Anonymous wrote:A school can be better than one in inner-city Chicago and still far below the expectations or aspirations of many in this area.

Anyway, enough with the excuses. You obviously have a horse in this race. Move to the Lee district from your “good” district and let us know how it goes.

Different poster. I have students at Lee. This year Lee graduates are attending UVA, William & Mary, VCU, James Madison, Virginia Tech, George Mason, Drexel, Texas A&M, UNC-Chapel Hill, BYU, Barnard, the University of Richmond, Loyola-Chicago, and the University of Chicago (as examples). I think things are going quite well for these students.

A school can be better than one in inner-city Chicago and still far below the expectations or aspirations of many in this area.

Anyway, enough with the excuses. You obviously have a horse in this race. Move to the Lee district from your “good” district and let us know how it goes.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I came up with a meta ranking, based on a composite of SAT scores, Great Schools, US News, School Digger, and the Washington Post Challenge Index. The top 10 are:

TJ
McLean
Langley
George Mason
Oakton
Yorktown
Woodson
West Springfield
Robinson
Madison

(followed by Marshall, Lake Braddock, Chantilly, and W-L).

And for those who want to see the correlation with FARMS:

TJ - 1.8%
McLean - 8.7%
Langley - 1.8%
George Mason - 8.5%
Oakton - 12.8%
Yorktown - 14.6%
Woodson - 11.7%
West Springfield - 12.9%
Robinson - 10.7%
Madison - 10.4%
Marshall - 17.7%
Lake Braddock - 16.3%
Chantilly - 16.9%
W-L - 34.2%

Right. I hope no one is delusional enough to think there’s anything inherently good about these schools. You take the kids from Langley and stick them in Mount Vernon and Mount Vernon goes from the worst school to the best school, and vice versa. It’s all about the student and the family they come from. The actual schools don’t make a difference.

Yes, the students, teachers, and surrounding communities make a bigger difference than buildings. Few would suggest otherwise, although better physical plants may contribute at the margins to selecting a neighborhood.

Right, I’m including the teachers, staff, etc., not just the buildings. The teachers at Stuart aren’t any better or worse than the ones at Langley. They all work for FCPS and follow the same curriculum. There are good teachers, counselors, etc. as well as bad ones at every school and they all come and go. So what I meant is that if you literally took the kids from Langley and put them in Stuart with the Stuart teachers, staff, surrounding community, Stuart would become a top ten school.

That’s a hypothesis with a lot of assumptions, some clearly incorrect. Neither the curriculum nor the pace at which it is followed is uniform among NoVa high schools. Nor is teacher recruitment, satisfaction, or retention. It seems that perhaps all you really want to establish is that there are some good teachers and administrators in lower-rated schools, and again few would dispute that.

I agree that teacher satisfaction, etc. are not the same at every school. For example, the admin plays a huge part in that. My point is that the teachers at the top performing schools aren’t superior to the teachers at lower performing schools. Do you disagree?

What makes a school high performing isn’t how good the teachers are, it’s the number of students who attend that school who would thrive in just about any school because of their family background. A kid who’s going to get a 1500 SAT at a top school isn’t going to get a much lower score if they attended a lower ranked school.

Teachers at higher-performing schools are generally less stressed, less likely to be constantly monitored to make sure their students are on track to pass the SOLs, and able to teach at an accelerated pace. Students are also more likely to do well on SATs and other standardized tests if they’ve been in an environment for years where most of their peers are strong academically, and the teachers can teach at a faster clip and with fewer distractions. Of course, there are some teachers who get more satisfaction from teaching kids who come from less privileged backgrounds, and some are quite vocal about it, but in the aggregate they’ll burn out sooner.

You may disagree, but the bulk of the evidence seems to support this view. If you were right, you’d see more parents trying to game the system by moving to neighborhoods zoned for schools like Lee so their kids could “do just as well,” yet stand out more. That very rarely happens, as much as you might prefer otherwise.

