Anonymous
Post 05/03/2019 14:35     Subject: Seminary Dean eschews resurrection
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
They may not be correct, but they are having an enormous influence - and no human force, so far, is impeding them. Is there anything in the Bible about when or how they will be spewn out?


I don’t know any verses about God spewing out false teachers, but I know for a fact that at the judgement, God will say to them “depart from me I never knew you”. It isn’t a guarantee that false teachers will be called out during their life, but they will face judgement.


You are a Biblical literalist, right?


Yes for the most part. Not for everything of course.


So you know that many people, some who are deeply religious , could disagree with your "facts" that come straight out of the bible


Yes that’s what most of the discussion in this thread is about. I’m not sure what your point is.


As a Bible literalist, your "facts" are questioned or simply not believed by lots of other Christians who also consider the Bible to be a holy book. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say "I firmly believe...." instead of "I know for a fact...."


I firmly believe that Matthew 7:21-23 does for a fact say, “21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”

Yes I get that not everyone is a literalist, I was just quoting a verse. If you want to take these verses metaphorically or symbolically that’s your choice, although I wouldn’t see why in this case.


-----------
Another choice is fictional -- that the Bible is a book of stories, that, like most stories, has some historical elements.


--------
Progressive Christians like the dean will often use the terms "metaphor" or "symbolic" to characterize Bible stories as having value despite not being factual. They don't use the word "fiction" I don't think, but it is another way of saying that these are stories, that don't need to be factual have value.


******************
That’s what I don’t get about Christians who believe Bible stories have good messages but aren’t actually true. If the Bible stories are just teaching moral messages that even nonchristians believe in, like love and respect, then what is the point of calling yourself Christian then? What then is the differentiation between Christians and nonchristians?


Everyone picks and chooses what to take literally and what to interpret as metaphor (or no longer applicable Old Testament law) in the Bible. Every single Christian. Have you ever met a "Biblical literalist" who owns two coats? Jesus said to give one away. Literal instruction from Jesus. Believing in the existence of dinosaurs that existed millions of years ago over the "young earth" Biblical timeline is another common example.

The point of calling myself a Christian is to live my life guided by Jesus's incarnation, teachings, death, and resurrection - what He shows about how God loves us and wants us to love each other. The rest is just details.

As for "just stories," I'd recommend reading C.S. Lewis's essay on myth. He says myth is something much greater than fiction vs nonfiction, true vs false, that fulfills a great human need, and argues that Jesus fulfills myth by joining it with history. I read it as a teenager so it's been a while, but it had a big influence on me at the time.


************

There are many ways to justify one's stance on religious faith, just as there are many ways to justify one's stance on other things.

Humanists lead good lives without looking to the guidance of a supernatural god or a particular human prophet supposedly sent by god.


I do not understand this comment. Are you saying someone who believes in God and Jesus but doesn't take every detail in the Bible as literal fact should stop believing and be a humanist? Or that humanists are also good people who do not justify their morals with reference to God, which I agree with but is totally unrelated to my comment about why someone would call themselves a Christian?


*********

This. It's related if you think that people who follow Christian morals are following the same morals as humanists do without evoking Christ's teachings.

Humanists don't call themselves Christians, and don't do good things as a way of following Christ, or being in favor with God.
Anonymous
Post 05/03/2019 14:26     Subject: Seminary Dean eschews resurrection
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Has anyone seen this Kristof Easter interview in the New York Times? https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/20/opinion/sunday/christian-easter-serene-jones.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage

He interviews the dean of Union Theological Seminary, who is a United Church of Christ minister and a former Yale professor who doesn’t believe in the virgin birth or the resurrection and isn’t sure about heaven. Still, she considers herself a Christian.

What do you think?


