UVA , Chicago isn't worth the money. Maybe if it was any ivy

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP.

U of C has better resources. It is a unique and intellectually aggressive place. It is NOT an undergrad business school. Your kid will get a traditional BA there and learn things he probably won't at UVA.

UVA is a fine school, but it is not U of C.

Now, what is the value added from that experience? Only you and your family can decide that. I personally wouldn't do I think if it involved much in the way of loans, but you might have more than me.

What does that catch-all mean exactly for an average middle of the pack student?

Smaller class sizes. Smaller class sizes. More librarians (who are very useful in this modern age because they can help,you find the electronic resources you need, and the library will be in more electronic consortia). Better tech in the classes.... more and varied higher level classes. This kid won't be average at UVA.

OP, one poster commented that this will be obvious after visiting both. If you can't afford that, then choose UVA, but if the money is available, then choose the one that resonates with your kids.

When I was his age, I would have been willing to pay extra to go to a place with no sports scene.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I believe they are really on a par, academically - so where does your kid prefer living and how much do you prefer spending are the questions that need answering. We can't answer that for you.

I'm not being snarky when I ask you this: Why do you think Chicago can charge $74,000 per year and UVA is around $30,000? Was Chicago just throwing darts when coming up with that number? If Chicago wanted to, could they fill the college with smart kids paying $100,000 per year?


...is there no difference in experience at a private U with a $8 billion dollar endowment?

UVA’s endowment is more than a billion more than U of Chicago’s.

It's per capita which matters. Chicago is much smaller.

It's also about how/if they spend it to my benefit. All the endowment in the world is toilet paper if none of that is used to subsidize YOUR child's education on whatever pretext..

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I believe they are really on a par, academically - so where does your kid prefer living and how much do you prefer spending are the questions that need answering. We can't answer that for you.

I'm not being snarky when I ask you this: Why do you think Chicago can charge $74,000 per year and UVA is around $30,000? Was Chicago just throwing darts when coming up with that number? If Chicago wanted to, could they fill the college with smart kids paying $100,000 per year?


...is there no difference in experience at a private U with a $8 billion dollar endowment?

UVA’s endowment is more than a billion more than U of Chicago’s.

It's per capita which matters. Chicago is much smaller.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The data is crystal clear on this: for the students who get into both but elect to go to the state school, their outcomes are the same.

No its not. Read

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2473238

My interpretation of the study (which is just one study) is not the same as yours.

According to the introduction: "This relation between undergraduate status and postbaccalaureate outcomes is not simply driven by higher ability of those graduates of elite institutions but also holds taking into account family background and individual standardized test scores."

That says a lot. In short, a bright, upper middle class student from an educated family is likely to have similar outcomes in life whether she goes to Chicago or UVA. And this bears out what I've seen in real life. There are plenty of successful UVA grads. There are plenty of unsuccessful Chicago grads. It's all about what *you* do with the resources at hand. I don't doubt that Chicago has amazing recruiting but in many ways that's limited to those who aren't interested in finance or business. There are plenty of UVA alums who go on to top graduate schools and into finance and business.

My vote (and I say this as a double Ivy graduate) is to go to the cheapest school and put the differential towards graduate school or even use it as a nice down payment on the first property after college.

The real financial benefits of going Ivy or other top colleges has always accrued more to the first generation, low income students than the standard upper middle class student. This has long been known.

Is OP upper middle class? Low income? First generation? Curious.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

[/b wrote:Anonymous]DC has about 14 days to decide. Undecided on major - maybe trying for the business school McIntire at Virginia. As a parent, is it crazy to think Chicago will have fewer distractions compared to the rah-rah UVA?

If DC is really the one who's undecided, I'd go with UVA.

- It's a fine school.

- For you, it's cheaper.

- It's probably better plugged into D.C.-type jobs.

- The classes and students are probably way more diverse. Your DC would have more freedom to evolve. Your DC could either take very challenging courses at UVA or go in a different, take easy classes and party a lot. That option may not be available at the University of Chicago.

[b]- I've never even seen the University of Chicago, but it sounds as if the University of Chicago is for an intense student who really wants that particular college experience, not for a decent student who just wants to go somewhere respectable for college.

- It's nice to go away for college, but it's also nice to be able go home without getting on a plane.

- It sounds as if the University of Chicago is pretty mean about maximizing its reject rate. Maybe it would be good to turn that university down just to punish it for leading kids on.

If you don’t know anything about one school how can you talk about it?
U of Chicago is going to be the more diverse environment. Also, there is no sorority fraternity vibe at U Chicago, really, where you can definitely find that at UVa.

Omg, autocorrect ...

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Dating pool is different.

Sure, lots of ambitious kids at UVA, but also half that are content with working a normal 9-5 yuppy career.