Are you familiar with teaching in FCPS? I’m not asking to be snarky but as a genuine question. Teachers at high performing schools are stressed out by constant demands from helicoptor parents who want private school attention from a public school teacher. That’s the flip side to parents who invest a lot in their kids’ schooling and have the time to do so. Teachers at wealthy schools face pressure that goes beyond just passing SOLs. And let’s be honest. Even the lowest performing schools in FCPS isn’t like teaching in inner city Chicago. Is there evidence that teacher turnover at high performing schools are noticeably lower? I’m not aware of any.

There are a lot of factors that go into choosing a home. People generally choose to live around people that are “like them.” A wealthy family is much more likely to live in McLean district than Lee district for example, even if they send their kids to private school. I do agree that perceived school quality plays a big role in real estate prices, of course. But a lot of that is a self-fulfilling prophesy. And some of it is just parents who mean well doing as much as they can, even if there’s no evidence of it making much of a didference, which also keeps after school tutoring for elementary school kids in business.

I really don’t have a horse in the race. I live in a “good” school district because it works well for our commutes.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I came up with a meta ranking, based on a composite of SAT scores, Great Schools, US News, School Digger, and the Washington Post Challenge Index. The top 10 are:

TJ
McLean
Langley
George Mason
Oakton
Yorktown
Woodson
West Springfield
Robinson
Madison

(followed by Marshall, Lake Braddock, Chantilly, and W-L).

And for those who want to see the correlation with FARMS:

TJ - 1.8%
McLean - 8.7%
Langley - 1.8%
George Mason - 8.5%
Oakton - 12.8%
Yorktown - 14.6%
Woodson - 11.7%
West Springfield - 12.9%
Robinson - 10.7%
Madison - 10.4%
Marshall - 17.7%
Lake Braddock - 16.3%
Chantilly - 16.9%
W-L - 34.2%

Right. I hope no one is delusional enough to think there’s anything inherently good about these schools. You take the kids from Langley and stick them in Mount Vernon and Mount Vernon goes from the worst school to the best school, and vice versa. It’s all about the student and the family they come from. The actual schools don’t make a difference.

Yes, the students, teachers, and surrounding communities make a bigger difference than buildings. Few would suggest otherwise, although better physical plants may contribute at the margins to selecting a neighborhood.

Right, I’m including the teachers, staff, etc., not just the buildings. The teachers at Stuart aren’t any better or worse than the ones at Langley. They all work for FCPS and follow the same curriculum. There are good teachers, counselors, etc. as well as bad ones at every school and they all come and go. So what I meant is that if you literally took the kids from Langley and put them in Stuart with the Stuart teachers, staff, surrounding community, Stuart would become a top ten school.

That’s a hypothesis with a lot of assumptions, some clearly incorrect. Neither the curriculum nor the pace at which it is followed is uniform among NoVa high schools. Nor is teacher recruitment, satisfaction, or retention. It seems that perhaps all you really want to establish is that there are some good teachers and administrators in lower-rated schools, and again few would dispute that.

I agree that teacher satisfaction, etc. are not the same at every school. For example, the admin plays a huge part in that. My point is that the teachers at the top performing schools aren’t superior to the teachers at lower performing schools. Do you disagree?

What makes a school high performing isn’t how good the teachers are, it’s the number of students who attend that school who would thrive in just about any school because of their family background. A kid who’s going to get a 1500 SAT at a top school isn’t going to get a much lower score if they attended a lower ranked school.

Teachers at higher-performing schools are generally less stressed, less likely to be constantly monitored to make sure their students are on track to pass the SOLs, and able to teach at an accelerated pace. Students are also more likely to do well on SATs and other standardized tests if they’ve been in an environment for years where most of their peers are strong academically, and the teachers can teach at a faster clip and with fewer distractions. Of course, there are some teachers who get more satisfaction from teaching kids who come from less privileged backgrounds, and some are quite vocal about it, but in the aggregate they’ll burn out sooner.

You may disagree, but the bulk of the evidence seems to support this view. If you were right, you’d see more parents trying to game the system by moving to neighborhoods zoned for schools like Lee so their kids could “do just as well,” yet stand out more. That very rarely happens, as much as you might prefer otherwise.