No surprised at all. The Scripture describes the End Times as the times when the power of the false church will be unmatched. The true Church will go underground. The false church is the church without Jesus, without Scripture, without Resurrection, without Trinity. The false church is described as the Whore of Babylon and the bride of Satan. The true Church is described as the Bride of Jesus. Jesus already won on the Cross and He will return as the Judge and hurl the false church, its followers together with Satan into the pits of hell. The true Church with its people will be resurrected and will spend the eternity in the presence of God.


I guess we're a long ways from the end times, then, because the "True church" is currently much stronger that the false church


People are trying to estimate whether we are in the End Times or not. Some say yes, some say no. Let's keep in mind that God's timelines are much longer than what we think of in terms of our human lives. End Times could last 2, 5, 10 thousand years. But I think we are in the End Times and I think there is still a very, very long time to go until the final End. And, no the true Church is not stronger. The true Church is being decimated every single day, sometimes in hundreds. The false church holds most of the power through congregations, universities, and public offices. However, the true Church will prevail because that is what Jesus foretold: "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." - Matthew 16:18


So how did you find out about God's longer timelines? Talking to God? Wishful thinking? Making excuses?

None of the above. You find out by reading the Bible:

2 Peter 3:8-9: “But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.”


Slam dunk!


Only if you think god speaks exclusively through the Bible and that your interpretation is the correct one
Anonymous
Post 05/03/2019 10:44     Subject: Seminary Dean eschews resurrection
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Has anyone seen this Kristof Easter interview in the New York Times? https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/20/opinion/sunday/christian-easter-serene-jones.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage

He interviews the dean of Union Theological Seminary, who is a United Church of Christ minister and a former Yale professor who doesn’t believe in the virgin birth or the resurrection and isn’t sure about heaven. Still, she considers herself a Christian.

What do you think?


No surprised at all. The Scripture describes the End Times as the times when the power of the false church will be unmatched. The true Church will go underground. The false church is the church without Jesus, without Scripture, without Resurrection, without Trinity. The false church is described as the Whore of Babylon and the bride of Satan. The true Church is described as the Bride of Jesus. Jesus already won on the Cross and He will return as the Judge and hurl the false church, its followers together with Satan into the pits of hell. The true Church with its people will be resurrected and will spend the eternity in the presence of God.


I guess we're a long ways from the end times, then, because the "True church" is currently much stronger that the false church


People are trying to estimate whether we are in the End Times or not. Some say yes, some say no. Let's keep in mind that God's timelines are much longer than what we think of in terms of our human lives. End Times could last 2, 5, 10 thousand years. But I think we are in the End Times and I think there is still a very, very long time to go until the final End. And, no the true Church is not stronger. The true Church is being decimated every single day, sometimes in hundreds. The false church holds most of the power through congregations, universities, and public offices. However, the true Church will prevail because that is what Jesus foretold: "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." - Matthew 16:18


So how did you find out about God's longer timelines? Talking to God? Wishful thinking? Making excuses?

None of the above. You find out by reading the Bible:

2 Peter 3:8-9: “But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.”


Slam dunk!


"He will gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today". (Popi:3:17)
Anonymous
Post 05/03/2019 10:42     Subject: Seminary Dean eschews resurrection
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Has anyone seen this Kristof Easter interview in the New York Times? https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/20/opinion/sunday/christian-easter-serene-jones.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage

He interviews the dean of Union Theological Seminary, who is a United Church of Christ minister and a former Yale professor who doesn’t believe in the virgin birth or the resurrection and isn’t sure about heaven. Still, she considers herself a Christian.

What do you think?


No surprised at all. The Scripture describes the End Times as the times when the power of the false church will be unmatched. The true Church will go underground. The false church is the church without Jesus, without Scripture, without Resurrection, without Trinity. The false church is described as the Whore of Babylon and the bride of Satan. The true Church is described as the Bride of Jesus. Jesus already won on the Cross and He will return as the Judge and hurl the false church, its followers together with Satan into the pits of hell. The true Church with its people will be resurrected and will spend the eternity in the presence of God.


