Anonymous
09/12/2018 13:10
Subject: Re:USMNT
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Do people think DCUM is a good place for furthering the pro/rel discussion? If so, I'd recommend the topic have its own thread so it doesn't take over this one or others.
I'd also note that there's a very good 600 plus page thread on bigsoccer on the topic ( http://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/the-all-encompassing-pro-rel-thread-on-soccer-in-the-usa.2029961/), with what I think is a great intro from one of the moderators:
"So here is the one-and-only thread on this forum dedicated to the pros and cons of ditching the current system in the United States and adopting promotion and relegation between different leagues/divisions.
Everybody is allowed to post here. Anything I deem relevant to the conversation is applicable. As the moderator of this forum, I am the only person who gets to decide what is appropriate for this thread. That means that I don't want previous conflicts between posters from other threads, forums, or social media platforms carried over here. On the other hand, the topic of pro/rel is going on outside this thread and outside BigSoccer.com, and many relatively well-known people in the US soccer community are involved in it. References to such people and other conversations, social media statements, etc. are absolutely part of the conversation here.
Finally--if you cannot make the distinction between having your ideas attacked, criticized, or even mocked; versus being personally attacked, this thread is not for you.
If I find the time, I might go through the last thread on this subject and asset-mine some of the more level-headed posts for and against the concept. Others are free to do so as well. Or, start fresh and lay out your case here. Keeping in mind, of course, that any and all posts in thread are subject to analysis, criticism, and so on. "
OP here. I don't think that promotion/relegation discussion should be off limits. Most DCUMAD have their kids in the pay-to-play system, which is directly linked to the absence of promotion/relegation. Someone posted a link to 3four3 blog on this thread that summarizes the problem nicely. It also affects the national team, the original topic of this thread. I agree some folks might take things too personally, but that's another discussion. I found many posts on this thread quite helpful. Just my two cents.
I don't think pro/rel should be off limits as a discussion topic, but I'd hate to see it take over every thread the way it has a tendency to take over huge swaths of soccer twitter. I think it needs to be at least somewhat corralled. The concept of US soccer reform and pro/rel could be argued to be relevant to every thread about soccer, but that doesn't mean the topic should be discussed on multiple threads here.
Anonymous
09/12/2018 13:04
Subject: Re:USMNT
Anonymous wrote:Do people think DCUM is a good place for furthering the pro/rel discussion? If so, I'd recommend the topic have its own thread so it doesn't take over this one or others.
I'd also note that there's a very good 600 plus page thread on bigsoccer on the topic ( http://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/the-all-encompassing-pro-rel-thread-on-soccer-in-the-usa.2029961/), with what I think is a great intro from one of the moderators:
"So here is the one-and-only thread on this forum dedicated to the pros and cons of ditching the current system in the United States and adopting promotion and relegation between different leagues/divisions.
Everybody is allowed to post here. Anything I deem relevant to the conversation is applicable. As the moderator of this forum, I am the only person who gets to decide what is appropriate for this thread. That means that I don't want previous conflicts between posters from other threads, forums, or social media platforms carried over here. On the other hand, the topic of pro/rel is going on outside this thread and outside BigSoccer.com, and many relatively well-known people in the US soccer community are involved in it. References to such people and other conversations, social media statements, etc. are absolutely part of the conversation here.
Finally--if you cannot make the distinction between having your ideas attacked, criticized, or even mocked; versus being personally attacked, this thread is not for you.
If I find the time, I might go through the last thread on this subject and asset-mine some of the more level-headed posts for and against the concept. Others are free to do so as well. Or, start fresh and lay out your case here. Keeping in mind, of course, that any and all posts in thread are subject to analysis, criticism, and so on. "
OP here. I don't think that promotion/relegation discussion should be off limits. Most DCUMAD have their kids in the pay-to-play system, which is directly linked to the absence of promotion/relegation. Someone posted a link to 3four3 blog on this thread that summarizes the problem nicely. It also affects the national team, the original topic of this thread. I agree some folks might take things too personally, but that's another discussion. I found many posts on this thread quite helpful. Just my two cents.
Anonymous
09/12/2018 12:28
Subject: Re:USMNT
Do people think DCUM is a good place for furthering the pro/rel discussion? If so, I'd recommend the topic have its own thread so it doesn't take over this one or others.