Anonymous wrote:I came up with a meta ranking, based on a composite of SAT scores, Great Schools, US News, School Digger, and the Washington Post Challenge Index. The top 10 are:

TJ
McLean
Langley
George Mason
Oakton
Yorktown
Woodson
West Springfield
Robinson
Madison

(followed by Marshall, Lake Braddock, Chantilly, and W-L).

Care to share your algorithm/weightings?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I came up with a meta ranking, based on a composite of SAT scores, Great Schools, US News, School Digger, and the Washington Post Challenge Index. The top 10 are:

TJ
McLean
Langley
George Mason
Oakton
Yorktown
Woodson
West Springfield
Robinson
Madison

(followed by Marshall, Lake Braddock, Chantilly, and W-L).

And for those who want to see the correlation with FARMS:

TJ - 1.8%
McLean - 8.7%
Langley - 1.8%
George Mason - 8.5%
Oakton - 12.8%
Yorktown - 14.6%
Woodson - 11.7%
West Springfield - 12.9%
Robinson - 10.7%
Madison - 10.4%
Marshall - 17.7%
Lake Braddock - 16.3%
Chantilly - 16.9%
W-L - 34.2%

Right. I hope no one is delusional enough to think there’s anything inherently good about these schools. You take the kids from Langley and stick them in Mount Vernon and Mount Vernon goes from the worst school to the best school, and vice versa. It’s all about the student and the family they come from. The actual schools don’t make a difference.

Yes, the students, teachers, and surrounding communities make a bigger difference than buildings. Few would suggest otherwise, although better physical plants may contribute at the margins to selecting a neighborhood.

Right, I’m including the teachers, staff, etc., not just the buildings. The teachers at Stuart aren’t any better or worse than the ones at Langley. They all work for FCPS and follow the same curriculum. There are good teachers, counselors, etc. as well as bad ones at every school and they all come and go. So what I meant is that if you literally took the kids from Langley and put them in Stuart with the Stuart teachers, staff, surrounding community, Stuart would become a top ten school.

That’s a hypothesis with a lot of assumptions, some clearly incorrect. Neither the curriculum nor the pace at which it is followed is uniform among NoVa high schools. Nor is teacher recruitment, satisfaction, or retention. It seems that perhaps all you really want to establish is that there are some good teachers and administrators in lower-rated schools, and again few would dispute that.

I agree that teacher satisfaction, etc. are not the same at every school. For example, the admin plays a huge part in that. My point is that the teachers at the top performing schools aren’t superior to the teachers at lower performing schools. Do you disagree?

What makes a school high performing isn’t how good the teachers are, it’s the number of students who attend that school who would thrive in just about any school because of their family background. A kid who’s going to get a 1500 SAT at a top school isn’t going to get a much lower score if they attended a lower ranked school.

Anonymous wrote:And here are the F/R lunch rates for some of the schools that didn't make the 'list':

Annandale 61.3% (56.6%)
Edison 38.6% (35.6%)
Hayfield 30.5% (30.0%)
Falls Church 56.0% (52.5%)
Herndon 43.4% (39.6%)
Justice 67.0% (60.9%)
Lee 57.9% (55.4%)
Mt. Vernon 55.3% (55.5%)
South Lakes 30.1% (29.7%)
Wakefield 49.2% (38.8%)
West Potomac 43.1% (40.5%)

Can you see how things are stacked against these schools? Five of them have rates greater than 50%. Some are still getting poorer as no one with 'means' will go anywhere near them. These same schools also tend to have more English language learners. Northern Virginia has segregated itself.

For comparability purposes, added the VDOE FARMS numbers (source of information for the other schools) for the schools above.

Anonymous wrote:And here are the F/R lunch rates for some of the schools that didn't make the 'list':

Annandale 61.3%
Edison 38.6%
Hayfield 30.5%
Falls Church 56.0%
Herndon 43.4%
Justice 67.0%
Lee 57.9%
Mt. Vernon 55.3%
South Lakes 30.1%
Wakefield 49.2%
West Potomac 43.1%

Can you see how things are stacked against these schools? Five of them have rates greater than 50%. Some are still getting poorer as no one with 'means' will go anywhere near them. These same schools also tend to have more English language learners. Northern Virginia has segregated itself.