I guess we're a long ways from the end times, then, because the "True church" is currently much stronger that the false church


People are trying to estimate whether we are in the End Times or not. Some say yes, some say no. Let's keep in mind that God's timelines are much longer than what we think of in terms of our human lives. End Times could last 2, 5, 10 thousand years. But I think we are in the End Times and I think there is still a very, very long time to go until the final End. And, no the true Church is not stronger. The true Church is being decimated every single day, sometimes in hundreds. The false church holds most of the power through congregations, universities, and public offices. However, the true Church will prevail because that is what Jesus foretold: "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." - Matthew 16:18


So how did you find out about God's longer timelines? Talking to God? Wishful thinking? Making excuses?

None of the above. You find out by reading the Bible:

2 Peter 3:8-9: “But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.”


Slam dunk!
Anonymous
Post 05/03/2019 09:59     Subject: Seminary Dean eschews resurrection
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
They may not be correct, but they are having an enormous influence - and no human force, so far, is impeding them. Is there anything in the Bible about when or how they will be spewn out?


I don’t know any verses about God spewing out false teachers, but I know for a fact that at the judgement, God will say to them “depart from me I never knew you”. It isn’t a guarantee that false teachers will be called out during their life, but they will face judgement.


You are a Biblical literalist, right?


Yes for the most part. Not for everything of course.


So you know that many people, some who are deeply religious , could disagree with your "facts" that come straight out of the bible


Yes that’s what most of the discussion in this thread is about. I’m not sure what your point is.


As a Bible literalist, your "facts" are questioned or simply not believed by lots of other Christians who also consider the Bible to be a holy book. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say "I firmly believe...." instead of "I know for a fact...."


I firmly believe that Matthew 7:21-23 does for a fact say, “21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”

Yes I get that not everyone is a literalist, I was just quoting a verse. If you want to take these verses metaphorically or symbolically that’s your choice, although I wouldn’t see why in this case.


-----------
Another choice is fictional -- that the Bible is a book of stories, that, like most stories, has some historical elements.


--------
Progressive Christians like the dean will often use the terms "metaphor" or "symbolic" to characterize Bible stories as having value despite not being factual. They don't use the word "fiction" I don't think, but it is another way of saying that these are stories, that don't need to be factual have value.


******************
That’s what I don’t get about Christians who believe Bible stories have good messages but aren’t actually true. If the Bible stories are just teaching moral messages that even nonchristians believe in, like love and respect, then what is the point of calling yourself Christian then? What then is the differentiation between Christians and nonchristians?


Everyone picks and chooses what to take literally and what to interpret as metaphor (or no longer applicable Old Testament law) in the Bible. Every single Christian. Have you ever met a "Biblical literalist" who owns two coats? Jesus said to give one away. Literal instruction from Jesus. Believing in the existence of dinosaurs that existed millions of years ago over the "young earth" Biblical timeline is another common example.

The point of calling myself a Christian is to live my life guided by Jesus's incarnation, teachings, death, and resurrection - what He shows about how God loves us and wants us to love each other. The rest is just details.

As for "just stories," I'd recommend reading C.S. Lewis's essay on myth. He says myth is something much greater than fiction vs nonfiction, true vs false, that fulfills a great human need, and argues that Jesus fulfills myth by joining it with history. I read it as a teenager so it's been a while, but it had a big influence on me at the time.

************

There are many ways to justify one's stance on religious faith, just as there are many ways to justify one's stance on other things.

Humanists lead good lives without looking to the guidance of a supernatural god or a particular human prophet supposedly sent by god.

I do not understand this comment. Are you saying someone who believes in God and Jesus but doesn't take every detail in the Bible as literal fact should stop believing and be a humanist? Or that humanists are also good people who do not justify their morals with reference to God, which I agree with but is totally unrelated to my comment about why someone would call themselves a Christian?
Anonymous
Post 05/03/2019 09:54     Subject: Seminary Dean eschews resurrection
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
They may not be correct, but they are having an enormous influence - and no human force, so far, is impeding them. Is there anything in the Bible about when or how they will be spewn out?


