Anonymous
01/15/2019 10:15
Subject: Gillette ad on toxic masculinity... have you seen it?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:DH here: I thought it was lame, insulting, and will backfire. Whatever market research says about who does the shopping, I find it very hard to believe men don’t have or express preferences about shaving items, which are reasonably personal, and I suspect this is going to hurt Gillette more than it helps. Woke Capital is tiresome and is due a comeuppance. We shall see, the reaction will be interesting.
What about it did you find insulting? Genuinely? To me it seemed very pro man, just pro good man.
Replace “man” in your comment with any other group of people and see how it sounds to your ear.
NP. Feminist isn't a compliment. Neither is toxic masculinity. "The best a man can get" isn't an insult.
“Hey, men, it’s important you are one of the good ones, not one of the bad ones, and you need reminding of this....”
“Hey, African Americans.....”
“Hey, Jews.....”
“Hey Muslims.......”
If you can’t hear the implicit negativity, that’s fine, we just interpret the commercial differently. No surprise. But my point is that there are lots of men who do, even some of the good ones. They will be less likely to buy Gillette. Will they make it up from somewhere else? Maybe.
PP you keep talking about the commercial and that is fair but do you not see the core problem that this commercial is tackling? I think, for example, that radical muslims absolutely are facing negativity because they have been violent and have hurt people. In the same vein, men are responsible for mass shootings, responsible for assault and harassment of women. Not all men of course, but this is a problem in how we are raising boys. A problem we need to tackle as a society. Maybe Gillette isn't getting 100% right but I think they're getting closer to it then we have gotten so far.
Anonymous
01/15/2019 09:58
Subject: Gillette ad on toxic masculinity... have you seen it?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:DH here: I thought it was lame, insulting, and will backfire. Whatever market research says about who does the shopping, I find it very hard to believe men don’t have or express preferences about shaving items, which are reasonably personal, and I suspect this is going to hurt Gillette more than it helps. Woke Capital is tiresome and is due a comeuppance. We shall see, the reaction will be interesting.
What about it did you find insulting? Genuinely? To me it seemed very pro man, just pro good man.
Replace “man” in your comment with any other group of people and see how it sounds to your ear.
NP. Feminist isn't a compliment. Neither is toxic masculinity. "The best a man can get" isn't an insult.
“Hey, men, it’s important you are one of the good ones, not one of the bad ones, and you need reminding of this....”
“Hey, African Americans.....”
“Hey, Jews.....”
“Hey Muslims.......”
If you can’t hear the implicit negativity, that’s fine, we just interpret the commercial differently. No surprise. But my point is that there are lots of men who do, even some of the good ones. They will be less likely to buy Gillette. Will they make it up from somewhere else? Maybe.
Anonymous
01/15/2019 09:56
Subject: Re:Gillette ad on toxic masculinity... have you seen it?
It’s too PC. There’s one white man stopping a fight between boys; otherwise all the white men and boys are aggressors or victims, and all the other men and boys shown in s positive light are minorities. There would be less, not more, “toxic masculinity” if there were more minority males raised by a mom and a dad, but advertisers aren’t going to touch that.
Anonymous
01/15/2019 09:48
Subject: Gillette ad on toxic masculinity... have you seen it?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:DH here: I thought it was lame, insulting, and will backfire. Whatever market research says about who does the shopping, I find it very hard to believe men don’t have or express preferences about shaving items, which are reasonably personal, and I suspect this is going to hurt Gillette more than it helps. Woke Capital is tiresome and is due a comeuppance. We shall see, the reaction will be interesting.
What about it did you find insulting? Genuinely? To me it seemed very pro man, just pro good man.
Replace “man” in your comment with any other group of people and see how it sounds to your ear.
NP. Feminist isn't a compliment. Neither is toxic masculinity. "The best a man can get" isn't an insult.