I'd also note that there's a very good 600 plus page thread on bigsoccer on the topic ( http://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/the-all-encompassing-pro-rel-thread-on-soccer-in-the-usa.2029961/), with what I think is a great intro from one of the moderators:
"So here is the one-and-only thread on this forum dedicated to the pros and cons of ditching the current system in the United States and adopting promotion and relegation between different leagues/divisions.
Everybody is allowed to post here. Anything I deem relevant to the conversation is applicable. As the moderator of this forum, I am the only person who gets to decide what is appropriate for this thread. That means that I don't want previous conflicts between posters from other threads, forums, or social media platforms carried over here. On the other hand, the topic of pro/rel is going on outside this thread and outside BigSoccer.com, and many relatively well-known people in the US soccer community are involved in it. References to such people and other conversations, social media statements, etc. are absolutely part of the conversation here.
Finally--if you cannot make the distinction between having your ideas attacked, criticized, or even mocked; versus being personally attacked, this thread is not for you.
If I find the time, I might go through the last thread on this subject and asset-mine some of the more level-headed posts for and against the concept. Others are free to do so as well. Or, start fresh and lay out your case here. Keeping in mind, of course, that any and all posts in thread are subject to analysis, criticism, and so on. "
I'd also note that there's a very good 600 plus page thread on bigsoccer on the topic ( http://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/the-all-encompassing-pro-rel-thread-on-soccer-in-the-usa.2029961/), with what I think is a great intro from one of the moderators:
"So here is the one-and-only thread on this forum dedicated to the pros and cons of ditching the current system in the United States and adopting promotion and relegation between different leagues/divisions.
Everybody is allowed to post here. Anything I deem relevant to the conversation is applicable. As the moderator of this forum, I am the only person who gets to decide what is appropriate for this thread. That means that I don't want previous conflicts between posters from other threads, forums, or social media platforms carried over here. On the other hand, the topic of pro/rel is going on outside this thread and outside BigSoccer.com, and many relatively well-known people in the US soccer community are involved in it. References to such people and other conversations, social media statements, etc. are absolutely part of the conversation here.
Finally--if you cannot make the distinction between having your ideas attacked, criticized, or even mocked; versus being personally attacked, this thread is not for you.
If I find the time, I might go through the last thread on this subject and asset-mine some of the more level-headed posts for and against the concept. Others are free to do so as well. Or, start fresh and lay out your case here. Keeping in mind, of course, that any and all posts in thread are subject to analysis, criticism, and so on. "
Anonymous
09/12/2018 12:21
Subject: USMNT
RantingSoccerDad wrote:Geez, another pro/rel discussion? OK, here we go again:
https://rantingsoccerdad.com/all-about-promotion-relegation/
In short -- it might be a good idea for taking U.S. soccer to the next level, but there are legitimate issues that even Riccardo Silva's Deloitte report pointed out, and the ideologues who are pushing it have surely set back the idea by a decade or more.
In the meantime -- I'm confused. Is Taylor Twellman the modern-day Ben Franklin?
Thank you for posting this, a very good and fair assessment.
Anonymous
09/12/2018 12:13
Subject: USMNT
Anonymous wrote:RantingSoccerDad wrote:Geez, another pro/rel discussion? OK, here we go again:
https://rantingsoccerdad.com/all-about-promotion-relegation/
In short -- it might be a good idea for taking U.S. soccer to the next level, but there are legitimate issues that even Riccardo Silva's Deloitte report pointed out, and the ideologues who are pushing it have surely set back the idea by a decade or more.
In the meantime -- I'm confused. Is Taylor Twellman the modern-day Ben Franklin?
I'll grant that there are some true jerks and wackos on twitter who tend to dominate the debate on whatever issue they are obsessed over.
The guy I quoted is not one of the wackos.
In short - the FIFA system (independent clubs competing in pro/rel system; transfer market ; training compensation to repay youth clubs for investments in players; solidarity payments to reward youth clubs for successful player development) - is vastly superior when it comes to incentivizing player development. That is not a hypothetical statement. We don't have to theorize about how such a system "might" work. It is the system in place virtually everywhere else in the world, in countries rich and poor, large and small. It is used in countries whose soccer traditions are as old as the sport itself, and others in which the sport is much newer than it is here.
None of that means that I think pro/rel is a magical cure-all for everything that needs to be improved in US Soccer. But it will makes us better, and there is a limit to how much we can improve without it. Trying to compete with that system using our current system is like fighting with one hand tied behind our backs.