I don’t know any verses about God spewing out false teachers, but I know for a fact that at the judgement, God will say to them “depart from me I never knew you”. It isn’t a guarantee that false teachers will be called out during their life, but they will face judgement.


You are a Biblical literalist, right?


Yes for the most part. Not for everything of course.


So you know that many people, some who are deeply religious , could disagree with your "facts" that come straight out of the bible


Yes that’s what most of the discussion in this thread is about. I’m not sure what your point is.


As a Bible literalist, your "facts" are questioned or simply not believed by lots of other Christians who also consider the Bible to be a holy book. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say "I firmly believe...." instead of "I know for a fact...."


I firmly believe that Matthew 7:21-23 does for a fact say, “21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”

Yes I get that not everyone is a literalist, I was just quoting a verse. If you want to take these verses metaphorically or symbolically that’s your choice, although I wouldn’t see why in this case.


-----------
Another choice is fictional -- that the Bible is a book of stories, that, like most stories, has some historical elements.


--------
Progressive Christians like the dean will often use the terms "metaphor" or "symbolic" to characterize Bible stories as having value despite not being factual. They don't use the word "fiction" I don't think, but it is another way of saying that these are stories, that don't need to be factual have value.


******************
That’s what I don’t get about Christians who believe Bible stories have good messages but aren’t actually true. If the Bible stories are just teaching moral messages that even nonchristians believe in, like love and respect, then what is the point of calling yourself Christian then? What then is the differentiation between Christians and nonchristians?


Everyone picks and chooses what to take literally and what to interpret as metaphor (or no longer applicable Old Testament law) in the Bible. Every single Christian. Have you ever met a "Biblical literalist" who owns two coats? Jesus said to give one away. Literal instruction from Jesus. Believing in the existence of dinosaurs that existed millions of years ago over the "young earth" Biblical timeline is another common example.

The point of calling myself a Christian is to live my life guided by Jesus's incarnation, teachings, death, and resurrection - what He shows about how God loves us and wants us to love each other. The rest is just details.

As for "just stories," I'd recommend reading C.S. Lewis's essay on myth. He says myth is something much greater than fiction vs nonfiction, true vs false, that fulfills a great human need, and argues that Jesus fulfills myth by joining it with history. I read it as a teenager so it's been a while, but it had a big influence on me at the time.

************

There are many ways to justify one's stance on religious faith, just as there are many ways to justify one's stance on other things.

Humanists lead good lives without looking to the guidance of a supernatural god or a particular human prophet supposedly sent by god.
Anonymous
Post 05/03/2019 09:21     Subject: Seminary Dean eschews resurrection
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
They may not be correct, but they are having an enormous influence - and no human force, so far, is impeding them. Is there anything in the Bible about when or how they will be spewn out?


I don’t know any verses about God spewing out false teachers, but I know for a fact that at the judgement, God will say to them “depart from me I never knew you”. It isn’t a guarantee that false teachers will be called out during their life, but they will face judgement.


You are a Biblical literalist, right?


Yes for the most part. Not for everything of course.


So you know that many people, some who are deeply religious , could disagree with your "facts" that come straight out of the bible


Yes that’s what most of the discussion in this thread is about. I’m not sure what your point is.


As a Bible literalist, your "facts" are questioned or simply not believed by lots of other Christians who also consider the Bible to be a holy book. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say "I firmly believe...." instead of "I know for a fact...."


I firmly believe that Matthew 7:21-23 does for a fact say, “21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”

Yes I get that not everyone is a literalist, I was just quoting a verse. If you want to take these verses metaphorically or symbolically that’s your choice, although I wouldn’t see why in this case.


-----------
Another choice is fictional -- that the Bible is a book of stories, that, like most stories, has some historical elements.


--------
Progressive Christians like the dean will often use the terms "metaphor" or "symbolic" to characterize Bible stories as having value despite not being factual. They don't use the word "fiction" I don't think, but it is another way of saying that these are stories, that don't need to be factual have value.

