Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Transgender people are literally in a fight for their lives, with a government administration that wants to deny their existence and make it so that they can be discriminated against and denied jobs, housing, etc. because of their gender identity, have a 40+% rate of suicide if they are not supported and affirmed, are murdered at alarming rates because they are constantly dehumanized by fellow human beings. But yes, it's just so unfair that a transgender person won a bike race. Let's all post and rant about that.

You people are despicable.

This is why I support the trans gender woman who won!

So all women should bow and scrape for a man in dress? Sorry dude. I’ve worked too hard to be overshadowed as a woman to be pushed to sideline by poseur.

Anonymous wrote:yup, competing against women as a trans woman is basically doping

I agree

in a way it is since they have testosterone and the females athletes don't - wouldn't a male athlete taking testosterone supplement be guilty of doping?

I am coming at this conversation as a former female track athlete.

Regarding transgender male to female, I think it’s ok if they have undergone horomone therapy.

What I think is the trickier question is the naturally high T women, being debated in track right now.

On the one hand, if they are going to make an upper limit on T for women competitors, maybe there should be an upper limit on male competitors as well.

On the other hand, don’t many Olympic athletes have unusual physical attitbutes such as Michael Phelps’ long arms? Maybe we should treat T the same as other physical attributes and part of that is what make the athlete special?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I guess if it was you or your family member whose life was at stake, you'd actually care too. But you must only care about things that affect you directly. So of course if you or your kid hypothetically lose some kind of sports advantage, that's the issue you care about. Such a sad state.

Huh? What transgender person's life is at stake if they aren't allowed to compete with biologically born females?

I wholeheartedly support recognition, identity acceptance, therapies, and inclusion of transgender persons. But this is simply not fair to females in sports. A third competing category for transgender persons would be awesome.

Um, I think you need to go back and reread the prior comments to understand this one. They were saying that transgender persons' lives are at stake, yet all people seem to care about is that it is unfair for them to win sports competition. You are simply proving the point.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Transgender people are literally in a fight for their lives, with a government administration that wants to deny their existence and make it so that they can be discriminated against and denied jobs, housing, etc. because of their gender identity, have a 40+% rate of suicide if they are not supported and affirmed, are murdered at alarming rates because they are constantly dehumanized by fellow human beings. But yes, it's just so unfair that a transgender person won a bike race. Let's all post and rant about that.

You people are despicable.

If transgender people want support, it would be wise if they suggested to their own that competing against women while not suppressing testosterone is not going to go over well with the public at large.

Women are still working to achieve equality in sports. Having biological men rampage through and demand "their" place in them - while any biological woman taking testosterone would be disqualified for doping - just shows the world that transwomen may say they're women, but they behave like men.

It's possible Jeff's doing a lot of deleting, but the posts I've seen on this thread are supportive of transgender people in general. Pick your pronouns. Pick your name. Wear what you want to wear. Be you! But realize that male bodied people have physical advantages over female bodied people, and recognize when it's inappropriate to insist your male body is that of a woman. Sports is one of those areas.

+ a million

Anonymous wrote:I guess if it was you or your family member whose life was at stake, you'd actually care too. But you must only care about things that affect you directly. So of course if you or your kid hypothetically lose some kind of sports advantage, that's the issue you care about. Such a sad state.

This goes both ways. Do you realize how recently women have received access to sports? My mother was told that exercise would hurt her. Not even competing in sports, just exercise! Women were too fragile.

When I was a kid, boys could do all kinds of sports. Girls could do dance or gymnastics. If a girl liked soccer too much, she might be a lesbian. But we didn't use that word in polite company, so I wasn't actually sure why the adults were steering me away from soccer.

Women are still in a fight for reproductive rights, rights to healthcare, rights to be equally employed across various fields.

Trans people are as well, absolutely. But they aren't going to gain allies by shoving down women.

If sports as a biologically male person is your hill to die on, then be prepared for a fight. Women have been fighting this battle for a long long time, and I don't expect we're going to want to see our daughter and granddaughters lose out on our gains. Girls and women deserve equal access to athletics. So do trans people. Trans people do not deserve access at the expense of women and girls.

Anonymous wrote:Transgender people are literally in a fight for their lives, with a government administration that wants to deny their existence and make it so that they can be discriminated against and denied jobs, housing, etc. because of their gender identity, have a 40+% rate of suicide if they are not supported and affirmed, are murdered at alarming rates because they are constantly dehumanized by fellow human beings. But yes, it's just so unfair that a transgender person won a bike race. Let's all post and rant about that.

You people are despicable.

If transgender people want support, it would be wise if they suggested to their own that competing against women while not suppressing testosterone is not going to go over well with the public at large.

Women are still working to achieve equality in sports. Having biological men rampage through and demand "their" place in them - while any biological woman taking testosterone would be disqualified for doping - just shows the world that transwomen may say they're women, but they behave like men.

It's possible Jeff's doing a lot of deleting, but the posts I've seen on this thread are supportive of transgender people in general. Pick your pronouns. Pick your name. Wear what you want to wear. Be you! But realize that male bodied people have physical advantages over female bodied people, and recognize when it's inappropriate to insist your male body is that of a woman. Sports is one of those areas.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think this is an interesting discussion and I don't know where I stand on it yet. Having a "trans" category for sports, probably wouldn't solve everything. Are you going to need 2 (or more) trans categories -- male to female and female to male? And what about people with gender issues that exist at birth (ex. ambiguous genitalia)? And are there enough trans people competing in sports to fill this new category?

