8:27. There is no way they are doing things intentionally to make it harder for teachers. I don't know how hard it is to find the information but you said it was available so likely they think you are just complaining about something that you can already find. Also you said you complained individually verses as a group. Did you provide a mockup and go step by step what they would have to do? Is your whole school on board? It is hard to request data be consolidated in specific charts when it's available. That again is another problem that is inherent to all businesses. A lot of people in business think admin is there to support them but they see themselves as having their own independent jobs. They also don't understand how long tasks take until many complain because you are basically saying that their mandate isn't working. It takes time and many people and angles to convince them otherwise. Still not buying that the teaching profession is completely different from any other industry. Governmental programs have more bureaucracy than private, but they are still run by people.

I am not blaming teachers. Their clients (ie parents and government) are demanding. What I'm trying to say is that this is an internal issue that can only be resolved internally or at least with a teacher lead. Parents and the PTO or the school board can support, but they can't be the lead. If it comes from the outside it will be a mandate and rejected by a teacher because it doesn't come from the teachers. You can't want more autonomy and also demand that others do so much for you without your own input.

Good luck. Advocacy advice is best summed up by that video which I already posted.

Indeed 23:13 has no idea that schools aren't well run. It seems that that poster is lucky enough to be in a semi-functioning company where people are interested in making their product better.
23:13, you are make assumptions about fixing internal issues from your framework of reference, business, which is vastly different from politicized education.
Once again, Nice work blaming the teachers for all that is wrong with education!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ok I'll bite... Of course GE has different levels of Admin, but they also have different brands, different products, HR, PR etc. each with it's own specialty. GE also has easily quantifiable products; X number of ovens, lightbulbs or dollars made.

Education has one purpose- to teach and prepare the next generation of citizens. This is something EVERYONE knows something about(we have all been to school) and is NOT easily quantifiable (although Greatschools and testing companies are trying). Because of this, even within the profession (much less society) we have not actually come to consensus about what makes a teacher good and found ways to quantify it. This makes it much easier for bullying and power to take precedence because the very definition of what higher ups are looking for changes with each observer. Any higher up can observe any teacher (or employee) and decide the teacher is doing XY and z wrong and there fore that person is ineffective, but the next observer will say teacher is good at XYZm but Q is more important and they are not doing Q.
All of this uncertainty makes it more difficult for a teacher to stand up and know whom to present ideas to. Not to mention that the targets ZYX change yearly as "new research" is repackaged.
Not everything is a business and I hope you understand that children are not products!

The problem of higher ups dictating what others do has been going on for centuries in all professions. The main difference over the years I've seen is that teaching like every other profession is getting more specialized requires more collaboration. The profession is trying to do better often with poorer children and to do things better typically requires more people. The teacher in the one room schoolhouse might have had to do a wider variety of tasks, but wasn't judged as much on effectiveness and didn't have to collaborate as much. Some professionals welcome decisions made by higher ups and others don't. Even in a profession as autonomous as surgery, some surgeons are happy to watch a higher up do it one way and use that method while another one wants more autonomy and is willing to risk their insurance to try something better.

Your problem is an internal one. You are not getting anything out of the time spent on the meeting. It is not one that can be fixed by parents or administrators. It requires teachers to speak up and maybe actually volunteer to type up the parking lot questions and send them on and follow up verses expecting someone else to handle it.

I have read about ineffective meetings by teachers and other professions for years. School Board members complain about them too. No one wants to pay for ineffective meetings. They want teachers in the classroom. So you have that on your side. They just need teachers to speak up on what is working and what isn't without complaining. Saying teachers don't want to be judged by others is an ineffective argument. Saying this method didn't work as well as this other method or this method took five times as long to achieve the same thing as we got with the previous method are just better arguments.

No, actually they don't. "They" are in Central Office for a year or two. "They" are more concerned with exerting their own power than anything else. "They" will require us to do the data entry rather than going to our vendor or technology staff and asking that a simple report be made that will pull the data for us so that we can spend our time analyzing rather than typing. "They" don't value education or the value of teaching and learning. "They" value the excitement of hearing their voice more than "they" value hearing the voice of a child learning.

I have been working in my school system at two different schools for 8 years. Every year for the past 5 years or so (since we have had SchoolNet) I have asked for a report that I can run that pulls my students SOL scores and grades in reading and math from prior years. So that I can see their trends. I have made this request to my Principal, my AP, our subject area Coach, the Central Office curriculum specialist for my subject area, Help Desk, and at the Teacher Advisory Council. Each year I provide data on how long it takes an individual teacher to gather this data. Each year I suggest that it would be better to make a report (or two if that is what it takes) to do the same task. But each year instead I spend hours going through SchoolNet looking for this data record by record by record for each student and that is over 120 children. Whether I can show this data is part of my evaluation when my evaluator wants to know my students' progress. I am asked to give it electronically to the AP who then, I'm sure, uses it for exactly nothing at all since he or she frequently forgets that I've turned it in and asks me to resubmit it. Usually the AP asks me for it again during the middle of class because she or he is heading into a Central Office meeting and she or he needs to show it to some flunky there.

