My kids did one of each. One went to a SLAC (as did I) the other to an OOS top flagship in the honors program. Both were great. Full pay at both and they were basically the same price so flagship not a price advantage. Having now been exposed to the state flagship I would choose that over a SLAC. So many more choices of classes and paths and the honors program provided structure and a small environment within a big school. Some say the teaching and focus on undergrads is better at SLACs but that is not always true. My DC at a SLAC had some weak professors and the problem was that if he didn't like them there often wasn't anyone else to take that class, or even the next class from. Some majors had only a couple of professors. Surprisingly even the career center is much better at the flagship - way more companies recruiting on campus, super loyal alumni base all over the country, and having the honors program on the resume IS a differentiator. Some of this may depend on the state flagship of course, and the nature of the honors program.

Anonymous wrote:LACs that generate lots of future PhDs (like the three you flag) are going to suffer in "ten years out" income comparisons. The more "pre-professional" LACs are at least in-line with equivalently ranked universities--W&L at $72,300 and CMC at $75,000, e.g.

Anonymous wrote:LACs are a poor return on investment. There are plenty of data sources on this. Take a look at the salary yardstick here: https://www.kiplinger.com/tool/college/T014-S001-kiplinger-s-best-values-in-private-colleges/index.php?table=all Powerhouse LACs like Williams, Swarthmore, and Pomona (what I consider the top 3) have around 55K salaries 10 years after graduation! The Ivies are usually above 70K. UVA/Berkeley/Ann Arbor are at 60K. Georgetown is at a whopping 90K.

Another source is https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/projects/college-mobility/williams-college

Median income at age 34:

UVA- $71,200
UC Berkeley- $67,900
UM Ann Arbor- $68,700

Williams- $62,600
Swarthmore- $56,700
Pomona- $62,000

So sure, you might have a great experience for four years, but is it really paying some grand dividend for the rest of your life? I don't get it.

This above poster's PhD point is key--that really tilts the "ten year out" ranges--and often the most academically highly ranked SLACs are the ones that produce the most PhDs. Also, SLACs are niche-based--if you know you'll likely want a PhD you're going to go to one of the ones that support that (and have a lower median salary--BUT you'll strengthen your chances of being paid well enough to do work you love). If you think you want a consultancy gig, you'll look at the ones they recruit, some schools are strong pre-law/pre-med, others feed more into finance. The other thing is that there is selection bias--people often choose SLACs because they value something other than just money and SLACs are a route to get that. Median salaries will likely be off because the schools often admit to fill their departments--so you'll have art history, french literature, classics majors etc. in closer proportions than you might at a state school--if someone's dream is to be a curator going to a SLAC is the best route--even if the median salary is not high. That said, SLACs are not the most cost-effective way to get a decent professional job in popular jobs--so if that's your primary aim of college SLACs might not be the best fit (unless you get lots of grant aid). And some SLACs excel at supporting alumni's professional development and some don't. It's also important to dig in the data more if you're not coming from an upper middle class or higher family--are the high end opportunities mainly gotten through family ties or are they more evenly distributed across graduates. I recommend all students though consider SLACs because the aid can be far better making them in some cases cheaper than in-state public (especially flagship publics in more expensive areas) and the 4 year graduation rates are usually much higher.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If all that you care about is ROI, forget cokkege and consider military. Right off the bat, you have no opportunity cost - and that alone is huge because you can set stages for 2nd and 3rd careers. Get out of the military and you'll be first in line for many law enforcement (LEO) positions that often pay 6 figure salaries with perks such as free tuition for self and dependents at state unis. I've seen a short military stint out of HS, follow by a 20 yr LEO 2nd career, and a 3rd career post LEO post mid-40s.

Better yet, go to one of the military academies. Many leave the service after their commitment and get their graduate degrees, MBA for example. Fantastic education, if you can get in.

The only downside to gov't jobs, including service academies, is that people see that as lo life. But you'll be laughing all the way to the bank. I've seen engineers in a private sector who get laid off and squander all their savings waiting for the next job. Even many engineers working on the apollo project were laid off after the project. Many in government like Paul Ryan are dying to retire only after 20 yr service. He's not alone. Many get out the first chance they get to do what they want to do, even if that includes having no specific plans.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You're better off going to the school with better name recognition. No one will know or care that you did honors at UMD. They'll be impressed that you went to Williams though.

Most people, including employers in NOVA, have heard more about UMD than Williams. Sorry, but it's true.

Which is fine if your DC wants to stay in NOVA for the rest of his/her life but if they're like their peers and want to go off to experience NYC or SF or Seattle or LA or or or...etc.

Better off going to Williams.

You can’t generalize like that. It really depends on the field. I’m in tech, and in the tech world/big tech cities like Seattle where employers are looking for demonstrable skills, employers actively seek out grads from schools like Maryland. A Williams or Amherst degree? Don’t see too many of those.

Anonymous wrote:If all that you care about is ROI, forget cokkege and consider military. Right off the bat, you have no opportunity cost - and that alone is huge because you can set stages for 2nd and 3rd careers. Get out of the military and you'll be first in line for many law enforcement (LEO) positions that often pay 6 figure salaries with perks such as free tuition for self and dependents at state unis. I've seen a short military stint out of HS, follow by a 20 yr LEO 2nd career, and a 3rd career post LEO post mid-40s.

Better yet, go to one of the military academies. Many leave the service after their commitment and get their graduate degrees, MBA for example. Fantastic education, if you can get in.

If all that you care about is ROI, forget cokkege and consider military. Right off the bat, you have no opportunity cost - and that alone is huge because you can set stages for 2nd and 3rd careers. Get out of the military and you'll be first in line for many law enforcement (LEO) positions that often pay 6 figure salaries with perks such as free tuition for self and dependents at state unis. I've seen a short military stint out of HS, follow by a 20 yr LEO 2nd career, and a 3rd career post LEO post mid-40s.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You're better off going to the school with better name recognition. No one will know or care that you did honors at UMD. They'll be impressed that you went to Williams though.

