--especially those neighborhoods on the other side of Route 7 that are close to Herndon High. I do think Forestville should go there in the future, but right now, it would help neither Herndon or Langley. Herndon has Aldrin and Armstrong which are better located for Herndon than South Lakes.

Wait until the new school is built.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We bus kids for the AAP program and no one bitches

Lol. Great point.

Lots of people complain about it.
You've just been talking to the other people.

Anonymous wrote:We bus kids for the AAP program and no one bitches

Lol. Great point.

Anonymous wrote:

I have not mentioned Aldrin or Armstrong in prior posts, and know where Forest Edge is located (i.e., closer to Langley than Forestville).

So, you think it is okay to switch schools around just for the sake of demographics? Forest Edge would well more than double their current commute. (And, I just checked and that is on a Sunday. I suspect it would be much, much worse on a school day.) I have no idea how that community would feel about it. But, one thing for sure, you would be taking them out of their own community--where they shop, do sports, etc.

I agree that it is logical for Forestville to go to Herndon But, not by kicking out Aldrin and Armstrong. It sounds to me like your goal is to change the demographics of Langley.

I do agree that Langley is lopsided. But, in reality, that is due to the location and the community around it. That is just the way it is. It is at the edge of Fairfax County. My kids high school is far more diverse. It does not have as many languages offered as Langley--but. that is probably reflective of its demand. For the number of kids, the number of language teachers is probably in ratio to Langley, but fewer languages are offered.

I gather that McLean and Marshall are doing just fine. Why do you resent Langley so much? What will be the result of doing this? Taking poorer kids further away from their neighborhoods will not increase their opportunities for extra-curricular activities. I know this from experience. So, Langley kids have more extras--so what? Do you think changing its demographics will give those opportunities to others? Very likely, it will just result in fewer languages at Langley--but, I guess, to you, that's the goal.

I don't resent Langley, but was responding to the suggestion that, due to geography alone, Langley will always be a school that serves next to no lower-income kids. That's just BS, and I pointed out how changing a few of the boundaries could add some diversity to Langley and result in net shorter transportation times for the affected students. The main thing FCPS needs to do with Langley right now is make use of the empty seats, which are an affront to the taxpayers who paid for the school's renovation and reasonably could expect FCPS to take advantage of that.

I'm starting to think that you are either deliberately obtuse, or just have a knee-jerk, negative reaction to anything that could be perceived as increasing diversity at the county's segregated schools. It doesn't seem to matter to you that the primary drivers of the types of changes being discussed here are making efficient use of existing capacity and reducing the amount of time that kids spend on buses. As long as they could also be viewed as promoting greater diversity or SES balance, you're going to object.

We bus kids for the AAP program and no one bitches

I have not mentioned Aldrin or Armstrong in prior posts, and know where Forest Edge is located (i.e., closer to Langley than Forestville).

So, you think it is okay to switch schools around just for the sake of demographics? Forest Edge would well more than double their current commute. (And, I just checked and that is on a Sunday. I suspect it would be much, much worse on a school day.) I have no idea how that community would feel about it. But, one thing for sure, you would be taking them out of their own community--where they shop, do sports, etc.

I agree that it is logical for Forestville to go to Herndon But, not by kicking out Aldrin and Armstrong. It sounds to me like your goal is to change the demographics of Langley.

I do agree that Langley is lopsided. But, in reality, that is due to the location and the community around it. That is just the way it is. It is at the edge of Fairfax County. My kids high school is far more diverse. It does not have as many languages offered as Langley--but. that is probably reflective of its demand. For the number of kids, the number of language teachers is probably in ratio to Langley, but fewer languages are offered.

I gather that McLean and Marshall are doing just fine. Why do you resent Langley so much? What will be the result of doing this? Taking poorer kids further away from their neighborhoods will not increase their opportunities for extra-curricular activities. I know this from experience. So, Langley kids have more extras--so what? Do you think changing its demographics will give those opportunities to others? Very likely, it will just result in fewer languages at Langley--but, I guess, to you, that's the goal.

Anonymous wrote:

DP here.

You asked, rhetorically, what difference it makes that Langley is a wealthier school. It makes a difference in that students at Langley have access to a lot of extra-curricular activities that students at other schools do not have. It has also meant that Langley convinced FCPS to allow the school to offer a much wider range of foreign languages than FCPS offers at other schools.

The term "busing" typically is only used pejoratively, and when it means that kids travel by bus from a lower-income neighborhood to a school in a higher-income neighborhood, or vice versa. But as you note at the beginning of your post, FCPS is currently putting kids on buses for long distances to get them from Great Falls, near the Loudoun border, to Langley, near the Arlington border. This also involves "busing" and its own form of social engineering.

If FCPS were committed to increasing the diversity at Langley, there are any number of things it could do. The easiest would be to redistrict some of the Tysons-area apartments zoned for McLean and/or Marshall to Langley, which has excess capacity and no apartments. That would be quick and expedient, and the kids moved to Langley from those neighborhoods would still have shorter bus rides to Langley than the kids in Great Falls who attend Langley.

