Anonymous
Post 02/05/2018 12:36     Subject: Re:Minorities almost never file the appeals that can help secure their admission to AAP
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I will point out two things. First, as a former elementary teacher, I think most Hispanic and black parents are way, way too deferential to teachers' assessment of their children, including AAP resource teacher. In my experience white and especially Asian parents are much, much more willing to go over a teacher's head and advocate for their children to be in the AAP program. They go and appeal and get a wisc. They parent referral so the student is screened regardless. Black and hispanic parents seem to accept a teacher's assessment that their child shouldn't be in the program and leave it at that.


I could totally see this. My spouse, who is in a pediatric specialty, says that white, educated parents are much more likely to question his diagnosis, ask for other explanations, etc. In contrast, he said that black and Latino families (who are less likely to be well-educated in our urban, gentrifying area) are less likely to ask questions or challenge him, and more apt to just accept his opinion as the authority. FWIW. I think part of it is education/health literacy, and part of it may be cultural (deference to authority).


Yes, this was my experience as an African American mother with three kids in the AAP program. All three kids were in pool, but on the low side of the cut-offs. All three kids were actively discouraged by the AART from the AAP program and didn't get level III services during K-2. I parent referral all three and after looking at the packet, saw the low GBRS and frankly weak work samples complied by said AART and teachers and took matters into my own hands. All three were rejected, I hustled and got all three WISCs and all three were eventually accepted.

It's an uphill battle. I see a lot of people of color either blindly accepting a teacher's or AART's assessment. I didn't and there were still a zillion hoops to jump through all the while trying to convince myself I wasn't setting up my kids' for failure if they ended up in the AAP program and couldn't handle the pace.

My view of it is that it's a good program, all of my kids seem well prepared for middle/high school. But it's definitely set up in a way to pull a good portion of well resourced parents who have no problem fighting and advocating for their children from the general classroom population.


There is no level III in K-2.
Anonymous
Post 02/05/2018 12:34     Subject: Re:Minorities almost never file the appeals that can help secure their admission to AAP
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I will point out two things. First, as a former elementary teacher, I think most Hispanic and black parents are way, way too deferential to teachers' assessment of their children, including AAP resource teacher. In my experience white and especially Asian parents are much, much more willing to go over a teacher's head and advocate for their children to be in the AAP program. They go and appeal and get a wisc. They parent referral so the student is screened regardless. Black and hispanic parents seem to accept a teacher's assessment that their child shouldn't be in the program and leave it at that.


I could totally see this. My spouse, who is in a pediatric specialty, says that white, educated parents are much more likely to question his diagnosis, ask for other explanations, etc. In contrast, he said that black and Latino families (who are less likely to be well-educated in our urban, gentrifying area) are less likely to ask questions or challenge him, and more apt to just accept his opinion as the authority. FWIW. I think part of it is education/health literacy, and part of it may be cultural (deference to authority).


Is your husband ever wrong? Does he every change his mind based on his patients' parents observations?
Anonymous
Post 02/05/2018 12:34     Subject: Re:Minorities almost never file the appeals that can help secure their admission to AAP
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I will point out two things. First, as a former elementary teacher, I think most Hispanic and black parents are way, way too deferential to teachers' assessment of their children, including AAP resource teacher. In my experience white and especially Asian parents are much, much more willing to go over a teacher's head and advocate for their children to be in the AAP program. They go and appeal and get a wisc. They parent referral so the student is screened regardless. Black and hispanic parents seem to accept a teacher's assessment that their child shouldn't be in the program and leave it at that.


I could totally see this. My spouse, who is in a pediatric specialty, says that white, educated parents are much more likely to question his diagnosis, ask for other explanations, etc. In contrast, he said that black and Latino families (who are less likely to be well-educated in our urban, gentrifying area) are less likely to ask questions or challenge him, and more apt to just accept his opinion as the authority. FWIW. I think part of it is education/health literacy, and part of it may be cultural (deference to authority).