******************
That’s what I don’t get about Christians who believe Bible stories have good messages but aren’t actually true. If the Bible stories are just teaching moral messages that even nonchristians believe in, like love and respect, then what is the point of calling yourself Christian then? What then is the differentiation between Christians and nonchristians?


Everyone picks and chooses what to take literally and what to interpret as metaphor (or no longer applicable Old Testament law) in the Bible. Every single Christian. Have you ever met a "Biblical literalist" who owns two coats? Jesus said to give one away. Literal instruction from Jesus. Believing in the existence of dinosaurs that existed millions of years ago over the "young earth" Biblical timeline is another common example.

The point of calling myself a Christian is to live my life guided by Jesus's incarnation, teachings, death, and resurrection - what He shows about how God loves us and wants us to love each other. The rest is just details.

As for "just stories," I'd recommend reading C.S. Lewis's essay on myth. He says myth is something much greater than fiction vs nonfiction, true vs false, that fulfills a great human need, and argues that Jesus fulfills myth by joining it with history. I read it as a teenager so it's been a while, but it had a big influence on me at the time.
Anonymous
Post 05/03/2019 08:59     Subject: Seminary Dean eschews resurrection
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
They may not be correct, but they are having an enormous influence - and no human force, so far, is impeding them. Is there anything in the Bible about when or how they will be spewn out?


I don’t know any verses about God spewing out false teachers, but I know for a fact that at the judgement, God will say to them “depart from me I never knew you”. It isn’t a guarantee that false teachers will be called out during their life, but they will face judgement.


You are a Biblical literalist, right?


Yes for the most part. Not for everything of course.


So you know that many people, some who are deeply religious , could disagree with your "facts" that come straight out of the bible


Yes that’s what most of the discussion in this thread is about. I’m not sure what your point is.


As a Bible literalist, your "facts" are questioned or simply not believed by lots of other Christians who also consider the Bible to be a holy book. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say "I firmly believe...." instead of "I know for a fact...."


I firmly believe that Matthew 7:21-23 does for a fact say, “21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”

Yes I get that not everyone is a literalist, I was just quoting a verse. If you want to take these verses metaphorically or symbolically that’s your choice, although I wouldn’t see why in this case.


-----------
Another choice is fictional -- that the Bible is a book of stories, that, like most stories, has some historical elements.


--------
Progressive Christians like the dean will often use the terms "metaphor" or "symbolic" to characterize Bible stories as having value despite not being factual. They don't use the word "fiction" I don't think, but it is another way of saying that these are stories, that don't need to be factual have value.

******************
That’s what I don’t get about Christians who believe Bible stories have good messages but aren’t actually true. If the Bible stories are just teaching moral messages that even nonchristians believe in, like love and respect, then what is the point of calling yourself Christian then? What then is the differentiation between Christians and nonchristians?


*******************

Good question and I think the answer is very individualized. I've noticed that people who say "I'm a Christian" usually are fundamentalist, "bible-believing" Christians who questions whether other types of Christians (e.g., progressive protestant denominations, Roman Catholics) are "true" Christians. The fundamentalists think that an essential part of being Christian is believing that the Bible is the inerrant word of God.

Other Christians will often identify themselves by their denomination (e.g., Episcopal, Methodist, Catholic) and view the Bible as their foundational book, but not as inerrant.
Anonymous
Post 05/02/2019 17:37     Subject: Seminary Dean eschews resurrection
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
They may not be correct, but they are having an enormous influence - and no human force, so far, is impeding them. Is there anything in the Bible about when or how they will be spewn out?


I don’t know any verses about God spewing out false teachers, but I know for a fact that at the judgement, God will say to them “depart from me I never knew you”. It isn’t a guarantee that false teachers will be called out during their life, but they will face judgement.


You are a Biblical literalist, right?


Yes for the most part. Not for everything of course.


