Anonymous wrote:I will say that my one friend who is constantly posting anti-vax stuff on FB DID become a mom when she was very young (22). It is now 23 years later, though, and she is STILL on it. And she has also tried almost every (it seems like) MLM company in the book.

And, you know what's just as bad, those who shame others by posting demands to vaccinate and do things their way when it may not be best for all kids.

You know whats more obnoxious, people like you who criticize everything someone else does. So, you expect people to come in, do as you command and not question or think it through.. hmm... sounds like far worse parenting and neglectful.

I will say that my one friend who is constantly posting anti-vax stuff on FB DID become a mom when she was very young (22). It is now 23 years later, though, and she is STILL on it. And she has also tried almost every (it seems like) MLM company in the book.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You are a health practitioner, and need to get over your judgment and generalities, or get out of your profession.

You were once a young, inexperienced person. Maybe you didn’t have the internet and media at your fingertips, which is a game changer for how ANYONE gains information.

Seems to me you and your husband aren’t good health educators, or very good with communicating with your clientele on their level. Of course, based on your dripping with judgement and disdain post, I’m not surprised that you’re that way in real life. They’re not listening and communicating with you honestly because they KNOW you think you’re better than them. Sooner or later, they’ll find other practices, which, the universe willing, they should.

I’ve found the anti-vaxer.

OP doesn’t sound any more judgmental than anyone else who has to deal with people with no education who think they know all.

Yes, even doctors are allowed to be frustrated with their clients. I’m
A teacher and I’m constantly annoyed with parents. It’s frustrating ing when people think they know best, as if my education and experience means nothing.

Can’t imagine how frustrated I’d be if I was a doctor and spent twice as long in school only to have some 22-year-old tell me I was wrong.

Nope. I’m a MUCH older mom, and children are vaccinated for even stuff that many people delay. I got boosters during pregnancy. I follow antibiotics to the T. I understand science. But then again, I was a nurse for years, and now work in a completely unrelated STEM field.

Here’s the thing. Your, and OP’s b is primarily to cOmmunicate and to EDUCATE. You both sound like you’re in the wrong field. No one is telling you you’re wrong, so you need to get TF over your ego, and figure out how to take these people to a higher level of wellness and understanding. It’s your JOB. FWIW, the age discrimination is just annoying, because any client (or patient or student or whatever) falls into the same category of now having the years of education that you do. You ask leading questions, yiu address their concerns, you educate based on that.

This is why med school (and entrance into other professions) should be based on other things purely than just grades. You’re dealing with real people, in real circumstance, at their weakest and most afraid. The fact that you can diagnose and prescribe does not make yiu a good practitioner. A better role may be research.

I think the problem is communication and education from medical personnel can't compete against Dr. Google and social media.

Sure it can. The problem / reality is many doctors fall on to “I am older, come from a better social class, and am more educated than you are, ” and never actually choose to discuss the WHY with their clients.

Why do people keep saying clients? I have never heard a doctor refer to a patient as a client.

New poster here - we are talking about pediatricians, so the parents of the patients are not their patients. Clients is appropriate.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You are a health practitioner, and need to get over your judgment and generalities, or get out of your profession.

You were once a young, inexperienced person. Maybe you didn’t have the internet and media at your fingertips, which is a game changer for how ANYONE gains information.

Seems to me you and your husband aren’t good health educators, or very good with communicating with your clientele on their level. Of course, based on your dripping with judgement and disdain post, I’m not surprised that you’re that way in real life. They’re not listening and communicating with you honestly because they KNOW you think you’re better than them. Sooner or later, they’ll find other practices, which, the universe willing, they should.

I’ve found the anti-vaxer.

OP doesn’t sound any more judgmental than anyone else who has to deal with people with no education who think they know all.

Yes, even doctors are allowed to be frustrated with their clients. I’m
A teacher and I’m constantly annoyed with parents. It’s frustrating ing when people think they know best, as if my education and experience means nothing.