Yes, this was my experience as an African American mother with three kids in the AAP program. All three kids were in pool, but on the low side of the cut-offs. All three kids were actively discouraged by the AART from the AAP program and didn't get level III services during K-2. I parent referral all three and after looking at the packet, saw the low GBRS and frankly weak work samples complied by said AART and teachers and took matters into my own hands. All three were rejected, I hustled and got all three WISCs and all three were eventually accepted.

It's an uphill battle. I see a lot of people of color either blindly accepting a teacher's or AART's assessment. I didn't and there were still a zillion hoops to jump through all the while trying to convince myself I wasn't setting up my kids' for failure if they ended up in the AAP program and couldn't handle the pace.

My view of it is that it's a good program, all of my kids seem well prepared for middle/high school. But it's definitely set up in a way to pull a good portion of well resourced parents who have no problem fighting and advocating for their children from the general classroom population.
Anonymous
Post 02/05/2018 12:33     Subject: Re:Minorities almost never file the appeals that can help secure their admission to AAP
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Topic: Minorities almost never file the appeals that can help secure their admission to AAP

This is just a statement!

What is the question? What are we discussing?


We are discussing why that might be the case.


So you are throwing a NOT well documented article, based on subjectivity and hear say, to a bunch of people who most likely do not have the required specific case knowledge and qualifications to discuss this properly, so you can figure out why this issue (for which you don't even have proof) exists?

If you believe that this issue exists, what are you personally doing to help and ensure that this problem is resolved? How did you come to this belief and how did you ensure that you are actually dealing with an issue?


The WaPo article pointed to an AP investigation, which is also described in this article. https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/school-systems-appeals-process-leaves-some-minorities-out/2018/02/03/1dbc302c-08eb-11e8-aa61-f3391373867e_story.html?utm_term=.e86b2b3f05f7

Actually, although I understand that this is expensive, the obvious answer seems to be to administer a WISC or other formal IQ test to all in pool candidates -- perhaps even lowering the pool cutoff to 130 or 128 on either test or any subscore in order to capture the largest number of students.


Using the Virginia Freedom of Information Act to obtain 10 years of county records (does not say from which year to which year. It does not mean that they received/analyzed all 10 years of those data), The Associated Press found that fewer than 50 black and Hispanic second-graders have filed successful appeals. That’s less than 3 percent of the 1,737 second-graders admitted through the appeals process, further skewing a program already heavily weighted toward whites and Asians. It does not say how many appeals are filed from those racial minorities, and what is the successful PERCENTAGE.

Fairfax County has the nation’s 10th largest public school system, with more than 188,000 students. Of those, 25 percent are Hispanic and 10 percent are African-American. But over the last 10 years, blacks and Hispanics have constituted only 12 percent of the students deemed eligible for Level IV, the most advanced academic program. This is NOT an apples to apples comparison. If you want to make the correct comparison you have to slice the data correctly. If skin color is NOT the requirement, then you have to see how many kids are admitted and regulate for ethnicity, income, parents'' level of education, and a lot of other factors. This rate can also be compared to the national rate, and to national demographics. Also, these numbers do NOT clarify the percentage of in-pool/parent referral by race and ethnicity. That would shine some light on how many kids are in-pool vs. parent pushed vs. teacher pushed

Notably, the data show that when black and Hispanic students do submit intelligence tests, they are just as likely to gain admission as their white and Asian counterparts. The problem is that black and Hispanic students only rarely submit appeals. It does not discuss when they are submitting the intelligence tests, whether these kids are in/out of pool, and which tests those may be, and what are the cutoffs for different ethnicities/demographics. It does not explain how the intelligence tests are linked to the appeals process

SO, in conclusion, this is a phony article, designed to stir things up without merit. IF there any merit, the article would not have any gaps in explaining all the needed details.
Anonymous
Post 02/05/2018 12:14     Subject: Re:Minorities almost never file the appeals that can help secure their admission to AAP
Anonymous wrote:I will point out two things. First, as a former elementary teacher, I think most Hispanic and black parents are way, way too deferential to teachers' assessment of their children, including AAP resource teacher. In my experience white and especially Asian parents are much, much more willing to go over a teacher's head and advocate for their children to be in the AAP program. They go and appeal and get a wisc. They parent referral so the student is screened regardless. Black and hispanic parents seem to accept a teacher's assessment that their child shouldn't be in the program and leave it at that.


