Anonymous wrote:^^ There are definitely meaningless BAs. For example:

Modern Dance BA

Nope, not meaningless in my book. 1) Art forms require physical and mental discipline and dance interpersonal ones. Modern dance has an important 100 year history in multiple countries. 2) BA grads of all majors typically take a suite of other classes (otherwise it would be a BFA--which can also be a viable degree). Modern dance grads--like all BA grads-- will go on to a range of assorted middle class office jobs that require a degree--really the same ones like communications majors, marketing majors, psychology majors and the like--or they may work in arts management. Majors aren't as important as completing the degree. Sure, they aren't on average going to get the same salaries as econ or engineering majors, but they'd generally be better off than getting just dance training without the BA--unless they are performing at a professional level young (then they can wait until they are older to do the BA). And if they are happy and engaged studying dance they will likely find more career opportunities than if they are pissed off and confused studying plumbing or accounting. Sure, if it's my kid I'd encourage them to double-major in a more career-based option too (computer science/robotics and dance are actually a great combo--check out work at MIT media lab).

^^ There are definitely meaningless BAs. For example:

Modern Dance BA

Anonymous wrote:To the pp asking about plumbing school---I think it's smarter to send a kid who is non-academic to a trade school than saddle them with 200K+ debt for a meaningless BA from unknown U.

Different story if undergrad is not an issue cost wise.

Getting B's in math in a competitive hs is not the same as being non-academic. And it's highly, highly unlikely that one graduates with a B.A. with 200K+ debt (vet school, sure...). The average undergraduate student loan debt is somewhere between 17k-31k for the total 4 years (depending on how you look at the numbers). And trade schools/licensing processes create their own debt loads also. A BA is a gateway to a lot of professional jobs--its not meaningless at all. The data still strongly favor that ANY BA (except from a for profit institution) has a significant net positive impact on life time earning potential. Now if a kid wants to be a plumber, that's great. I have nothing against trade school, but the idea of a "meaningless BA" is pretty much a myth. The BA gives you access to a whole lot of 30-50k entry level jobs regardless of your major or quality of school--most with some health and retirement benefits. Just look at the post-college employment rates for pretty much any university.

To the pp asking about plumbing school---I think it's smarter to send a kid who is non-academic to a trade school than saddle them with 200K+ debt for a meaningless BA from unknown U.

Different story if undergrad is not an issue cost wise.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:JFC what are we supposed to do? NP here and my incoming freshman kid is a pretty solid B math student with tutoring. And not advanced classes. I know the selective college thing is tough but I didn't think he would literally have zero chance from the get-go unless he has As in advanced math. Do we just give up and send him to plumbing school?

No but top 50 is out of the question

Probably 100

One can get a great education that also yields a solid professional career at one of the top 100 liberal arts colleges, the top 200 or so national universities, and the upper end of regional colleges in your area. Don't fall into the highly selective college or bust trap. Better to focus your energies on helping your kid navigate the world, know themselves, and be an active, engaged student at whatever college they attend. Sometimes being a strong, motivated student at a less selective college can yield better outcomes--personally, professionally, academically--than being the weakest or average in highly selective.

Anonymous wrote:JFC what are we supposed to do? NP here and my incoming freshman kid is a pretty solid B math student with tutoring. And not advanced classes. I know the selective college thing is tough but I didn't think he would literally have zero chance from the get-go unless he has As in advanced math. Do we just give up and send him to plumbing school?

No but top 50 is out of the question

Probably 100

Anonymous wrote:All these posters saying “I was terrible at math but still got into Yale” are kidding themselves if they think things are the same now. They are definitely not and unless your kid is in the highest or AP math course at school they aren’t getting into Yale or Northwestern or even places like Williams or Bowdoin.

+1

Anonymous wrote:OP here- I guess I mean Top 50 or so.

Are any of these schools possible?

UVA, UNC, Vanderbilt, Carnegie Mellon, etc?

Hahaha no
Are you insane?

Probably not

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is tough in the DMV where so many kids are done with AP Calculus in 11th grade. My kid is on the lowest Math track in a Science and math magnet and won’t finish Calculus until 12th grade So his college application won’t have an AP calculus exam result (most kids in his program self study for AP calc BC in 11th grade). There is little we can do about this. My hope is that getting As in all math classes and hopefully scoring low to mid 700s in SAT math and mid to high 700s in SAT reading will compensate for not being on the highest/most rigorous math track offered in his program . It might shut him out of some of his college picks but in the long run I hope he will benefit from learning Math at a slower pace and under less pressure. It should not be a race especially for such a foundational subject

I think, based on personal experience, is that even kids who find math easy, but end with Calculus AB in high school for whatever reason (that's all my school offered, back in the day) should go into any math-based major at a selective college thinking of themselves as learning disabled in math till proven otherwise. They should retake the last high school math course at the college level, go to every lecture and live in the TAs' offices until they know for sure they're on track in math, or they ought to be prepared to slide into some other major. The problem is that so many other kids have gone a year past Calculus BC and are going back and taking the equivalent of Calculus BC, or even calculus AB, so, they're a bunch of ringers. A regular good kid starts out two or three years behind.