To me the issue is perhaps most important at the high school level. I think at that level, inclusivity should be one goal.

The latest figure I've seen is that an estimated 0.6 percent of the adult US population identifies as transgender. While it is likely a larger percentage for younger people (say teens to 20s), its still a very small segment of the population. So, I'm I just wondering how big of issue transgender individuals in sports really is.

I agree that the high school level is most important, but disagree that it should be about inclusivity.

At the high schoolnlevel it should be a strict literal interpretation of Title IX and focused on providing biological girls the opportunity to compete on a fair playing field, with other girls, and not made to take second fiddle to boys who happen to identify as girls at this point in their life.

This is about fairness at a basic level.

It is also about safety. A biological male has so many natural physical advantages over girls of the same age that are separate from just testosterone.

and a biological female has natural physical advantages of boys of the same age. Why are we not talking about this fact?

What athletic advantages do biological females have over biological males, where transboys are placing better than biological boys?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Well maybe we are due for a larger conversation about the value of sports in our society. If it’s to bring people together, then competition is just a fun side show and it shouldn’t matter who wins. It’s just for fun.. If it’s about identifying the best woman or man, then we probably need a trans category. What is the point of being the best at something? Does it add to our society or is it another source of division?

OP here. This post is the closest to anyone on dcum that seems to 'get it'. Thank you.

I play soccer in social leagues. Even in our social league we have tiers. I play in the "trip over my feet" tier. I have friends in the "played competitively at some point" tier. It makes it more fun for all of us. Sometimes, my team will scrimmage with a team in the top tier, and it's a joke. Those of us who played rec as kids and not since then are not a challenge for those who played club through HS or even in college. Swapping teammates helps make things more fun, but because there is absolutely nothing riding on this other than pride, for the most part the really good players are quite inclusive of those of us who aren't.

For something like accolades that can lead to scholarships, jobs, olympic medals, there is no way people are going to be anything other than striving to be the very best.

If we're going to open up womens sports to men, then perhaps we should open up childrens sports to adults. As I said, I'm a poor soccer player but I love the sport. I bet if I played on a team of 5 year olds, I'd have a chance of being good for a change!

yup, competing against women as a trans woman is basically doping

I agree

Anonymous wrote:I think this is an interesting discussion and I don't know where I stand on it yet. Having a "trans" category for sports, probably wouldn't solve everything. Are you going to need 2 (or more) trans categories -- male to female and female to male? And what about people with gender issues that exist at birth (ex. ambiguous genitalia)? And are there enough trans people competing in sports to fill this new category?

To me the issue is perhaps most important at the high school level. I think at that level, inclusivity should be one goal.

The latest figure I've seen is that an estimated 0.6 percent of the adult US population identifies as transgender. While it is likely a larger percentage for younger people (say teens to 20s), its still a very small segment of the population. So, I'm I just wondering how big of issue transgender individuals in sports really is.

Athletic scholarships for college are a huge issue for kids, and is something that Title 9 worked to try to make equitable for girls.

When 2 of the 3 top runners in a major high school meet in Connecticut are biologically male, who are not suppressing their testosterone (thus effectively doping, if they were biologically female), I'd argue that affects how many biological girls can access those athletic scholarships, and thus get access to colleges they might not be able to get into without top athletic accomplishments, or not be able to afford without athletic scholarships.

If it is not a big issue, then it's just as reasonable to suggest that people only compete in the competitions of their biological sex. If it is a big issue, then how to make it fair for biological girls must be discussed.

Anonymous wrote:I guess if it was you or your family member whose life was at stake, you'd actually care too. But you must only care about things that affect you directly. So of course if you or your kid hypothetically lose some kind of sports advantage, that's the issue you care about. Such a sad state.

Huh? What transgender person's life is at stake if they aren't allowed to compete with biologically born females?

I wholeheartedly support recognition, identity acceptance, therapies, and inclusion of transgender persons. But this is simply not fair to females in sports. A third competing category for transgender persons would be awesome.

Anonymous wrote:Transgender people are literally in a fight for their lives, with a government administration that wants to deny their existence and make it so that they can be discriminated against and denied jobs, housing, etc. because of their gender identity, have a 40+% rate of suicide if they are not supported and affirmed, are murdered at alarming rates because they are constantly dehumanized by fellow human beings. But yes, it's just so unfair that a transgender person won a bike race. Let's all post and rant about that.

You people are despicable.

This is why I support the trans gender woman who won!

I guess if it was you or your family member whose life was at stake, you'd actually care too. But you must only care about things that affect you directly. So of course if you or your kid hypothetically lose some kind of sports advantage, that's the issue you care about. Such a sad state.

Anonymous wrote:Transgender people are literally in a fight for their lives, with a government administration that wants to deny their existence and make it so that they can be discriminated against and denied jobs, housing, etc. because of their gender identity, have a 40+% rate of suicide if they are not supported and affirmed, are murdered at alarming rates because they are constantly dehumanized by fellow human beings. But yes, it's just so unfair that a transgender person won a bike race. Let's all post and rant about that.

You people are despicable.

Wow, overreact much.