I could totally see this. My spouse, who is in a pediatric specialty, says that white, educated parents are much more likely to question his diagnosis, ask for other explanations, etc. In contrast, he said that black and Latino families (who are less likely to be well-educated in our urban, gentrifying area) are less likely to ask questions or challenge him, and more apt to just accept his opinion as the authority. FWIW. I think part of it is education/health literacy, and part of it may be cultural (deference to authority).
Anonymous
Post 02/05/2018 12:10     Subject: Re:Minorities almost never file the appeals that can help secure their admission to AAP
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Topic: Minorities almost never file the appeals that can help secure their admission to AAP

This is just a statement!

What is the question? What are we discussing?


We are discussing why that might be the case.


So you are throwing a NOT well documented article, based on subjectivity and hear say, to a bunch of people who most likely do not have the required specific case knowledge and qualifications to discuss this properly, so you can figure out why this issue (for which you don't even have proof) exists?

If you believe that this issue exists, what are you personally doing to help and ensure that this problem is resolved? How did you come to this belief and how did you ensure that you are actually dealing with an issue?


The WaPo article pointed to an AP investigation, which is also described in this article. https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/school-systems-appeals-process-leaves-some-minorities-out/2018/02/03/1dbc302c-08eb-11e8-aa61-f3391373867e_story.html?utm_term=.e86b2b3f05f7

Actually, although I understand that this is expensive, the obvious answer seems to be to administer a WISC or other formal IQ test to all in pool candidates -- perhaps even lowering the pool cutoff to 130 or 128 on either test or any subscore in order to capture the largest number of students.
Anonymous
Post 02/05/2018 12:08     Subject: Re:Minorities almost never file the appeals that can help secure their admission to AAP
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Topic: Minorities almost never file the appeals that can help secure their admission to AAP

This is just a statement!

What is the question? What are we discussing?


We are discussing why that might be the case.


So you are throwing a NOT well documented article, based on subjectivity and hear say, to a bunch of people who most likely do not have the required specific case knowledge and qualifications to discuss this properly, so you can figure out why this issue (for which you don't even have proof) exists?

If you believe that this issue exists, what are you personally doing to help and ensure that this problem is resolved? How did you come to this belief and how did you ensure that you are actually dealing with an issue? [/quote

People can discuss whatever they’d like.
Anonymous
Post 02/05/2018 12:07     Subject: Minorities almost never file the appeals that can help secure their admission to AAP
Anonymous wrote:A lot of it is knowing the system here in FCPS. I'm white, and it honestly didn't occur to me that a large group of kids under the cutoff would be admitted. I assumed that the program was only for gifted kids and outliers, and I also assumed that the school would either tell me that my child belonged in AAP, or would automatically refer and place my child. It wasn't until after I started reading dcum and talking to neighbors that I realized that strong parental involvement was one reason many kids were being admitted to AAP. I can easily see why hispanic or lower SES families who don't have the luxury of being over-involved in their children's education might assume that the schools would just appropriately place their children, that children who didn't test in don't belong in AAP, and that if a child is rejected, they should just accept that and move on.

People have said on these forums that one of the reasons for so many parent referrals, appeals, and applying year after year is that parents just won't take "no" for an answer. On the flip side, clearly some groups are taking "no" for an answer way too easily. I would still love to see the demographics for parent referrals for kids in the 120-126 score range as well as the 126-131 range. I wouldn't at all be surprised if the overwhelming majority of white or asian kids in the 120-125 range are parent referred, while a decent percent of black or hispanic ones aren't.


This covers it. The marked difference my nanny (Hispanic) consistently discusses about the difference between her Mom and myself (Black) is that I stand up for myself and don't take no as an answer. She's told me countless times how growing up she didn't feel advocated for by her mother because she took whatever school directive was issued. This is not an inherently cultural issue, but certainly a 'cultural' of how one is raised. Are rules meant to be followed without question? Are decisions final? Is there a workaround? I'm a naturally challenging personality. My boss, who is White and male NEVER challenges authority. He is from an immigrant/blue collar background, and I can see his difficulties navigating the politics of work life.