Anonymous
01/15/2019 09:47
Subject: Gillette ad on toxic masculinity... have you seen it?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:DH here: I thought it was lame, insulting, and will backfire. Whatever market research says about who does the shopping, I find it very hard to believe men don’t have or express preferences about shaving items, which are reasonably personal, and I suspect this is going to hurt Gillette more than it helps. Woke Capital is tiresome and is due a comeuppance. We shall see, the reaction will be interesting.
What about it did you find insulting? Genuinely? To me it seemed very pro man, just pro good man.
Replace “man” in your comment with any other group of people and see how it sounds to your ear.
Fair point. I have posted a few times in this thread about how we need language for this situation that doesn't denigrate the whole of masculinity.
Anonymous
01/15/2019 09:44
Subject: Gillette ad on toxic masculinity... have you seen it?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:DH here: I thought it was lame, insulting, and will backfire. Whatever market research says about who does the shopping, I find it very hard to believe men don’t have or express preferences about shaving items, which are reasonably personal, and I suspect this is going to hurt Gillette more than it helps. Woke Capital is tiresome and is due a comeuppance. We shall see, the reaction will be interesting.
What about it did you find insulting? Genuinely? To me it seemed very pro man, just pro good man.
Replace “man” in your comment with any other group of people and see how it sounds to your ear.
Anonymous
01/15/2019 09:42
Subject: Gillette ad on toxic masculinity... have you seen it?
jsteele wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:DH here: I thought it was lame, insulting, and will backfire. Whatever market research says about who does the shopping, I find it very hard to believe men don’t have or express preferences about shaving items, which are reasonably personal, and I suspect this is going to hurt Gillette more than it helps. Woke Capital is tiresome and is due a comeuppance. We shall see, the reaction will be interesting.
I think you’re underestimating the importance of social issues for younger adult men. They’re also the same group switching to the dollar shave club, and similar outfits.
Right. And Dollar Shave Club isn't doing silly, pointless virture-signaling bullsh!t like this. They're just focusing on selling an adequate product at a reduced cost relative to the major competitors.
The fact that Gillette spent money on this ad, which doesn't tout the benefits or technology of their products, or explain why I as a consumer should choose theirs over a competitor's offerings, is proof that they are overcapitalized, and have plenty of money to throw around in stuff like this. Do you know what the budget for spots like that are? Being in the production and post business, I can probably accurately guesstimate it, and it's shockingly high. When Gillette has that kind of money to pour into something like that, it tells me their products are overpriced.
They aren't paying anything for discussions on websites like this, or the tweets and Facebook posts about the ad. If Gillette had produced an ad explaining the benefits of their product, would there be a post about it here? They wanted their ad to go viral. Mission accomplished.
Viral, yes. But will it drive sales up or down? I guess we will just have to see. I’m sure their focus groups were positive. But I don’t think Gillette is the kind of brand that actually builds awareness in that way—everyone who shaves knows they exist. This, to me, is their apologia for producing a man’s product in the #metoo era. I think you are underestimating how negatively this ad is being perceived by many. In the immortal words of William Goldman, though, nobody knows anything.
Anonymous
01/15/2019 09:29
Subject: Gillette ad on toxic masculinity... have you seen it?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:DH here: I thought it was lame, insulting, and will backfire. Whatever market research says about who does the shopping, I find it very hard to believe men don’t have or express preferences about shaving items, which are reasonably personal, and I suspect this is going to hurt Gillette more than it helps. Woke Capital is tiresome and is due a comeuppance. We shall see, the reaction will be interesting.
What about it did you find insulting? Genuinely? To me it seemed very pro man, just pro good man.
How would you react to an ad for a product predominantly used by females with base line message that women have to break the toxic feminist culture and become good women? It just shows how poorly all men are thought of by our society. The baseline being men are bad because they are men.
I actually like that it addressed the issue while still selling a very positive view of masculinity. Interesting that we viewed it so differently. I think fighting toxic masculinity needs a big branding makeover. It's important but we can't kill a generation of men's self esteem to get there or we'll have a bunch of creepy MRA losers.