Chicago is full of gunners aiming for high-status top law schools, medical schools, PhD programs, and big $ tech finance consulting.

Oh lord. If we're going to go down that rabbit-hole, most of the science tech nerds become the worker bees, NOT the CEOS. True story.

Apples to apples, so please exclude baby boomers, and point us to all these high flying generation X’ers who went to UVA and became CEOs. The future is brainy, not barstool sports frat life goofballs allergic to grinding.

I don’t that there are many or any ‘George Hugely’ types at Chicago.

Anonymous wrote:

[/b wrote:Anonymous]DC has about 14 days to decide. Undecided on major - maybe trying for the business school McIntire at Virginia. As a parent, is it crazy to think Chicago will have fewer distractions compared to the rah-rah UVA?

If DC is really the one who's undecided, I'd go with UVA.

- It's a fine school.

- For you, it's cheaper.

- It's probably better plugged into D.C.-type jobs.

- The classes and students are probably way more diverse. Your DC would have more freedom to evolve. Your DC could either take very challenging courses at UVA or go in a different, take easy classes and party a lot. That option may not be available at the University of Chicago.

[b]- I've never even seen the University of Chicago, but it sounds as if the University of Chicago is for an intense student who really wants that particular college experience, not for a decent student who just wants to go somewhere respectable for college.

- It's nice to go away for college, but it's also nice to be able go home without getting on a plane.

- It sounds as if the University of Chicago is pretty mean about maximizing its reject rate. Maybe it would be good to turn that university down just to punish it for leading kids on.

If you don’t know anything about one school how can you talk about it?
U of Chicago is going to be the more du erase environment. Also, there is no sorority fraternity vibe at U Chicago, really, where you can definitely find that at UBa.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I believe they are really on a par, academically - so where does your kid prefer living and how much do you prefer spending are the questions that need answering. We can't answer that for you.

I'm not being snarky when I ask you this: Why do you think Chicago can charge $74,000 per year and UVA is around $30,000? Was Chicago just throwing darts when coming up with that number? If Chicago wanted to, could they fill the college with smart kids paying $100,000 per year?


...is there no difference in experience at a private U with a $8 billion dollar endowment?

Chicago is $78k now...

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The data is crystal clear on this: for the students who get into both but elect to go to the state school, their outcomes are the same.

No its not. Read

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2473238

My interpretation of the study (which is just one study) is not the same as yours.

According to the introduction: "This relation between undergraduate status and postbaccalaureate outcomes is not simply driven by higher ability of those graduates of elite institutions but also holds taking into account family background and individual standardized test scores."

That says a lot. In short, a bright, upper middle class student from an educated family is likely to have similar outcomes in life whether she goes to Chicago or UVA. And this bears out what I've seen in real life. There are plenty of successful UVA grads. There are plenty of unsuccessful Chicago grads. It's all about what *you* do with the resources at hand. I don't doubt that Chicago has amazing recruiting but in many ways that's limited to those who aren't interested in finance or business. There are plenty of UVA alums who go on to top graduate schools and into finance and business.

My vote (and I say this as a double Ivy graduate) is to go to the cheapest school and put the differential towards graduate school or even use it as a nice down payment on the first property after college.

The real financial benefits of going Ivy or other top colleges has always accrued more to the first generation, low income students than the standard upper middle class student. This has long been known.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DC has about 14 days to decide. Undecided on major - maybe trying for the business school McIntire at Virginia. As a parent, is it crazy to think Chicago will have fewer distractions compared to the rah-rah UVA?

If DC is really the one who's undecided, I'd go with UVA.

- It's a fine school.

- For you, it's cheaper.

- It's probably better plugged into D.C.-type jobs.

- The classes and students are probably way more diverse. Your DC would have more freedom to evolve. Your DC could either take very challenging courses at UVA or go in a different, take easy classes and party a lot. That option may not be available at the University of Chicago.

- I've never even seen the University of Chicago, but it sounds as if the University of Chicago is for an intense student who really wants that particular college experience, not for a decent student who just wants to go somewhere respectable for college.

- It's nice to go away for college, but it's also nice to be able go home without getting on a plane.

- It sounds as if the University of Chicago is pretty mean about maximizing its reject rate. Maybe it would be good to turn that university down just to punish it for leading kids on.

The "undecided" status is important. UChicago is not well suited for "undecided". Its emphasis is on academic excellence and achievement. The poster above suggests that UVA may have more options to explore for an undecided student.

Chicago has a very diverse student body and an extensive range of course offerings. Could be a great place for a kid who is undecided on majors (youkre expected/required to take courses un a variety of fields, so you can choose your major based on college-level experience with a variety of disciplines. But, again, you have to want challenging academics.

This whole should be punished for leading kids on thing is just weird. If you’ve seen UofC marketing materials, the pitch is hardly we’re all things to all people. It’s show us you’re passionate about learning and that you’d relish an environment where everybody thinks solving intellectual puzzles is fun. That’s narrow-casting here and now.