The more complicated approach would involve larger redistricting involving more schools. For example, Forestville and Great Falls could be moved out of Langley to Herndon, Aldrin and Armstrong could be moved out of Herndon to South Lakes, and Forest Edge could be moved out of South Lakes to Langley along with some of the Tysons apartments. Most of the students affected in this scenario would end up with shorter bus rides than they currently have, or slightly longer bus rides that would still be much shorter than the current bus rides of students from Great Falls to Langley.

Actually, busing is a real term which has real consequences. It relates to artificially creating socio-economic equity--but nothing artificial works. It usually involves busing kids away from their own communities. I've no problem with shifting kids if it is natural and logical. But, to send kids past other kids and switch around makes no sense.

And, why does Langley get more foreign languages than other schools? I assume there is a very simple explanation: there is a demand for it. Lots of schools drop a foreign language because there is not enough interest. I suspect that if you switch out kids at Langley, it might change what is available because there will not be enough interest to fill those classes. Who does that help? This happens in all high schools. And, it may not necessarily be a foreign language, but classes are slotted according to desire and interest in addition to requirements.

From what I read on here, Langley is underenrolled and McLean is overenrolled. I agree that it would make sense to send some of McLean's to Langley, in that instance--but, I am not familiar with the traffic and local geography.

But, to play fruitbasket turnover just to "equalize" will not work.

I am curious, though, as to what you would do with middle school. Would you send Forestville and Great Falls to Herndon Middle? Where would they go?
Are you the pp who wanted Aldrin and Armstrong at South Lakes because they are in Reston? You do know that Forest Edge is also in Reston?

I had no doubt you'd jump into the weeds and avoid discussing the larger issue. See PP.

The current contours of the Langley district, shaped largely by privilege, are as artificial as other boundaries that might be crafted.

Some of the demand for foreign languages at Langley is supply-induced, and not just responsive to demand.

While I agree that just shuffling boundaries for the mere sake of "equalizing" is problematic, that's so far away from what we've currently got - boundaries that have been shaped and then refined over the years to concentrate privilege and poverty - that it's hard to take that as anything other than a straw-man response.

I have not mentioned Aldrin or Armstrong in prior posts, and know where Forest Edge is located (i.e., closer to Langley than Forestville).

Anonymous wrote:That makes too much sense, PP LOL

I'm sure someone could say the numbers wouldn't work out quite right, or that some kids would end up on a bus longer.

But the point is that some redistricting is possible that would balance demographics and still keep the school zones largely contiguous. The notion that Langley must always will be 1.5% FARMS because it's in a rich part of the county isn't correct.

DP here.

You asked, rhetorically, what difference it makes that Langley is a wealthier school. It makes a difference in that students at Langley have access to a lot of extra-curricular activities that students at other schools do not have. It has also meant that Langley convinced FCPS to allow the school to offer a much wider range of foreign languages than FCPS offers at other schools.

The term "busing" typically is only used pejoratively, and when it means that kids travel by bus from a lower-income neighborhood to a school in a higher-income neighborhood, or vice versa. But as you note at the beginning of your post, FCPS is currently putting kids on buses for long distances to get them from Great Falls, near the Loudoun border, to Langley, near the Arlington border. This also involves "busing" and its own form of social engineering.

If FCPS were committed to increasing the diversity at Langley, there are any number of things it could do. The easiest would be to redistrict some of the Tysons-area apartments zoned for McLean and/or Marshall to Langley, which has excess capacity and no apartments. That would be quick and expedient, and the kids moved to Langley from those neighborhoods would still have shorter bus rides to Langley than the kids in Great Falls who attend Langley.

The more complicated approach would involve larger redistricting involving more schools. For example, Forestville and Great Falls could be moved out of Langley to Herndon, Aldrin and Armstrong could be moved out of Herndon to South Lakes, and Forest Edge could be moved out of South Lakes to Langley along with some of the Tysons apartments. Most of the students affected in this scenario would end up with shorter bus rides than they currently have, or slightly longer bus rides that would still be much shorter than the current bus rides of students from Great Falls to Langley.

Actually, busing is a real term which has real consequences. It relates to artificially creating socio-economic equity--but nothing artificial works. It usually involves busing kids away from their own communities. I've no problem with shifting kids if it is natural and logical. But, to send kids past other kids and switch around makes no sense.

And, why does Langley get more foreign languages than other schools? I assume there is a very simple explanation: there is a demand for it. Lots of schools drop a foreign language because there is not enough interest. I suspect that if you switch out kids at Langley, it might change what is available because there will not be enough interest to fill those classes. Who does that help? This happens in all high schools. And, it may not necessarily be a foreign language, but classes are slotted according to desire and interest in addition to requirements.

From what I read on here, Langley is underenrolled and McLean is overenrolled. I agree that it would make sense to send some of McLean's to Langley, in that instance--but, I am not familiar with the traffic and local geography.