When you label advocates for men's rights as "creepy", you're perpetuating the very problem you say you want to cure.
Just sayin'
Do you believe the population who currently identifies as 'men's rights advocates' are men you want to have your sons model their behavior on? There are absolutely types of feminists that I don't want my daughter to emulate. The current crop of 'men's rights advocates' focus on where men are held back, they do not teach how to be good men. They teach that women have stolen things from them and that they are entitled to sex from women. That movement is, in fact, creepy.
If you want men's rights advocacy to look more like teaching men how to be good, strong, respectful but still masculine then you have a LONGGGGGG way to go.
Anonymous
01/15/2019 09:13
Subject: Re:Gillette ad on toxic masculinity... have you seen it?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Meaningless ego ad. Yes, I appreciate the important statement they are making but it's not going to sell more Gillette products. It may well be shared across social media but it will have little affect on their sales. Sorry for being a turd but I spent 40 years in advertising and marketing. It's a beautiful piece of film but that's it.
Ads are not only for selling a product. Sometimes they're about a statement.
Exactly, sometimes it is about corporate responsibility.
Completely agree with that. But they can do both.
Anonymous
01/15/2019 09:06
Subject: Gillette ad on toxic masculinity... have you seen it?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:It's very good. And imo it's the way we should culturally start talking about boys in general.
The problem with the phrase 'toxic masculinity' is that it can so easily be construed as 'masculinity is toxic'. We need to preserve the good in masculinity. Show them how to be strong good men.
I personally am amazed at the kids programming on nick and Disney, how prolific the 'strong smart girl's protagonist is versus a boy. A boy is either an anthropomorphized animal or object (Mickey, blaze etc) or Ryder. We have done a fantastic job getting feminist messaging into children's ears. We need to do the same thing for boys.
I absolutely agree. When I raised this issue with my highly-educated feminist acquaintances, they responded with “ah, boys will be fine, they had years of privilege”.
and this is why people do not like feminists
Anonymous
01/15/2019 09:05
Subject: Gillette ad on toxic masculinity... have you seen it?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:It's very good. And imo it's the way we should culturally start talking about boys in general.
The problem with the phrase 'toxic masculinity' is that it can so easily be construed as 'masculinity is toxic'. We need to preserve the good in masculinity. Show them how to be strong good men.
I personally am amazed at the kids programming on nick and Disney, how prolific the 'strong smart girl's protagonist is versus a boy. A boy is either an anthropomorphized animal or object (Mickey, blaze etc) or Ryder. We have done a fantastic job getting feminist messaging into children's ears. We need to do the same thing for boys.
I'm a mother of boys who has never had a problem finding films for them with strong and interesting male roles. What I do have a problem is finding films for them in which female characters play equally prominent roles.
Compare those tv shows you cite to roles in Hollywood films. How many female roles vs. male roles and who gets the most lines? How many superhero movies are primarily about female superheroes? I was so happy to bring them to Wonder Woman. I have spent a lifetime watching movies about men, or movies about women pining for men. I'd like my boys to grow up watching movies in which both boys and girls, men and women play strong roles and get generous amounts of time to talk on screen and not just about the other sex.
I agree generally but not in the toddler years which is where I am. I honestly didnt notice until I had DS, DD is 3 and DS is almost 2 and there just seems to be crap targeted at him. PJ Masks where kids leave their homes in the middle of the night, animals, objects and Ryder. And some of that is great. Daniel Tiger is great for both. But compare that to...
Girls:
Elena of Avalor
Frozen
Sofia
Fancy Nancy
Nella
Peppa Pig
Vampirina
Shimmer and shine
Neutral/equal:
Bubble guppies
Mickey and co
Daniel tiger
Boys:
Paw Patrol
Puppy dog pals
Blaze
Muppet Babies
Pj masks
For the girls there are so many strong smart great girls. I agree historically it has been the other way. But the pendulum is swinging and I want role models for my son too. In terms of quality and quantity girls preschool programming knocks boys programming out of the park. Where is the African american ryder show? We have Nella and elena and vampirina...looking at diversity. Nothing for boys.