Can’t imagine how frustrated I’d be if I was a doctor and spent twice as long in school only to have some 22-year-old tell me I was wrong.

Nope. I’m a MUCH older mom, and children are vaccinated for even stuff that many people delay. I got boosters during pregnancy. I follow antibiotics to the T. I understand science. But then again, I was a nurse for years, and now work in a completely unrelated STEM field.

Here’s the thing. Your, and OP’s b is primarily to cOmmunicate and to EDUCATE. You both sound like you’re in the wrong field. No one is telling you you’re wrong, so you need to get TF over your ego, and figure out how to take these people to a higher level of wellness and understanding. It’s your JOB. FWIW, the age discrimination is just annoying, because any client (or patient or student or whatever) falls into the same category of now having the years of education that you do. You ask leading questions, yiu address their concerns, you educate based on that.

This is why med school (and entrance into other professions) should be based on other things purely than just grades. You’re dealing with real people, in real circumstance, at their weakest and most afraid. The fact that you can diagnose and prescribe does not make yiu a good practitioner. A better role may be research.

I think the problem is communication and education from medical personnel can't compete against Dr. Google and social media.

Sure it can. The problem / reality is many doctors fall on to “I am older, come from a better social class, and am more educated than you are, ” and never actually choose to discuss the WHY with their clients.

Why do people keep saying clients? I have never heard a doctor refer to a patient as a client.

And maybe that’s part of the problem with doctor responses on here.

“Patient” is a term that suggests that person should defer to the doctor.

Client puts them on a more equal level, which doctors like the OP don’t prefer. A client is paying you, and can question your expertise, and is involved in their choices.

I know MANY doctors who don’t refer to people as “patients” any more.

Glad that's working out for you.

As a physician, I have no quibble with changing terminology. Discussing this relationship in business terms ("A client is paying you, and can question your expertise, and is involved in their choices") is a more explicit acknowledgement of a two way street, also.

PP, do you have any objection to physicians declining to work with any patients they may choose not to, so long as it is not on the basis of a protected status? Say, just as a landscape designer might chose not to work with clients he or she feels may not be a good fit.

That's totally okay, right?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You are a health practitioner, and need to get over your judgment and generalities, or get out of your profession.

You were once a young, inexperienced person. Maybe you didn’t have the internet and media at your fingertips, which is a game changer for how ANYONE gains information.

Seems to me you and your husband aren’t good health educators, or very good with communicating with your clientele on their level. Of course, based on your dripping with judgement and disdain post, I’m not surprised that you’re that way in real life. They’re not listening and communicating with you honestly because they KNOW you think you’re better than them. Sooner or later, they’ll find other practices, which, the universe willing, they should.

I’ve found the anti-vaxer.

OP doesn’t sound any more judgmental than anyone else who has to deal with people with no education who think they know all.

Yes, even doctors are allowed to be frustrated with their clients. I’m
A teacher and I’m constantly annoyed with parents. It’s frustrating ing when people think they know best, as if my education and experience means nothing.

Can’t imagine how frustrated I’d be if I was a doctor and spent twice as long in school only to have some 22-year-old tell me I was wrong.

Nope. I’m a MUCH older mom, and children are vaccinated for even stuff that many people delay. I got boosters during pregnancy. I follow antibiotics to the T. I understand science. But then again, I was a nurse for years, and now work in a completely unrelated STEM field.

Here’s the thing. Your, and OP’s b is primarily to cOmmunicate and to EDUCATE. You both sound like you’re in the wrong field. No one is telling you you’re wrong, so you need to get TF over your ego, and figure out how to take these people to a higher level of wellness and understanding. It’s your JOB. FWIW, the age discrimination is just annoying, because any client (or patient or student or whatever) falls into the same category of now having the years of education that you do. You ask leading questions, yiu address their concerns, you educate based on that.

