Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not jealous. I never understand this reaction. We’re not jealous, we think you are subservient to the male patriarchy and holding women back from upwards mobility and independence.

Oh, and I’m not fat either. Even if I was, it’s funny you think I’m angry and fat in order to not really admire at all women whom uphold traditional gender stereotypes.

I’m not letting it go. You represent second class citizens happy to be subservient to men’s ambitions and dreams. You’re asolutely pathetic as role models to young women.

Girl, that was an angry post, whether you want to admit it or not. You need to learn to respect other women's choices.

I don’t respect most women who choose to SAH. Many WAHM don’t. We don’t talk about it openly. We pretend, but it’s there. It’s the divide amongst women. Those of us driving gender equality in the workplace don’t for a minute understand your choice. You, SAH, you think we’d all choose your path in life if only we landed a rich husband.

You, who decimated the ambition of your youth to kowtow to a man’s ambition. No, you don’t deserve my respect as someone championing forward better choices for women. You exude privledge living a social lobotomy of your former self.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
This is all fine, but I don't think these are representative of UMC families and gender dynamics.

I am highly-educated (PhD), grew up UMC, and am currently UMC. Most of my friends are similar, though not all of them grew up UMC. I would say that the vast majority of us are in dual-income households where the woman takes care of the majority of the traditionally female responsibilities (kids, cleaning, etc) and has also made decisions to limit or slow career advancement in order to support those responsibilities. I can't speak to the reasons for everyone I know, but I can speak to my own. There are some idiosyncracies around finding jobs in the same place for DH and I, which resulted in us ending up in a location that was best for DH's career. My observation is that somehow or another, most of my friends up in a similar situation (location based on DH's career). Because of the geographic transition, DH was out-earning me when we had kids. I have had a couple of opportunities for much higher-paying, more demanding jobs, and I ultimately turned them down. My reasoning was that: 1) we could not both have extremely demanding travel and work schedules, 2) I was not confident that DH would step down as much as needed in his career, 3) I wasn't willing to take that risk with small babies, and 4) truth-be-told my career isn't the most important thing to me. It's not for DH either, but he's not shown himself willing to sacrifice any aspect of it. Details for others' are different, but pretty similar. Unlike some of my friends, I think DH is perfectly capable of handling the home front. I'm just not confident that he will; and I value being able to make some of those day-to-day decisions (esp. since one of my kids has delays). Some of my friends don't even think their DH's could handle the homefront...

I'm doing just fine in my career (Director at a company with very few of them, primarily WAH, ~$250K salary)...but I could be doing much better. I've taken on traditionally feminine responsibilities both by choice and by necessity.

How much does your DH earn. Is it a similar amount?

Anonymous wrote:Actually some anthropologists have written about this. Wealthier men prefer more feminine women. Men who struggle prefer women who can take care of themselves.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not jealous. I never understand this reaction. We’re not jealous, we think you are subservient to the male patriarchy and holding women back from upwards mobility and independence.

Oh, and I’m not fat either. Even if I was, it’s funny you think I’m angry and fat in order to not really admire at all women whom uphold traditional gender stereotypes.

I’m not letting it go. You represent second class citizens happy to be subservient to men’s ambitions and dreams. You’re asolutely pathetic as role models to young women.

Girl, that was an angry post, whether you want to admit it or not. You need to learn to respect other women's choices.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I do see this phenomenon. At our local public school there are nearly as many dads at dropoff and pickup as moms, there are lots of dads on the PTA, lots of dads coaching sports and running carpool. At our local private there are no dads evident anywhere except evening events like the auction. Wealthy families seem more likely, in my experience car, to have a single income-earner -- nearly always the dad.

My experience is that this is because the really high-paying jobs demand pretty much all of your energy and attention. Two professionals can do extremely well, both with low six-figure jobs and shared domestic responsibilities. High six-figure jobs and seven-figure jobs almost always require so much time that it's really hard to have two of them in the same household. Gender norms, salary discrimination, and the biological realities of pregnancy make it much more likely that couples who started out with 2 careers will "choose" to prioritize the man's career. I also wonder if having grown up being told we can "have it all" makes us more attuned to what we'd be missing on the family side of things if we took the demanding jobs.

+1

This: “High six-figure jobs and seven-figure jobs almost always require so much time that it's really hard to have two of them in the same household.”

Anonymous wrote:I have noticed this too actually.

In my UMC/UC neighborhood and social circle, the more money the husband makes, the more likely it is to hat the wife doesn’t go back to work after baby #2.

And these are women with elite degrees and professional jobs (lots of lawyers quit).

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I see two different trends.