So you know that many people, some who are deeply religious , could disagree with your "facts" that come straight out of the bible


Yes that’s what most of the discussion in this thread is about. I’m not sure what your point is.


As a Bible literalist, your "facts" are questioned or simply not believed by lots of other Christians who also consider the Bible to be a holy book. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say "I firmly believe...." instead of "I know for a fact...."


I firmly believe that Matthew 7:21-23 does for a fact say, “21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”

Yes I get that not everyone is a literalist, I was just quoting a verse. If you want to take these verses metaphorically or symbolically that’s your choice, although I wouldn’t see why in this case.


-----------
Another choice is fictional -- that the Bible is a book of stories, that, like most stories, has some historical elements.

--------
Progressive Christians like the dean will often use the terms "metaphor" or "symbolic" to characterize Bible stories as having value despite not being factual. They don't use the word "fiction" I don't think, but it is another way of saying that these are stories, that don't need to be factual have value.

******************
That’s what I don’t get about Christians who believe Bible stories have good messages but aren’t actually true. If the Bible stories are just teaching moral messages that even nonchristians believe in, like love and respect, then what is the point of calling yourself Christian then? What then is the differentiation between Christians and nonchristians?
Anonymous
Post 05/02/2019 08:56     Subject: Seminary Dean eschews resurrection
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
They may not be correct, but they are having an enormous influence - and no human force, so far, is impeding them. Is there anything in the Bible about when or how they will be spewn out?


I don’t know any verses about God spewing out false teachers, but I know for a fact that at the judgement, God will say to them “depart from me I never knew you”. It isn’t a guarantee that false teachers will be called out during their life, but they will face judgement.


You are a Biblical literalist, right?


Yes for the most part. Not for everything of course.


So you know that many people, some who are deeply religious , could disagree with your "facts" that come straight out of the bible


Yes that’s what most of the discussion in this thread is about. I’m not sure what your point is.


As a Bible literalist, your "facts" are questioned or simply not believed by lots of other Christians who also consider the Bible to be a holy book. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say "I firmly believe...." instead of "I know for a fact...."


I firmly believe that Matthew 7:21-23 does for a fact say, “21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”

Yes I get that not everyone is a literalist, I was just quoting a verse. If you want to take these verses metaphorically or symbolically that’s your choice, although I wouldn’t see why in this case.

-----------
Another choice is fictional -- that the Bible is a book of stories, that, like most stories, has some historical elements.

--------
Progressive Christians like the dean will often use the terms "metaphor" or "symbolic" to characterize Bible stories as having value despite not being factual. They don't use the word "fiction" I don't think, but it is another way of saying that these are stories, that don't need to be factual have value.
Anonymous
Post 05/01/2019 23:24     Subject: Seminary Dean eschews resurrection
Anonymous wrote:
They may not be correct, but they are having an enormous influence - and no human force, so far, is impeding them. Is there anything in the Bible about when or how they will be spewn out?


I don’t know any verses about God spewing out false teachers, but I know for a fact that at the judgement, God will say to them “depart from me I never knew you”. It isn’t a guarantee that false teachers will be called out during their life, but they will face judgement.


You are a Biblical literalist, right?


Yes for the most part. Not for everything of course.


So you know that many people, some who are deeply religious , could disagree with your "facts" that come straight out of the bible


Yes that’s what most of the discussion in this thread is about. I’m not sure what your point is.


As a Bible literalist, your "facts" are questioned or simply not believed by lots of other Christians who also consider the Bible to be a holy book. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say "I firmly believe...." instead of "I know for a fact...."

I firmly believe that Matthew 7:21-23 does for a fact say, “21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”

Yes I get that not everyone is a literalist, I was just quoting a verse. If you want to take these verses metaphorically or symbolically that’s your choice, although I wouldn’t see why in this case.