The main losers in moving to an open system are those MLS owners who bought into a monopoly where they are insulated from competition, and want to keep it that way. I don't blame them, but I also don't care about them. I care about soccer in this country getting better.
Thanks for sharing your blog again Beau. Here's some more information for those interested"
https://prorelforusa.blogspot.com/2017/12/25-open-pyramid-myths-and-questions.html
http://blog.3four3.com/2015/09/14/pay-to-play-and-the-link-to-promotion-relegation/
Also non-wackos here: http://www.beinsports.com/us/soccer/video/the-future-of-u-s-soccer-promotionrelegation/823124
Thanks for posting this. There some great stuff on these blogs.
Anonymous
09/12/2018 12:10
Subject: USMNT
RantingSoccerDad wrote:Geez, another pro/rel discussion? OK, here we go again:
https://rantingsoccerdad.com/all-about-promotion-relegation/
In short -- it might be a good idea for taking U.S. soccer to the next level, but there are legitimate issues that even Riccardo Silva's Deloitte report pointed out, and the ideologues who are pushing it have surely set back the idea by a decade or more.
In the meantime -- I'm confused. Is Taylor Twellman the modern-day Ben Franklin?
No, Taylor is not Ben Franklin. However, he and Herc Gomez are among a handful of journalists that, on occasion, question the narrative of our soccer establishment. Sadly, most of soccer journalists serve as the establishment's lapdogs (Lalas, etc) in exchange for access, well compensated jobs and other perks. They don't do any serious sports journalism and simply rehash USSF/SUM/MLS narrative, attacking anyone who questions the establishment.
Anonymous
09/12/2018 11:24
Subject: USMNT
RantingSoccerDad wrote:Geez, another pro/rel discussion? OK, here we go again:
https://rantingsoccerdad.com/all-about-promotion-relegation/
In short -- it might be a good idea for taking U.S. soccer to the next level, but there are legitimate issues that even Riccardo Silva's Deloitte report pointed out, and the ideologues who are pushing it have surely set back the idea by a decade or more.
In the meantime -- I'm confused. Is Taylor Twellman the modern-day Ben Franklin?
I'll grant that there are some true jerks and wackos on twitter who tend to dominate the debate on whatever issue they are obsessed over.
The guy I quoted is not one of the wackos.
In short - the FIFA system (independent clubs competing in pro/rel system; transfer market ; training compensation to repay youth clubs for investments in players; solidarity payments to reward youth clubs for successful player development) - is vastly superior when it comes to incentivizing player development. That is not a hypothetical statement. We don't have to theorize about how such a system "might" work. It is the system in place virtually everywhere else in the world, in countries rich and poor, large and small. It is used in countries whose soccer traditions are as old as the sport itself, and others in which the sport is much newer than it is here.
None of that means that I think pro/rel is a magical cure-all for everything that needs to be improved in US Soccer. But it will makes us better, and there is a limit to how much we can improve without it. Trying to compete with that system using our current system is like fighting with one hand tied behind our backs.
The main losers in moving to an open system are those MLS owners who bought into a monopoly where they are insulated from competition, and want to keep it that way. I don't blame them, but I also don't care about them. I care about soccer in this country getting better.
Thanks for sharing your blog again Beau. Here's some more information for those interested"
https://prorelforusa.blogspot.com/2017/12/25-open-pyramid-myths-and-questions.html
http://blog.3four3.com/2015/09/14/pay-to-play-and-the-link-to-promotion-relegation/
Also non-wackos here: http://www.beinsports.com/us/soccer/video/the-future-of-u-s-soccer-promotionrelegation/823124
Anonymous
09/12/2018 10:12
Subject: USMNT
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Twellman was on fire before the US Mexico game. He said that the only way to justify waiting a year to hire the coach would be to hire a coach of Guardiola/Bielsa caliber. Waiting a year to hire an MLS coach is stupid and wasteful.
Bielsa would be the dream. It’s funny how people are just like “move to Europe.” A lot of us are from South American and Central American decent, and we also live here. We’re entitled to an opinion and to critique. If you can’t handle criticism, that’s what’s wrong. Pro/rel would be a start, both on the pro/semipro/amateur front as well as on the youth front. Developing a true soccer identity would another. We’d love to be included. Soccer’s one of the things we’re most passionate about.