You know that in reality everything isn’t all sunshine and roses for everyone else, right? Some of those high schoolers who took graduated having taken Calculus Iii or whatever had crappy teachers and/or a crappy curriculum and they might not really have as great a math education as you think. Some of the top private schools aren’t allowing students to place out of many or any college classes at all these days. My daughter is having to retake some of the classes she could have placed out of at other schools because her school likes to be absolutely certain that she learned the material thoroughly in a rigorous class. If you are missing some pieces in your math education it can really affect your understanding and achievement in higher level classes.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is tough in the DMV where so many kids are done with AP Calculus in 11th grade. My kid is on the lowest Math track in a Science and math magnet and won’t finish Calculus until 12th grade So his college application won’t have an AP calculus exam result (most kids in his program self study for AP calc BC in 11th grade). There is little we can do about this. My hope is that getting As in all math classes and hopefully scoring low to mid 700s in SAT math and mid to high 700s in SAT reading will compensate for not being on the highest/most rigorous math track offered in his program . It might shut him out of some of his college picks but in the long run I hope he will benefit from learning Math at a slower pace and under less pressure. It should not be a race especially for such a foundational subject

I think, based on personal experience, is that even kids who find math easy, but end with Calculus AB in high school for whatever reason (that's all my school offered, back in the day) should go into any math-based major at a selective college thinking of themselves as learning disabled in math till proven otherwise. They should retake the last high school math course at the college level, go to every lecture and live in the TAs' offices until they know for sure they're on track in math, or they ought to be prepared to slide into some other major. The problem is that so many other kids have gone a year past Calculus BC and are going back and taking the equivalent of Calculus BC, or even calculus AB, so, they're a bunch of ringers. A regular good kid starts out two or three years behind.

This is so true. I skipped my senior year of high school (long story), so I didn't get to take Calculus. When I took it in college, it was review for everyone else in the class. They were complaining about the pace being too slow, and I was completely lost.

I am terrible at school math. C in Algebra, D in Geometry, C in preCalc, also bad Science, Accounting, Computers anything with calculations.

Went to good college and grad school and ironically my career is Finance and Audit. I am very good real world math.

I would not worry. geometry and Calculus are of no use once school is done

I went to a top 100 school. 97 Baby!!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's way too early to think of where she should go to college! She needs to do her best in high school first. Excel at what she has in front of her and revisit the question in 3 years. An outstanding humanities/social science student can be more attractive to elite colleges than another "average excellent" STEM applicant. Schools do want to see 4 years of math and sciences though, but AP calculus is not a requirement anywhere unless you say you want to be a science or engineering major.

FWIW, the math and science classes were a drudge for my DC. DC topped out with AP bio and AP stats. But, DC was in another league in the preferred subjects, had raves from teachers, and demonstrated serious leadership beyond school. The college counselor was extremely confident that DC would get admitted to any of the reaches on the list in the early round.

Math is really overrated, seriously. I got C in math in HS and college but now I am working in information security and I have people who majored math and engineering from Stanford and CMU report to me. The only math I need to know is binary math.

You don't need to read any books and you can be the president of the united states (someone like that just did it), and you will have the whole executive branch giverment report to you. That does mot mean that's wise.

That's not what I meant to say at all. You can do poorly in math and still can go to Stanford if you do well in other things. Life on earth do not involve solely on math. While Elon Musk was probably good in math, I seriously doubt that anne akiko meyers (famous violinist) was as good in math as Elon Musk. If one is not good in math, there is a high probability that he or she will struggle with engineering majors but not with Information Technology. Having good in math has nothing with his or her ability to manage other engineers or scientists. That's my point.

Anonymous wrote:It is tough in the DMV where so many kids are done with AP Calculus in 11th grade. My kid is on the lowest Math track in a Science and math magnet and won’t finish Calculus until 12th grade So his college application won’t have an AP calculus exam result (most kids in his program self study for AP calc BC in 11th grade). There is little we can do about this. My hope is that getting As in all math classes and hopefully scoring low to mid 700s in SAT math and mid to high 700s in SAT reading will compensate for not being on the highest/most rigorous math track offered in his program . It might shut him out of some of his college picks but in the long run I hope he will benefit from learning Math at a slower pace and under less pressure. It should not be a race especially for such a foundational subject

I think, based on personal experience, is that even kids who find math easy, but end with Calculus AB in high school for whatever reason (that's all my school offered, back in the day) should go into any math-based major at a selective college thinking of themselves as learning disabled in math till proven otherwise. They should retake the last high school math course at the college level, go to every lecture and live in the TAs' offices until they know for sure they're on track in math, or they ought to be prepared to slide into some other major. The problem is that so many other kids have gone a year past Calculus BC and are going back and taking the equivalent of Calculus BC, or even calculus AB, so, they're a bunch of ringers. A regular good kid starts out two or three years behind.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is tough in the DMV where so many kids are done with AP Calculus in 11th grade. My kid is on the lowest Math track in a Science and math magnet and won’t finish Calculus until 12th grade So his college application won’t have an AP calculus exam result (most kids in his program self study for AP calc BC in 11th grade). There is little we can do about this. My hope is that getting As in all math classes and hopefully scoring low to mid 700s in SAT math and mid to high 700s in SAT reading will compensate for not being on the highest/most rigorous math track offered in his program . It might shut him out of some of his college picks but in the long run I hope he will benefit from learning Math at a slower pace and under less pressure. It should not be a race especially for such a foundational subject

This track is just fine. The public school kids seem to be on this track, but the private school kids often are not and they get into great schools.

Thanks