But, to play fruitbasket turnover just to "equalize" will not work.

I am curious, though, as to what you would do with middle school. Would you send Forestville and Great Falls to Herndon Middle? Where would they go?
Are you the pp who wanted Aldrin and Armstrong at South Lakes because they are in Reston? You do know that Forest Edge is also in Reston?

That makes too much sense, PP LOL

Anonymous wrote:

The disparity between poor and rich is ridiculous in fcps. It's time for the school board to stand up to the interests of the rich and draw boundaries in an equitable way.

I'd love to know what you think is "equitable."

Seriously, I'd like to know what you think will be resolved. I only know Langley from when we went there for sporting events. I understand that it is a wealthier school. But, what difference does that make? I think it ridiculous that kids are coming from the county line with Loudoun, but there really is not presently another alternative.

I taught in a school that was bused. This is not a good model for lots of reasons--the main one being that the lower income people lived further away and had a hard time getting to the school. And, then you have "bused" and "local." That does not work well either. Community based schools work much better. I speak from experience.

So, where are the low income kids for Langley going to come from? Herndon? Reston? Falls Church?

I am not for socio-economic divisions. But, you cannot legislate it. There are a number of successful schools in Fairfax County that are well mixed. But, the kids live in the communities.

Busing does not work.

DP here.

You asked, rhetorically, what difference it makes that Langley is a wealthier school. It makes a difference in that students at Langley have access to a lot of extra-curricular activities that students at other schools do not have. It has also meant that Langley convinced FCPS to allow the school to offer a much wider range of foreign languages than FCPS offers at other schools.

The term "busing" typically is only used pejoratively, and when it means that kids travel by bus from a lower-income neighborhood to a school in a higher-income neighborhood, or vice versa. But as you note at the beginning of your post, FCPS is currently putting kids on buses for long distances to get them from Great Falls, near the Loudoun border, to Langley, near the Arlington border. This also involves "busing" and its own form of social engineering.

If FCPS were committed to increasing the diversity at Langley, there are any number of things it could do. The easiest would be to redistrict some of the Tysons-area apartments zoned for McLean and/or Marshall to Langley, which has excess capacity and no apartments. That would be quick and expedient, and the kids moved to Langley from those neighborhoods would still have shorter bus rides to Langley than the kids in Great Falls who attend Langley.

The more complicated approach would involve larger redistricting involving more schools. For example, Forestville and Great Falls could be moved out of Langley to Herndon, Aldrin and Armstrong could be moved out of Herndon to South Lakes, and Forest Edge could be moved out of South Lakes to Langley along with some of the Tysons apartments. Most of the students affected in this scenario would end up with shorter bus rides than they currently have, or slightly longer bus rides that would still be much shorter than the current bus rides of students from Great Falls to Langley.

The disparity between poor and rich is ridiculous in fcps. It's time for the school board to stand up to the interests of the rich and draw boundaries in an equitable way.

I'd love to know what you think is "equitable."

Seriously, I'd like to know what you think will be resolved. I only know Langley from when we went there for sporting events. I understand that it is a wealthier school. But, what difference does that make? I think it ridiculous that kids are coming from the county line with Loudoun, but there really is not presently another alternative.

I taught in a school that was bused. This is not a good model for lots of reasons--the main one being that the lower income people lived further away and had a hard time getting to the school. And, then you have "bused" and "local." That does not work well either. Community based schools work much better. I speak from experience.

So, where are the low income kids for Langley going to come from? Herndon? Reston? Falls Church?

I am not for socio-economic divisions. But, you cannot legislate it. There are a number of successful schools in Fairfax County that are well mixed. But, the kids live in the communities.

Busing does not work.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Housing policy = de facto segregation = school demographics

witness Langley, Briar Woods, New Trier Twp HS (North Shore), Rochester-Adams (MI), Main Line PA, Sunnyvale Ca I could continue.

Housing policy? What do you want? Fairfax County to build an affordable housing complex on Mclean Central Park? That's pubic land. Forgo federal subsidies for tenants and use all local money plus open it up to no tenant has to be legally present? The Amazon issue for South Arlington was loss of available private NOT public affordable housing.

I think PP was just pointing out that much of the de facto segregation results from housing policy, including current zoning.

Which it does, and which the School Board can't really address on its own without massively inconveniencing people whose kids might have to travel much further to schools to achieve social integration goals.

Easier to do what the county is currently doing, which is requiring some more affordable housing to be included when new developments are built in areas like Tysons (which feed into schools in McLean, Falls Church, and Vienna).

Anonymous wrote:Housing policy = de facto segregation = school demographics

witness Langley, Briar Woods, New Trier Twp HS (North Shore), Rochester-Adams (MI), Main Line PA, Sunnyvale Ca I could continue.

Housing policy? What do you want? Fairfax County to build an affordable housing complex on Mclean Central Park? That's pubic land. Forgo federal subsidies for tenants and use all local money plus open it up to no tenant has to be legally present? The Amazon issue for South Arlington was loss of available private NOT public affordable housing.