Another choice is fictional -- that the Bible is a book of stories, that, like most stories, has some historical elements.
Anonymous
Post 05/01/2019 19:23     Subject: Seminary Dean eschews resurrection
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Has anyone seen this Kristof Easter interview in the New York Times? https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/20/opinion/sunday/christian-easter-serene-jones.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage

He interviews the dean of Union Theological Seminary, who is a United Church of Christ minister and a former Yale professor who doesn’t believe in the virgin birth or the resurrection and isn’t sure about heaven. Still, she considers herself a Christian.

What do you think?


Just like you can be a Christian and not necessarily believe that the Earth has been created in 7 days.
Why is it so important how Jesus was created or born or Mary ditto? The most important is the message of love. EVANGELIA.
Love one another. Who cares about the small stuff?


Its one thing to believe that the earth wasn’t created in a literal 7 days, but it’s another to deny the virgin birth, resurrection, miracles, the reality of heaven and hell, eternal destiny of the soul, belief in Jesus Christ as means to salvation, all while being a CHRISTIAN minister.

To nonchristians Easter is just a symbol of love, rebirth, renewal, and that’s fine because they don’t believe in God or the Bible. So of course Easter is symbolic for them.

But for Christians it means a lot more. It means a LITERAL resurrection. It has to or Christians have no salvation. If Jesus didn’t literally conquer death and pay for our sins, all of Christianity is pointless. Evangelism is pointless. The Bible is pointless. Being a Christian is pointless then. So there HAS to be a literal resurrection for a Christian, it shouldn’t be just “small stuff.”


And for a lot of Christians (people like the Dean excepted) salvation means everlasting life in heaven, with Jesus, his father, God, and if you're Catholic, the blessed virgin Mary, whom Catholics believe also ascended to heaven (but they call it assumption, not ascension).

Without the salvation offered by believing in Jesus's ascension, there is also no hell, where people who don't believe in Jesus go to suffer eternally, for refusing to believe in the salvation that Jesus offered.

It's true that some people never even learn about Jesus while they're alive, so can't make the decision to believe or not, but with the work of missionaries and modern communication, more and more people are given the choice between believing/not believing, heaven/hell.

What's happening though, is that belief in the resurrection is declining! Deans of Christian seminaries don't believe. People who were raised in Christianity reject it and don't teach it to their children. Other self-described Christians don't think belief in the literal resurrection is vital to being Christian.

They won't find out if they're right until after they're dead, but it's obviously a chance they are willing to take.


+1. I think these people like the dean are more interested in politicizing Jesus and morphing him into just a regular guy with nice happy feeling messages, rather than actually understanding why he came to earth in the first place, or the whole point of Christianity.

Just goes to show that not everyone who calls themselves Christian are Christian, even deans of theological seminaries. You have to be very aware and discerning of false teachers these days.



I've heard no call for her to resign her post, her ideas might be pretty mainstream.


That doesn’t make them correct. It’s not a popular option poll. Jesus is clear that there are many, many who will claim to follow him but will be “spewn out” by Him because of false teachings


They may not be correct, but they are having an enormous influence - and no human force, so far, is impeding them. Is there anything in the Bible about when or how they will be spewn out?


I don’t know any verses about God spewing out false teachers, but I know for a fact that at the judgement, God will say to them “depart from me I never knew you”. It isn’t a guarantee that false teachers will be called out during their life, but they will face judgement.


You are a Biblical literalist, right?


Yes for the most part. Not for everything of course.


So you know that many people, some who are deeply religious , could disagree with your "facts" that come straight out of the bible


Yes that’s what most of the discussion in this thread is about. I’m not sure what your point is.


As a Bible literalist, your "facts" are questioned or simply not believed by lots of other Christians who also consider the Bible to be a holy book. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say "I firmly believe...." instead of "I know for a fact...."


I firmly believe that Matthew 7:21-23 does for a fact say, “21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”

Yes I get that not everyone is a literalist, I was just quoting a verse. If you want to take these verses metaphorically or symbolically that’s your choice, although I wouldn’t see why in this case.