This is why med school (and entrance into other professions) should be based on other things purely than just grades. You’re dealing with real people, in real circumstance, at their weakest and most afraid. The fact that you can diagnose and prescribe does not make yiu a good practitioner. A better role may be research.

I think the problem is communication and education from medical personnel can't compete against Dr. Google and social media.

Sure it can. The problem / reality is many doctors fall on to “I am older, come from a better social class, and am more educated than you are, ” and never actually choose to discuss the WHY with their clients.

Why do people keep saying clients? I have never heard a doctor refer to a patient as a client.

And maybe that’s part of the problem with doctor responses on here.

“Patient” is a term that suggests that person should defer to the doctor.

Client puts them on a more equal level, which doctors like the OP don’t prefer. A client is paying you, and can question your expertise, and is involved in their choices.

I know MANY doctors who don’t refer to people as “patients” any more.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You are a health practitioner, and need to get over your judgment and generalities, or get out of your profession.

You were once a young, inexperienced person. Maybe you didn’t have the internet and media at your fingertips, which is a game changer for how ANYONE gains information.

Seems to me you and your husband aren’t good health educators, or very good with communicating with your clientele on their level. Of course, based on your dripping with judgement and disdain post, I’m not surprised that you’re that way in real life. They’re not listening and communicating with you honestly because they KNOW you think you’re better than them. Sooner or later, they’ll find other practices, which, the universe willing, they should.

I’ve found the anti-vaxer.

OP doesn’t sound any more judgmental than anyone else who has to deal with people with no education who think they know all.

Yes, even doctors are allowed to be frustrated with their clients. I’m
A teacher and I’m constantly annoyed with parents. It’s frustrating ing when people think they know best, as if my education and experience means nothing.

Can’t imagine how frustrated I’d be if I was a doctor and spent twice as long in school only to have some 22-year-old tell me I was wrong.

Nope. I’m a MUCH older mom, and children are vaccinated for even stuff that many people delay. I got boosters during pregnancy. I follow antibiotics to the T. I understand science. But then again, I was a nurse for years, and now work in a completely unrelated STEM field.

Here’s the thing. Your, and OP’s b is primarily to cOmmunicate and to EDUCATE. You both sound like you’re in the wrong field. No one is telling you you’re wrong, so you need to get TF over your ego, and figure out how to take these people to a higher level of wellness and understanding. It’s your JOB. FWIW, the age discrimination is just annoying, because any client (or patient or student or whatever) falls into the same category of now having the years of education that you do. You ask leading questions, yiu address their concerns, you educate based on that.

This is why med school (and entrance into other professions) should be based on other things purely than just grades. You’re dealing with real people, in real circumstance, at their weakest and most afraid. The fact that you can diagnose and prescribe does not make yiu a good practitioner. A better role may be research.

I think the problem is communication and education from medical personnel can't compete against Dr. Google and social media.

Sure it can. The problem / reality is many doctors fall on to “I am older, come from a better social class, and am more educated than you are, ” and never actually choose to discuss the WHY with their clients.

Why do people keep saying clients? I have never heard a doctor refer to a patient as a client.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You are a health practitioner, and need to get over your judgment and generalities, or get out of your profession.

You were once a young, inexperienced person. Maybe you didn’t have the internet and media at your fingertips, which is a game changer for how ANYONE gains information.

Seems to me you and your husband aren’t good health educators, or very good with communicating with your clientele on their level. Of course, based on your dripping with judgement and disdain post, I’m not surprised that you’re that way in real life. They’re not listening and communicating with you honestly because they KNOW you think you’re better than them. Sooner or later, they’ll find other practices, which, the universe willing, they should.

I’ve found the anti-vaxer.

OP doesn’t sound any more judgmental than anyone else who has to deal with people with no education who think they know all.

Yes, even doctors are allowed to be frustrated with their clients. I’m
A teacher and I’m constantly annoyed with parents. It’s frustrating ing when people think they know best, as if my education and experience means nothing.

Can’t imagine how frustrated I’d be if I was a doctor and spent twice as long in school only to have some 22-year-old tell me I was wrong.