It has nothing to do with handling criticism. I doubt anyone on here is part of US soccer management. Your "critiques" drone on regularly, that's what people react to.
How are you going to change the system from behind your anonymous keyboard on a DC Urban mom's website that is focused on parents learning options for their kids sports?
Please.....your main goal is to steer a bunch of people who have little knowledge or passion for soccer to and from various local options for their kids' extracurriculars. You and your small band of followers love making broad generalizations about every "American" option based on the failure of the men's national teams. Then you lump the women in, for good measure, despite their great results.
People have just as much a right to criticize your content, tone, and demeanor as you do to post your views, repeatedly. You can't expect to continue posting all negative all the time and not be challenged on it.
I am not the poster you are responding to but I share his or her opinion, and I have at other times also made posts in support of pro/rel, and critical of the US system.
I am part of no one's "band of followers."
There are many, many people who share these opinions, and that number is growing all the time. A big part of the reason for that is because of people using platforms like this, and twitter, and writing articles, to educate more and more people on how the system works in the rest of the world, how that differs from the way it works in this country, and why that makes a difference in how successful we are - or not - in developing players.
What better thread to talk about things like that then one titled "USMNT."
You will note that in responding to your post I did not attack you personally. Let's see if you can respond in kind.
In the meantime, here's a good article for those interested in understanding more: https://prorelforusa.blogspot.com/2018/08/guest-post-it-was-idea-id-never.html
Anonymous
09/12/2018 07:43
Subject: USMNT
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Twellman was on fire before the US Mexico game. He said that the only way to justify waiting a year to hire the coach would be to hire a coach of Guardiola/Bielsa caliber. Waiting a year to hire an MLS coach is stupid and wasteful.
Bielsa would be the dream. It’s funny how people are just like “move to Europe.” A lot of us are from South American and Central American decent, and we also live here. We’re entitled to an opinion and to critique. If you can’t handle criticism, that’s what’s wrong. Pro/rel would be a start, both on the pro/semipro/amateur front as well as on the youth front. Developing a true soccer identity would another. We’d love to be included. Soccer’s one of the things we’re most passionate about.
It has nothing to do with handling criticism. I doubt anyone on here is part of US soccer management. Your "critiques" drone on regularly, that's what people react to.
How are you going to change the system from behind your anonymous keyboard on a DC Urban mom's website that is focused on parents learning options for their kids sports?
Please.....your main goal is to steer a bunch of people who have little knowledge or passion for soccer to and from various local options for their kids' extracurriculars. You and your small band of followers love making broad generalizations about every "American" option based on the failure of the men's national teams. Then you lump the women in, for good measure, despite their great results.
People have just as much a right to criticize your content, tone, and demeanor as you do to post your views, repeatedly. You can't expect to continue posting all negative all the time and not be challenged on it.
Anonymous
09/11/2018 22:55
Subject: USMNT
Anonymous wrote:Twellman was on fire before the US Mexico game. He said that the only way to justify waiting a year to hire the coach would be to hire a coach of Guardiola/Bielsa caliber. Waiting a year to hire an MLS coach is stupid and wasteful.
Bielsa would be the dream. It’s funny how people are just like “move to Europe.” A lot of us are from South American and Central American decent, and we also live here. We’re entitled to an opinion and to critique. If you can’t handle criticism, that’s what’s wrong. Pro/rel would be a start, both on the pro/semipro/amateur front as well as on the youth front. Developing a true soccer identity would another. We’d love to be included. Soccer’s one of the things we’re most passionate about.
Anonymous
09/11/2018 22:39
Subject: Re:USMNT
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:^^ US soccer. Very few Clubs in the country teach any better.
Idiots leading the youth players.
That's not what I've seen at youth clubs. There are lots of knowledgable coaches out there. It's not a blanket of incompetence.
More general anti-US rhetoric on this site. Not surprising.
Yes, they know how to get money from gullible parents. As for developing world class players not so much.
One thing I know for certain. Until people stop tearing down everything there is, we cannot hope to see the path forward.
Yes, let keep the closed system in professional soccer, SUM kickbacks, Goldman Sach's types running our soccer federation, expensive pay-to-play system for youth soccer, coaches that failed to qualify for the world cup after failing to beat T&T's second team. We obviously have nothing to learn from other countries that won the world cups, produced countless world class players, have youth development system that is free for top level players. There's nothing to tear down here. We have a clear path forward, if we keep things the same.
“Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.”
– Benjamin Franklin
Ben Franklin blew up the system that did not work. Read the Declaration of Independence, which he signed.
The definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
That’s US Soccer for you. We even voted in the same crooks/idiots/establishment. Well, I mean “I” didn’t, but I didn’t get a vote.
Anonymous
09/11/2018 21:53
Subject: USMNT
Twellman was on fire before the US Mexico game. He said that the only way to justify waiting a year to hire the coach would be to hire a coach of Guardiola/Bielsa caliber. Waiting a year to hire an MLS coach is stupid and wasteful.
Anonymous
09/11/2018 21:45
Subject: Re:USMNT
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:^^ US soccer. Very few Clubs in the country teach any better.
Idiots leading the youth players.
That's not what I've seen at youth clubs. There are lots of knowledgable coaches out there. It's not a blanket of incompetence.
More general anti-US rhetoric on this site. Not surprising.
Yes, they know how to get money from gullible parents. As for developing world class players not so much.
One thing I know for certain. Until people stop tearing down everything there is, we cannot hope to see the path forward.
Yes, let keep the closed system in professional soccer, SUM kickbacks, Goldman Sach's types running our soccer federation, expensive pay-to-play system for youth soccer, coaches that failed to qualify for the world cup after failing to beat T&T's second team. We obviously have nothing to learn from other countries that won the world cups, produced countless world class players, have youth development system that is free for top level players. There's nothing to tear down here. We have a clear path forward, if we keep things the same.
“Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.”
– Benjamin Franklin
Ben Franklin blew up the system that did not work. Read the Declaration of Independence, which he signed.
Right, so he did not criticize without action. The point is that open criticism without action, achieves nothing and only fosters contempt. We have quite enough contempt.
If you have no solutions to offer, stifle.
The solution is to adopt the proven system that the rest of the soccer world successfully uses. It won't happen unless USSF/SUM/MLS feel enough pressure, including from the fans. Critique of things that are wrong, if not plain corrupt, will eventually lead to action. Staying silent only empowers the current soccer establishment.
Anonymous
09/11/2018 21:40
Subject: Re:USMNT
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:^^ US soccer. Very few Clubs in the country teach any better.
Idiots leading the youth players.
That's not what I've seen at youth clubs. There are lots of knowledgable coaches out there. It's not a blanket of incompetence.
More general anti-US rhetoric on this site. Not surprising.
Yes, they know how to get money from gullible parents. As for developing world class players not so much.
One thing I know for certain. Until people stop tearing down everything there is, we cannot hope to see the path forward.
Yes, let keep the closed system in professional soccer, SUM kickbacks, Goldman Sach's types running our soccer federation, expensive pay-to-play system for youth soccer, coaches that failed to qualify for the world cup after failing to beat T&T's second team. We obviously have nothing to learn from other countries that won the world cups, produced countless world class players, have youth development system that is free for top level players. There's nothing to tear down here. We have a clear path forward, if we keep things the same.
“Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.”
– Benjamin Franklin
Ben Franklin blew up the system that did not work. Read the Declaration of Independence, which he signed.
Right, so he did not criticize without action. The point is that open criticism without action, achieves nothing and only fosters contempt. We have quite enough contempt.
If you have no solutions to offer, stifle.
Anonymous
09/11/2018 21:26
Subject: Re:USMNT
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:^^ US soccer. Very few Clubs in the country teach any better.
Idiots leading the youth players.
That's not what I've seen at youth clubs. There are lots of knowledgable coaches out there. It's not a blanket of incompetence.
More general anti-US rhetoric on this site. Not surprising.
Yes, they know how to get money from gullible parents. As for developing world class players not so much.
One thing I know for certain. Until people stop tearing down everything there is, we cannot hope to see the path forward.
Yes, let keep the closed system in professional soccer, SUM kickbacks, Goldman Sach's types running our soccer federation, expensive pay-to-play system for youth soccer, coaches that failed to qualify for the world cup after failing to beat T&T's second team. We obviously have nothing to learn from other countries that won the world cups, produced countless world class players, have youth development system that is free for top level players. There's nothing to tear down here. We have a clear path forward, if we keep things the same.
“Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.”
– Benjamin Franklin
Ben Franklin blew up the system that did not work. Read the Declaration of Independence, which he signed.