I'm a feminist too...I believe part of feminism is teaching my son to be a good man. Teaching all of our sons to be good men. And having media that exemplifies what we want a "good man" to be is important and lacking in preschool.
The cynical part of me says there’s more/quality shows and movies aimed at girls because it’s easier for toy marketing, which is where the really big money is. They can have princess dolls! All kinds of dolls. Big ones, plush ones, smaller ones. And the houses and accessories too! And dress-up clothes. I feel like when the kids networks make new shows, they always think about how many toys they can make, and it’s much easier to make toys aimed at girls. Paw Patrol is about the only exception. Even the PJ Masks toys seem low effort compared to how much Paw Patrol stuff there is.
I wish there were Blaze toys. My kid loves that show.
Anonymous
01/15/2019 09:05
Subject: Gillette ad on toxic masculinity... have you seen it?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:DH here: I thought it was lame, insulting, and will backfire. Whatever market research says about who does the shopping, I find it very hard to believe men don’t have or express preferences about shaving items, which are reasonably personal, and I suspect this is going to hurt Gillette more than it helps. Woke Capital is tiresome and is due a comeuppance. We shall see, the reaction will be interesting.
What about it did you find insulting? Genuinely? To me it seemed very pro man, just pro good man.
How would you react to an ad for a product predominantly used by females with base line message that women have to break the toxic feminist culture and become good women? It just shows how poorly all men are thought of by our society. The baseline being men are bad because they are men.
I actually like that it addressed the issue while still selling a very positive view of masculinity. Interesting that we viewed it so differently. I think fighting toxic masculinity needs a big branding makeover. It's important but we can't kill a generation of men's self esteem to get there or we'll have a bunch of creepy MRA losers.
When you label advocates for men's rights as "creepy", you're perpetuating the very problem you say you want to cure.
Just sayin'
Anonymous
01/15/2019 09:04
Subject: Gillette ad on toxic masculinity... have you seen it?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Mixed feelings.
I think ANY man or woman should step in if a child is being bullied, or break up a fight, or stop their friend from doing something embarrassing. NOBODY should be assaulting anyone. Women engage in sexual abuse too, you know. How often are teachers in the news for sleeping with students?
But I am a strong woman myself, and I don’t want a man who is weaker than me. I like masculinity. I like a strong, decent man. Why can’t a man be strong AND decent?
Is this your first time on DCUM? There are a ton of parents on this board who recommend MYOB or turning their backs rather than intervene.
And this is why I can’t take any of this #metoo BS seriously. You have these STRONG and POWERFUL women who are completely willing to stand by and watch boys bully smaller and weaker boys. Shame on you. You are part of the problem. Raise strong yet compassionate men. Not weak ninnies too afraid to speak up.
Anonymous
01/15/2019 09:02
Subject: Re:Gillette ad on toxic masculinity... have you seen it?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Meaningless ego ad. Yes, I appreciate the important statement they are making but it's not going to sell more Gillette products. It may well be shared across social media but it will have little affect on their sales. Sorry for being a turd but I spent 40 years in advertising and marketing. It's a beautiful piece of film but that's it.
Ads are not only for selling a product. Sometimes they're about a statement.
Exactly, sometimes it is about corporate responsibility.
Then I'd say their first responsibility should be to get some more women on their BOD, rather than lecturing their customers
Anonymous
01/15/2019 08:54
Subject: Re:Gillette ad on toxic masculinity... have you seen it?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Meaningless ego ad. Yes, I appreciate the important statement they are making but it's not going to sell more Gillette products. It may well be shared across social media but it will have little affect on their sales. Sorry for being a turd but I spent 40 years in advertising and marketing. It's a beautiful piece of film but that's it.
Ads are not only for selling a product. Sometimes they're about a statement.
Exactly, sometimes it is about corporate responsibility.