Nope. I’m a MUCH older mom, and children are vaccinated for even stuff that many people delay. I got boosters during pregnancy. I follow antibiotics to the T. I understand science. But then again, I was a nurse for years, and now work in a completely unrelated STEM field.

Here’s the thing. Your, and OP’s b is primarily to cOmmunicate and to EDUCATE. You both sound like you’re in the wrong field. No one is telling you you’re wrong, so you need to get TF over your ego, and figure out how to take these people to a higher level of wellness and understanding. It’s your JOB. FWIW, the age discrimination is just annoying, because any client (or patient or student or whatever) falls into the same category of now having the years of education that you do. You ask leading questions, yiu address their concerns, you educate based on that.

This is why med school (and entrance into other professions) should be based on other things purely than just grades. You’re dealing with real people, in real circumstance, at their weakest and most afraid. The fact that you can diagnose and prescribe does not make yiu a good practitioner. A better role may be research.

I think the problem is communication and education from medical personnel can't compete against Dr. Google and social media.

Sure it can. The problem / reality is many doctors fall on to “I am older, come from a better social class, and am more educated than you are, ” and never actually choose to discuss the WHY with their clients.

Anonymous wrote: I can think of three parents I have right now where everything I say is wrong because the internet says X, Y, Z. Everything is a battle. I’m constantly getting print outs from Natural News.

And I think this is the crux of the problem. The number of people who pre-diagnose problems with Dr. Google and then will not believe an actual professional caregiver because they don't concur with WebMD are the real issue. Due to their age, those in the 19-25 age group who have grown up with the Internet, Google, Alexa and cell phones are much more likely to be in this category; but there are plenty of people in other age demographics who also fall into this category, but to lesser degrees. The highest percentage will be in younger age groups, so the highest percentage in the 19-29 age group, less in the 30-39 age group, less still in the 40-49 age group, etc.

We are in our 50's and both are IT specialists, so we are much more savvy about the Internet and resources than many of our age peers, but the primary difference is that we read the Internet not to diagnose, but to research. When we talk with medical specialists, we then discuss what we read, not to contradict the medical practitioners, but to ask them whether what we read applies or is related to what our (or our children) are experiencing. My spouse has a genetic disorder that is very rare (about 90,000 cases world-wide). I've spent the last 20 years caring for and taking my spouse to medical specialists around the country and we've found a team that we really like. But, since we often go from specialist to specialist, we spent the first 10 years with notebooks and notes and each time we talked with a new specialist, we discussed what had been done, I kept copies of medical records, tests, etc. I was asked by several specialists if I was a medical specialist in this field, but each time I confirmed that I was not, just a specialist in exactly one patient. I find that the difference in reception is in keeping an open mind, presenting what I've learned not as fact, but as research and discussing information we have. All of our doctors take the time to present what they've found, and why they are recommending the treatment that they do. They will discuss if what I've learned is appropriate or not.

However, since we had children late, we are often around peer parents who are 15-20 years younger. Discussing with them or seeing what they post on FB, I can see the phenomenon that OP cites as a problem in many of my younger peers. It is true that younger people do tend to believe what they research on the Internet and are much likely to believe that it gives them ammunition to advocate for themselves and to contradict professionals that they seek rather than present such research to discuss. But I don't think it's restricted to young parents, just that they are more likely to be that way due to the way they grew up.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:oh, and another thing I noticed - Bloodwork is much more a part of routine care with children in Europe
Than in the US. because omg the child is going to scream!!

Where is the evidence that supports routine pediatric labwork, above what is recommended by the AAP?

Citation, please, or I'm going to side-eye you for preferring to make children scream for no good reason, just because you seem to like it.

this is exactly the problem - you have no clinical judgment, you just rely on guidelines and research like the rest of us. so what exactly is the point of having a doctor - unless you are a surgeon you just go online to read the same stuff we do, you showed as much yourself.

and for your “evidence” perhaps you should read the paper “why most research findings are false”. at least a half research findings is not replicable.