You can't paint all those schools with the same brush. Some have declining FARMS rates. Others have growing numbers of students from families of "means," but increasing FARMS rates because the low-income population is growing faster. Still others have declining numbers of students from families of "means" and increasing FARMS rates. What they have in common is that they aren't among the 10-15 schools in NoVa best known for their overall academic achievement.

The SES differences in NoVa mirror those in many other areas. It is greater in suburban Maryland (both Montgomery vs. PG, and within Montgomery). APS might be able to switch to a county-wide lottery system like Jefferson County, Kentucky, due to its small size, although it would be met with protests from people claiming they bought in Arlington so their kids could walk to the schools. If FCPS tried, there would be significant flight to Loudoun and private schools.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I came up with a meta ranking, based on a composite of SAT scores, Great Schools, US News, School Digger, and the Washington Post Challenge Index. The top 10 are:

TJ
McLean
Langley
George Mason
Oakton
Yorktown
Woodson
West Springfield
Robinson
Madison

(followed by Marshall, Lake Braddock, Chantilly, and W-L).

And for those who want to see the correlation with FARMS:

TJ - 1.8%
McLean - 8.7%
Langley - 1.8%
George Mason - 8.5%
Oakton - 12.8%
Yorktown - 14.6%
Woodson - 11.7%
West Springfield - 12.9%
Robinson - 10.7%
Madison - 10.4%
Marshall - 17.7%
Lake Braddock - 16.3%
Chantilly - 16.9%
W-L - 34.2%

Right. I hope no one is delusional enough to think there’s anything inherently good about these schools. You take the kids from Langley and stick them in Mount Vernon and Mount Vernon goes from the worst school to the best school, and vice versa. It’s all about the student and the family they come from. The actual schools don’t make a difference.

Yes, the students, teachers, and surrounding communities make a bigger difference than buildings. Few would suggest otherwise, although better physical plants may contribute at the margins to selecting a neighborhood.

Right, I’m including the teachers, staff, etc., not just the buildings. The teachers at Stuart aren’t any better or worse than the ones at Langley. They all work for FCPS and follow the same curriculum. There are good teachers, counselors, etc. as well as bad ones at every school and they all come and go. So what I meant is that if you literally took the kids from Langley and put them in Stuart with the Stuart teachers, staff, surrounding community, Stuart would become a top ten school.

That’s a hypothesis with a lot of assumptions, some clearly incorrect. Neither the curriculum nor the pace at which it is followed is uniform among NoVa high schools. Nor is teacher recruitment, satisfaction, or retention. It seems that perhaps all you really want to establish is that there are some good teachers and administrators in lower-rated schools, and again few would dispute that.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I came up with a meta ranking, based on a composite of SAT scores, Great Schools, US News, School Digger, and the Washington Post Challenge Index. The top 10 are:

TJ
McLean
Langley
George Mason
Oakton
Yorktown
Woodson
West Springfield
Robinson
Madison

(followed by Marshall, Lake Braddock, Chantilly, and W-L).

And for those who want to see the correlation with FARMS:

TJ - 1.8%
McLean - 8.7%
Langley - 1.8%
George Mason - 8.5%
Oakton - 12.8%
Yorktown - 14.6%
Woodson - 11.7%
West Springfield - 12.9%
Robinson - 10.7%
Madison - 10.4%
Marshall - 17.7%
Lake Braddock - 16.3%
Chantilly - 16.9%
W-L - 34.2%

Right. I hope no one is delusional enough to think there’s anything inherently good about these schools. You take the kids from Langley and stick them in Mount Vernon and Mount Vernon goes from the worst school to the best school, and vice versa. It’s all about the student and the family they come from. The actual schools don’t make a difference.

Yes, the students, teachers, and surrounding communities make a bigger difference than buildings. Few would suggest otherwise, although better physical plants may contribute at the margins to selecting a neighborhood.

Right, I’m including the teachers, staff, etc., not just the buildings. The teachers at Stuart aren’t any better or worse than the ones at Langley. They all work for FCPS and follow the same curriculum. There are good teachers, counselors, etc. as well as bad ones at every school and they all come and go. So what I meant is that if you literally took the kids from Langley and put them in Stuart with the Stuart teachers, staff, surrounding community, Stuart would become a top ten school.