Another thing that surprised me as I've gotten older. The number of White people that don't consider schools when they buy a home. Somehow it isn't as detrimental to their kids' overall education experience, but surprising nonetheless.
Anonymous
Post 02/05/2018 12:01     Subject: Re:Minorities almost never file the appeals that can help secure their admission to AAP
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Topic: Minorities almost never file the appeals that can help secure their admission to AAP

This is just a statement!

What is the question? What are we discussing?


We are discussing why that might be the case.


So you are throwing a NOT well documented article, based on subjectivity and hear say, to a bunch of people who most likely do not have the required specific case knowledge and qualifications to discuss this properly, so you can figure out why this issue (for which you don't even have proof) exists?

If you believe that this issue exists, what are you personally doing to help and ensure that this problem is resolved? How did you come to this belief and how did you ensure that you are actually dealing with an issue?
Anonymous
Post 02/05/2018 11:54     Subject: Minorities almost never file the appeals that can help secure their admission to AAP
Anonymous wrote:Second, I think AAP resource teachers do a terrible job in identifying minority children that might benefit from the program. The approach I saw was that they were more likely to say "so and so is served well in the classroom" and leave it to that.



That is interesting.
Anonymous
Post 02/05/2018 11:53     Subject: Re:Minorities almost never file the appeals that can help secure their admission to AAP
Anonymous wrote:Topic: Minorities almost never file the appeals that can help secure their admission to AAP

This is just a statement!

What is the question? What are we discussing?


We are discussing why that might be the case.
Anonymous
Post 02/05/2018 11:06     Subject: Re:Minorities almost never file the appeals that can help secure their admission to AAP
Topic: Minorities almost never file the appeals that can help secure their admission to AAP

This is just a statement!

What is the question? What are we discussing?
Anonymous
Post 02/05/2018 09:44     Subject: Minorities almost never file the appeals that can help secure their admission to AAP
Second, I think AAP resource teachers do a terrible job in identifying minority children that might benefit from the program. The approach I saw was that they were more likely to say "so and so is served well in the classroom" and leave it to that.
Anonymous
Post 02/05/2018 09:42     Subject: Re:Minorities almost never file the appeals that can help secure their admission to AAP
I will point out two things. First, as a former elementary teacher, I think most Hispanic and black parents are way, way too deferential to teachers' assessment of their children, including AAP resource teacher. In my experience white and especially Asian parents are much, much more willing to go over a teacher's head and advocate for their children to be in the AAP program. They go and appeal and get a wisc. They parent referral so the student is screened regardless. Black and hispanic parents seem to accept a teacher's assessment that their child shouldn't be in the program and leave it at that.
Anonymous
Post 02/05/2018 09:36     Subject: Minorities almost never file the appeals that can help secure their admission to AAP
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:^ I wonder whether there's a racial difference in the rate of parent referrals for kids who are close to the pool cutoff. What percent of white or asian parents complete a parent referral for these kids vs. the percent of black or hispanic parents who do so.


I think for Hispanics there probably is a difference. Some have language barriers that make is hard for them to complete the packet. DC's best friend is Hispanic and her mom asked the AART multiple times for help and the AART basically told her that she can only help so much, and never really made time to help. I ended up helping with the packet. The other issue is level II service were offered automatically, so she assumed if her DC continued to do well, the teacher would recommend for level IV too. My experience is that many of these parents just don't fully understand the process. The scores coming out so close to the deadline doesn't help either because it leaves little time for them to ask around about what the scores mean. There's also a disparity with respect to some people prepping and others not prepping. These families are less likely to be in the know about test prep materials. I'm not saying prepping is bad or good. I'm just saying that there will be an increase in the disparity of those admitted if some groups prep and others don't.


But is the packet really all that difficult to fill out? It's simply asking for a parent to write down some thoughts on their child.

As far as the cost of a WISC test, isn't the cost greatly reduced for low income families?


Do you think these families are not appealing because they are lazy?


I think many of them don’t appeal because they don’t understand how important a change in classroom or different learning environment could be for their child. Most of these parents are not college educated, so they may not fully get how education and the right education for your child makes a huge difference.