"Not replicable" does not mean "false." It means that an experiment using the same parameters was unable to reach the same conclusion, not that the original researcher was falsifying data. "Not replicable" usually means "more research is warranted."

Also, most decent physicians - not just surgeons - subscribe to multiple medical journals, do yearly retrainings, attend conferences, and the like. They're not out there Googling stuff. And national standards of care do not substitute for individual judgment calls, and national associations never claim that they do.

Seriously: why do you think physicians even attend medical school, if there's nothing to learn that can't also be learned by Joe Schmoe with a wifi connection?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:oh, and another thing I noticed - Bloodwork is much more a part of routine care with children in Europe
Than in the US. because omg the child is going to scream!!

Where is the evidence that supports routine pediatric labwork, above what is recommended by the AAP?

Citation, please, or I'm going to side-eye you for preferring to make children scream for no good reason, just because you seem to like it.

this is exactly the problem - you have no clinical judgment, you just rely on guidelines and research like the rest of us. so what exactly is the point of having a doctor - unless you are a surgeon you just go online to read the same stuff we do, you showed as much yourself.

and for your “evidence” perhaps you should read the paper “why most research findings are false”. at least a half research findings is not replicable.

Still better than the woo-woo alternatives. "Best practices" often aren't best, and there is data to show this, too.

The problem is that in order to do better than mainstream evidence-based practice, you have to show you can. You have to justify what you are claiming. Wanting it to be so, or thinking it ought to be so, isn't good enough.

Still waiting for whatever justification you think is convincing and holds up to external scrutiny.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:oh, and another thing I noticed - Bloodwork is much more a part of routine care with children in Europe
Than in the US. because omg the child is going to scream!!

scratches head...Why is bloodwork a part of standard care there? No reason to do blood draws in kids unless they're presenting with some condition that would warrant it. Can't imagine ordering blood draws on a healthy little one.

so that you could rule out serious conditions perhaps? doctors can leukemia in young “healthy” ’children during regular checkups through routine bloodwork.

but yeah, knocking children unconscious so that dentist can work at peace on their baby teeth while not doing regular bloodwork because omg the finger prick makes a lot of sense.

DS Pediatrician drew blood for the first time when he was 6. We were in for continual stomach pain, we had been in once before and were back for a second visit. The Doctor did a full exam, checked if his organs were enlarged with a physical touch and decided to draw blood to check for other possible problems. DS handled it fine but it was his first blood draw and it happened after the Doctor could not identify the problem through other means. We thought it was more anxiety based on something happening at school but felt we should make darn sure that it wasn't medical. We tested for strep, only because it was going around (no fever, no rash, no signs in the throat) and it turned out he had strep (or might be a carrier who doesn't get sick even though he has strep). We treated the strep, winter break happened and the stomach problems went away.

So yeah, Doctors will order blood draws when needed. Most 6 year olds don't need a blood draw and I am sure that the Doctor would rather avoid them because they don't want kids to be scared to go to the Doctor.

And we did "knock our child out" to have four cavities filled when he was 3. Our dentist identified the cavities, we went to a pediatric dentist who confirmed the cavities. We could have gone for four fillings and hope that the gas worked for the 3 year old or we could "knock him out" and get all four filled once. We brushed his teeth twice a day, no dream feeds, lots of water, juice only at breakfast. He had been going to the dentist since he was 2. He happens to have soft teeth and was prone to cavities. It sucked but we were not going to all cavities to continue to grow and going back to the dentist four times and exposing him to the gas struck us as excessive. He also had sealant put on his teeth. But that is what the Dentist, a trained medical professional, recommended and that recommendation was confirmed by a second dentist.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:oh, and another thing I noticed - Bloodwork is much more a part of routine care with children in Europe
Than in the US. because omg the child is going to scream!!

scratches head...Why is bloodwork a part of standard care there? No reason to do blood draws in kids unless they're presenting with some condition that would warrant it. Can't imagine ordering blood draws on a healthy little one.