New poster here.

You are failing at logic and too caught up on the names of the schools.

And here are the F/R lunch rates for some of the schools that didn't make the 'list':

Annandale 61.3%
Edison 38.6%
Hayfield 30.5%
Falls Church 56.0%
Herndon 43.4%
Justice 67.0%
Lee 57.9%
Mt. Vernon 55.3%
South Lakes 30.1%
Wakefield 49.2%
West Potomac 43.1%

Can you see how things are stacked against these schools? Five of them have rates greater than 50%. Some are still getting poorer as no one with 'means' will go anywhere near them. These same schools also tend to have more English language learners. Northern Virginia has segregated itself.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I came up with a meta ranking, based on a composite of SAT scores, Great Schools, US News, School Digger, and the Washington Post Challenge Index. The top 10 are:

TJ
McLean
Langley
George Mason
Oakton
Yorktown
Woodson
West Springfield
Robinson
Madison

(followed by Marshall, Lake Braddock, Chantilly, and W-L).

And for those who want to see the correlation with FARMS:

TJ - 1.8%
McLean - 8.7%
Langley - 1.8%
George Mason - 8.5%
Oakton - 12.8%
Yorktown - 14.6%
Woodson - 11.7%
West Springfield - 12.9%
Robinson - 10.7%
Madison - 10.4%
Marshall - 17.7%
Lake Braddock - 16.3%
Chantilly - 16.9%
W-L - 34.2%

Right. I hope no one is delusional enough to think there’s anything inherently good about these schools. You take the kids from Langley and stick them in Mount Vernon and Mount Vernon goes from the worst school to the best school, and vice versa. It’s all about the student and the family they come from. The actual schools don’t make a difference.

Yes, the students, teachers, and surrounding communities make a bigger difference than buildings. Few would suggest otherwise, although better physical plants may contribute at the margins to selecting a neighborhood.

Right, I’m including the teachers, staff, etc., not just the buildings. The teachers at Stuart aren’t any better or worse than the ones at Langley. They all work for FCPS and follow the same curriculum. There are good teachers, counselors, etc. as well as bad ones at every school and they all come and go. So what I meant is that if you literally took the kids from Langley and put them in Stuart with the Stuart teachers, staff, surrounding community, Stuart would become a top ten school.

IB schools?

UGG those numbers got all squished up when I submitted.

The first is the pass rate on all AP tests taken in 2017.

The second is the total number of AP tests taken.

The third is the number of 11th and 12th graders in 2017.

The last number is the "per capita" rate of AP tests taken per number of 11th and 12th graders.

Good schools:

Based on pass rate for all AP tests (standardized national curriculum of challenging coursework) taken 2017:

Based on the number/rate of advanced (AP) courses taken per student (reflecting how academically challenged the students are as a whole -- i.e. the academic culture of the school).

Passrate Total tests # of 11th + Rate of
taken 12th grdrs tests/std

TJ 97.4% 3888 874 4.448
Langley 87.3% 2485 957 2.596
McLean 85.4% 2334 941 2.480
Woodson 79.3% 1987 1109 1.791
Chantilly 78% 2537 1199 2.115
Madison 76.2% 2518 986 2.553
LBSS 72.9% 2701 1317 2.050
Oakton 71.7% 3381 1124 3.008

Fairfax 68.5% 2002 1060 1.888
S.County 68.4% 1477 1013 1.458
W.Sprgfd 68.2% 1878 1025 1.832
Herndon 66.3% 1622 992 1.635
Westfield 65% 2286 1148 1.991
Falls Ch 63.1% 891 785 1.135
Centreville 62.9% 2461 1108 2.221

W. Potomac 59% 1646 1117 1.473
Hayfield 56.8% 1337 881 1.517

A school might have a high passrate, but a lower participation rate -- which could mean that relatively few students take the harder courses, but they do well. And vice versa. A school could have a high number of tests per student, but have a low passrate b/c more kids are trying AP classes, even if they aren't fully successful.


yes... I have too much time on my hands.