Salary data, without more info, looks useless. Includes degrees that don’t exist at UChicago (on the UChicago page). Summary stat doesn’t appear to control for years out of school. Can’t assume higher degrees are necessitated by high tuition vs undergrads who aspire to jobs that require grad degrees. Looks like a Chicago BA who goes to HLS or JHU would have salary attributed to Harvard or Hopkins rather than Chicago.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not on a par academically. Question (in addition to finances) is whether Chicago is overkill for your DC, given personality and interests.

Chicago has a rigorous core, so if DC doesn’t want to retake Calc and chem, as well as a year each of humanities, social science, and civ course (with the option of subbing a couple of arts course for hum/civ), then that could be a deal breaker. On the other hand, if he’s an intellectually-oriented kid looking for a similarly-minded cohort and a well-rounded (vs specialist or pre-professional) education, it could be a great choice.

Re business school, I think Booth has a (highly selective) BA/MBA program and that there will be a new business Econ major next year.

As a U Of C parent, I’ve been wildly impressed by career counseling/internship opportunities, small class sizes, and enthusiastic and accessible profs there.

DC was UVA Echols & UChicago - went UChicago and is VERY happy. DC saw UChicago as focused on academics and very challenging. The comment above is spot on in our experience. In addition, the class sizes are significantly smaller and the TA support is extensive. Opportunities for internships are many and interesting. Chicago is very accessible. Very little to no distractions from Greeks or SJW activities - very focused, diligent classmates and lots of graduate students around. Little to no sports activities. It is an unusual place and for the right kid it's nirvana.

UVA is a very different place - note I'm not judging. I don't think your DC will have any difficulty making the choice after researching and spending some time on each campus.

Good luck!

And don't forget to add that the salary difference appears to be relatively minimal. A UChicago grad's reward for hard work for the next 4 years might be another 2-4 years of even harder work at grad/professional school. Chicago is known as a place where fun goes to die.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DC has about 14 days to decide. Undecided on major - maybe trying for the business school McIntire at Virginia. As a parent, is it crazy to think Chicago will have fewer distractions compared to the rah-rah UVA?

If DC is really the one who's undecided, I'd go with UVA.

- It's a fine school.

- For you, it's cheaper.

- It's probably better plugged into D.C.-type jobs.

- The classes and students are probably way more diverse. Your DC would have more freedom to evolve. Your DC could either take very challenging courses at UVA or go in a different, take easy classes and party a lot. That option may not be available at the University of Chicago.

- I've never even seen the University of Chicago, but it sounds as if the University of Chicago is for an intense student who really wants that particular college experience, not for a decent student who just wants to go somewhere respectable for college.

- It's nice to go away for college, but it's also nice to be able go home without getting on a plane.

- It sounds as if the University of Chicago is pretty mean about maximizing its reject rate. Maybe it would be good to turn that university down just to punish it for leading kids on.

The "undecided" status is important. UChicago is not well suited for "undecided". Its emphasis is on academic excellence and achievement. The poster above suggests that UVA may have more options to explore for an undecided student.

Anonymous wrote:Not on a par academically. Question (in addition to finances) is whether Chicago is overkill for your DC, given personality and interests.

Chicago has a rigorous core, so if DC doesn’t want to retake Calc and chem, as well as a year each of humanities, social science, and civ course (with the option of subbing a couple of arts course for hum/civ), then that could be a deal breaker. On the other hand, if he’s an intellectually-oriented kid looking for a similarly-minded cohort and a well-rounded (vs specialist or pre-professional) education, it could be a great choice.

Re business school, I think Booth has a (highly selective) BA/MBA program and that there will be a new business Econ major next year.

As a U Of C parent, I’ve been wildly impressed by career counseling/internship opportunities, small class sizes, and enthusiastic and accessible profs there.

DC was UVA Echols & UChicago - went UChicago and is VERY happy. DC saw UChicago as focused on academics and very challenging. The comment above is spot on in our experience. In addition, the class sizes are significantly smaller and the TA support is extensive. Opportunities for internships are many and interesting. Chicago is very accessible. Very little to no distractions from Greeks or SJW activities - very focused, diligent classmates and lots of graduate students around. Little to no sports activities. It is an unusual place and for the right kid it's nirvana.

UVA is a very different place - note I'm not judging. I don't think your DC will have any difficulty making the choice after researching and spending some time on each campus.

Good luck!

Anonymous wrote:Chicago's salaries are prob distorted by all the thinkers in professional school and PhD programs. UVA schmucks are all $60k millionaires living in Arlington.

Based on the BA degree salary, it looks like Chicago grads might have no choice but to get higher degrees to pay off the loan. UVA grads might not need higher degrees if they don't have huge loans.