If you don't, you probably aren't practicing evidence-based medicine -- at least in pediatric care. The AAP does have recommendations for some minimal labwork in children, based on benefits/risk analysis.

1. Two newborn screens (universal): heel pricks in the newborn period, with conditions tested varying somewhat by state

2. Newborn bilirubin: recommended each newborn have one level drawn, with others in follow-up if indicated

3. Iron deficiency anemia: All children at 12 months, with levels at other times if indicated

4. Lead level if at risk (not just when they present with signs or symptoms of the condition, but based on risk): Specifically at 12 and 24 months in high-risk children, and as indicated otherwise

5.Lipid profile: all children at 9-11 years of age and a second at 17-21 years of age, as well as when indicated

6. HIV at 15-18 years of age, and when indicated

Many of these are screens also indicated when there is risk identified, not just when presenting with a condition. There are other screens I did not list which are only indicated because of risk (again, not because of presenting condition). More info at --> https://www.aap.org/en-us/professional-resources/practice-transformation/managing-patients/Pages/Periodicity-Schedule.aspx

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:oh, and another thing I noticed - Bloodwork is much more a part of routine care with children in Europe
Than in the US. because omg the child is going to scream!!

Where is the evidence that supports routine pediatric labwork, above what is recommended by the AAP?

Citation, please, or I'm going to side-eye you for preferring to make children scream for no good reason, just because you seem to like it.

this is exactly the problem - you have no clinical judgment, you just rely on guidelines and research like the rest of us. so what exactly is the point of having a doctor - unless you are a surgeon you just go online to read the same stuff we do, you showed as much yourself.

and for your “evidence” perhaps you should read the paper “why most research findings are false”. at least a half research findings is not replicable.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Im not an antivaxer... Just to be clear and I've never not finished antibiotics.

I think the best doctors act as a partner not an authority.

My experience with doctors is that they are.making a "best guess" which works 90% of the time.

Pediatricians are usually less pompous than an orthopedic ... In my experience.

Also doctors often are thinking "what will insurance cover"... What is the fastest fix.

If you approach everything as the authority you will fail. If you treat people as intelligent people able to make decision you have will have less frustration and better results.

Also, you use western medicine and overlook other ways to treat your patients... Like diet change or meditation or acupuncture.

If the person was able to tell they doctor they are not using antibiotics instead of pretending because the doctor would be a pompous jerk the doctor would actually had the right information.

These two statements in bold are borderline obnoxious.

I'm sorry that you do not understand this, but my medical degree actually DOES make me an authority on medicine, medical studies, and the practice of good medicine. I did not put myself through 8 years of med school to "partner" with or defer to non-medically-licensed parents with regard to my medical diagnosis or prescription. Please do not equate your Google search with my years of study and time spent as a medical practitioner.

I know you have opinions that are based on the scary things you read on the internet or your friend Becky's story about the autistic child down the block. But please realize that the opinions that I have (what you refer to as my "best guess") are based on knowledge that my years of study have garnered, studies that you have not taken the time to read (--not that I would expect you to, as that is literally my JOB!), and hours and hours over years and years of seeing patients with similar presentation of symptoms and effective treatment. So even though you can argue that we all have our opinions, it is important to recognize the basis for these opinions and not insist that they are equivalent. If they are...then why bother having pediatricians go to med school at all. Just take your child home and do what you want. ??

That said, I am happy to discuss WHY I am recommending a certain line of treatment so that you feel informed and educated about my reasoning. But I am not inclined to debate you about it or entertain your notions that what you read in some pop-culture magazine about the latest treatment for strep is the course of treatment I need to prescribe. I am happy to part ways with parents who don't see eye to eye with me on this. And good luck to you.

The Tuskegee Experiment doctors and the opioid over subscriber doctors undoubtedly sounded as insufferable as you do.