Most people, including employers in NOVA, have heard more about UMD than Williams. Sorry, but it's true.

Which is fine if your DC wants to stay in NOVA for the rest of his/her life but if they're like their peers and want to go off to experience NYC or SF or Seattle or LA or or or...etc.

Better off going to Williams.

I worked in SF as a Swarthmore grad and the alumni network/name recognition was very poor. I've heard friends from Williams saying the same thing. These LACs are powerhouses in their respective regions, but outside of them, it's a very niche group who is aware of them.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You're better off going to the school with better name recognition. No one will know or care that you did honors at UMD. They'll be impressed that you went to Williams though.

Most people, including employers in NOVA, have heard more about UMD than Williams. Sorry, but it's true.

Which is fine if your DC wants to stay in NOVA for the rest of his/her life but if they're like their peers and want to go off to experience NYC or SF or Seattle or LA or or or...etc.

Better off going to Williams.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Also, I know PayScale data exists, but it is completely self-reported and I've heard of LAC officials forging salary profiles to do better on that component (it's a factor in some notable rankings). The above salary data comes from federal tax records- it's as accurate a source as one exists out there.

How does the IRS know where a taxpayer went to college??? All this salary data is suspect and is often self reported. I'm an SLAC grad and have a not yet 40 classmate who is making over $25 mil a year w/a CT based hedge fund. If you divide that over our graduating class of roughly 400, that equals $62500/year if every single one of my classmates made ZERO.

OK, that doesn't have much of an impact on median income but my point is the same. At least 10-15% of my graduating class works in finance and I'm sure the median income of my class '03 is closer to $100k.

Anonymous wrote:Also, I know PayScale data exists, but it is completely self-reported and I've heard of LAC officials forging salary profiles to do better on that component (it's a factor in some notable rankings). The above salary data comes from federal tax records- it's as accurate a source as one exists out there.

How does the IRS know where a taxpayer went to college??? All this salary data is suspect and is often self reported. I'm an SLAC grad and have a not yet 40 classmate who is making over $25 mil a year w/a CT based hedge fund. If you divide that over our graduating class of roughly 400, that equals $62500/year if every single one of my classmates made ZERO.

LACs that generate lots of future PhDs (like the three you flag) are going to suffer in "ten years out" income comparisons. The more "pre-professional" LACs are at least in-line with equivalently ranked universities--W&L at $72,300 and CMC at $75,000, e.g.

Anonymous wrote:LACs are a poor return on investment. There are plenty of data sources on this. Take a look at the salary yardstick here: https://www.kiplinger.com/tool/college/T014-S001-kiplinger-s-best-values-in-private-colleges/index.php?table=all Powerhouse LACs like Williams, Swarthmore, and Pomona (what I consider the top 3) have around 55K salaries 10 years after graduation! The Ivies are usually above 70K. UVA/Berkeley/Ann Arbor are at 60K. Georgetown is at a whopping 90K.

Another source is https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/projects/college-mobility/williams-college

Median income at age 34:

UVA- $71,200
UC Berkeley- $67,900
UM Ann Arbor- $68,700

Williams- $62,600
Swarthmore- $56,700
Pomona- $62,000

So sure, you might have a great experience for four years, but is it really paying some grand dividend for the rest of your life? I don't get it.

Also, I know PayScale data exists, but it is completely self-reported and I've heard of LAC officials forging salary profiles to do better on that component (it's a factor in some notable rankings). The above salary data comes from federal tax records- it's as accurate a source as one exists out there.

LACs are a poor return on investment. There are plenty of data sources on this. Take a look at the salary yardstick here: https://www.kiplinger.com/tool/college/T014-S001-kiplinger-s-best-values-in-private-colleges/index.php?table=all Powerhouse LACs like Williams, Swarthmore, and Pomona (what I consider the top 3) have around 55K salaries 10 years after graduation! The Ivies are usually above 70K. UVA/Berkeley/Ann Arbor are at 60K. Georgetown is at a whopping 90K.

Another source is https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/projects/college-mobility/williams-college

Median income at age 34:

UVA- $71,200
UC Berkeley- $67,900
UM Ann Arbor- $68,700

Williams- $62,600
Swarthmore- $56,700
Pomona- $62,000

So sure, you might have a great experience for four years, but is it really paying some grand dividend for the rest of your life? I don't get it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You're better off going to the school with better name recognition. No one will know or care that you did honors at UMD. They'll be impressed that you went to Williams though.

Most people, including employers in NOVA, have heard more about UMD than Williams. Sorry, but it's true.

New poster: This is how I think about the SLAC/flagship distinction. For many places of employment, hiring managers and the like are most likely to be most familiar with the bigger local universities. There are relatively few SLAC graduates compared to any one of these so unless they are 'in the know' re higher ed they might not recognize the differences between say Williams, Wake Forest and Wooster. But what a SLAC often gets you is access to a more selective set of opportunities--often offered through a strong,well-positioned alumni network or a few agencies/consultancy groups with strong hiring ties to the SLAC in question. (Sources of knowledge: I was recruited to a consultancy group fresh out of a SLAC and saw how they and other similar groups operated--almost all of the entry level hires were from SLACs; my husband went to state flagship and got hired to an entry-level position via one of those campus recruiting days from a bunch of corporations).

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You're better off going to the school with better name recognition. No one will know or care that you did honors at UMD. They'll be impressed that you went to Williams though.

Most people, including employers in NOVA, have heard more about UMD than Williams. Sorry, but it's true.

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