On the one hand, a lot of UMC families I know have dual high wage incomes and these relationships are not absolutely not gender typical. In one, he does almost all the cooking and both he and she are light on cleaning and laundry as they have an au pair and weekly housekeeping. In another family, she travels a lot, he has a government job and does more kid pick ups/kid sick days, and they eat out a lot. In a third, she works a lot, he works a lot, they have a nanny, they have a food service (which she says saved their marriage) and their house is a wreck, so even though they have weekly housekeeping, I'm not sure either of them is spending time "picking up." She has told me he does a lot more laundry than she does (mostly because she admits with a laugh that he breaks down sooner than she does), but I've seen her do the yard work...

On the other hand, I know an equal number of UMC families with very gender typical division of labor with high paid executive men whose careers have been furthered by SAH wives who are socially graceful and helping their husbands work a million hours a week by doing all the kid/house duties. In one of these families, he makes several million a year and she is a bombshell, has a personal trainer and a personal shopper, their house is gorgeous (they do have a housekeeper, yard service, and a dogwalker) and she does 100% of the kid and home duties. In another family, he is a high powered lobbyist. She is really fun outgoing, goes to manicurist once a week, goes to hairdresser before each "do" (and they seem like they have 2-3 of them a week), she does all the cooking and shopping (they throw a do about once a week), and they have a nanny who does most of the kid duty. She plays a lot of tennis at a fancy country club. In a third family, she is a SAH mom, he travels a lot for some job in international finance, and I would not be surprised if he truly does not even know how to drive a car (he takes a company car to the airport, etc.) or do anything for himself. She maintains their calendar and he has a personal admin who reminds him about all his work stuff. She told me once that he phones his admin with her birthday/anniversary present lists...!

This is all fine, but I don't think these are representative of UMC families and gender dynamics.

I am highly-educated (PhD), grew up UMC, and am currently UMC. Most of my friends are similar, though not all of them grew up UMC. I would say that the vast majority of us are in dual-income households where the woman takes care of the majority of the traditionally female responsibilities (kids, cleaning, etc) and has also made decisions to limit or slow career advancement in order to support those responsibilities. I can't speak to the reasons for everyone I know, but I can speak to my own. There are some idiosyncracies around finding jobs in the same place for DH and I, which resulted in us ending up in a location that was best for DH's career. My observation is that somehow or another, most of my friends up in a similar situation (location based on DH's career). Because of the geographic transition, DH was out-earning me when we had kids. I have had a couple of opportunities for much higher-paying, more demanding jobs, and I ultimately turned them down. My reasoning was that: 1) we could not both have extremely demanding travel and work schedules, 2) I was not confident that DH would step down as much as needed in his career, 3) I wasn't willing to take that risk with small babies, and 4) truth-be-told my career isn't the most important thing to me. It's not for DH either, but he's not shown himself willing to sacrifice any aspect of it. Details for others' are different, but pretty similar. Unlike some of my friends, I think DH is perfectly capable of handling the home front. I'm just not confident that he will; and I value being able to make some of those day-to-day decisions (esp. since one of my kids has delays). Some of my friends don't even think their DH's could handle the homefront...

I'm doing just fine in my career (Director at a company with very few of them, primarily WAH, ~$250K salary)...but I could be doing much better. I've taken on traditionally feminine responsibilities both by choice and by necessity.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I do see this phenomenon. At our local public school there are nearly as many dads at dropoff and pickup as moms, there are lots of dads on the PTA, lots of dads coaching sports and running carpool. At our local private there are no dads evident anywhere except evening events like the auction. Wealthy families seem more likely, in my experience car, to have a single income-earner -- nearly always the dad.

My experience is that this is because the really high-paying jobs demand pretty much all of your energy and attention. Two professionals can do extremely well, both with low six-figure jobs and shared domestic responsibilities. High six-figure jobs and seven-figure jobs almost always require so much time that it's really hard to have two of them in the same household. Gender norms, salary discrimination, and the biological realities of pregnancy make it much more likely that couples who started out with 2 careers will "choose" to prioritize the man's career. I also wonder if having grown up being told we can "have it all" makes us more attuned to what we'd be missing on the family side of things if we took the demanding jobs.

Anonymous wrote:Not jealous. I never understand this reaction. We’re not jealous, we think you are subservient to the male patriarchy and holding women back from upwards mobility and independence.

Oh, and I’m not fat either. Even if I was, it’s funny you think I’m angry and fat in order to not really admire at all women whom uphold traditional gender stereotypes.

I’m not letting it go. You represent second class citizens happy to be subservient to men’s ambitions and dreams. You’re asolutely pathetic as role models to young women.

Anonymous wrote:I do see this phenomenon. At our local public school there are nearly as many dads at dropoff and pickup as moms, there are lots of dads on the PTA, lots of dads coaching sports and running carpool. At our local private there are no dads evident anywhere except evening events like the auction. Wealthy families seem more likely, in my experience car, to have a single income-earner -- nearly always the dad.

Anonymous wrote:Yeah, and I suppose you need a penis to prioritize your career. Way to genuflect SAHMs who left the workforce. You made your choice to be second.