I understand what you're saying, PP, but you are presuming that our school systems are well-run by well-intentioned people. They aren't. Our School Board is a flat out mess and the stuff runs downhill. At the bottom of the hill is a teacher with a bucket panning for gold and getting...stuff.

Anonymous wrote:Ok I'll bite... Of course GE has different levels of Admin, but they also have different brands, different products, HR, PR etc. each with it's own specialty. GE also has easily quantifiable products; X number of ovens, lightbulbs or dollars made.

Education has one purpose- to teach and prepare the next generation of citizens. This is something EVERYONE knows something about(we have all been to school) and is NOT easily quantifiable (although Greatschools and testing companies are trying). Because of this, even within the profession (much less society) we have not actually come to consensus about what makes a teacher good and found ways to quantify it. This makes it much easier for bullying and power to take precedence because the very definition of what higher ups are looking for changes with each observer. Any higher up can observe any teacher (or employee) and decide the teacher is doing XY and z wrong and there fore that person is ineffective, but the next observer will say teacher is good at XYZm but Q is more important and they are not doing Q.
All of this uncertainty makes it more difficult for a teacher to stand up and know whom to present ideas to. Not to mention that the targets ZYX change yearly as "new research" is repackaged.
Not everything is a business and I hope you understand that children are not products!

The problem of higher ups dictating what others do has been going on for centuries in all professions. The main difference over the years I've seen is that teaching like every other profession is getting more specialized requires more collaboration. The profession is trying to do better often with poorer children and to do things better typically requires more people. The teacher in the one room schoolhouse might have had to do a wider variety of tasks, but wasn't judged as much on effectiveness and didn't have to collaborate as much. Some professionals welcome decisions made by higher ups and others don't. Even in a profession as autonomous as surgery, some surgeons are happy to watch a higher up do it one way and use that method while another one wants more autonomy and is willing to risk their insurance to try something better.

Your problem is an internal one. You are not getting anything out of the time spent on the meeting. It is not one that can be fixed by parents or administrators. It requires teachers to speak up and maybe actually volunteer to type up the parking lot questions and send them on and follow up verses expecting someone else to handle it.

I have read about ineffective meetings by teachers and other professions for years. School Board members complain about them too. No one wants to pay for ineffective meetings. They want teachers in the classroom. So you have that on your side. They just need teachers to speak up on what is working and what isn't without complaining. Saying teachers don't want to be judged by others is an ineffective argument. Saying this method didn't work as well as this other method or this method took five times as long to achieve the same thing as we got with the previous method are just better arguments.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm in my first year of teaching and what I notice after sitting in countless meetings -- yes, countless and it is only my first year. What I've noticed is that teachers are too polite and say "yes" too often. We need to grow a spine and speak up as a united voice or this type of crappy management will only continue. And yes, reach out especially to your PTO presidents and tell them what is going on. Principals and admin actually listen to them.

PTO? None of the schools I've worked in have a PTO. My current school has something sort of like it and there are no more than 6 parents who show up to meetings (out of more than 700 students).

Then contact the media.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm in my first year of teaching and what I notice after sitting in countless meetings -- yes, countless and it is only my first year. What I've noticed is that teachers are too polite and say "yes" too often. We need to grow a spine and speak up as a united voice or this type of crappy management will only continue. And yes, reach out especially to your PTO presidents and tell them what is going on. Principals and admin actually listen to them.

PTO? None of the schools I've worked in have a PTO. My current school has something sort of like it and there are no more than 6 parents who show up to meetings (out of more than 700 students).

Let me guess, high FARMS school?

Anonymous wrote:I'm in my first year of teaching and what I notice after sitting in countless meetings -- yes, countless and it is only my first year. What I've noticed is that teachers are too polite and say "yes" too often. We need to grow a spine and speak up as a united voice or this type of crappy management will only continue. And yes, reach out especially to your PTO presidents and tell them what is going on. Principals and admin actually listen to them.

PTO? None of the schools I've worked in have a PTO. My current school has something sort of like it and there are no more than 6 parents who show up to meetings (out of more than 700 students).

I'm in my first year of teaching and what I notice after sitting in countless meetings -- yes, countless and it is only my first year. What I've noticed is that teachers are too polite and say "yes" too often. We need to grow a spine and speak up as a united voice or this type of crappy management will only continue. And yes, reach out especially to your PTO presidents and tell them what is going on. Principals and admin actually listen to them.

Ok I'll bite... Of course GE has different levels of Admin, but they also have different brands, different products, HR, PR etc. each with it's own specialty. GE also has easily quantifiable products; X number of ovens, lightbulbs or dollars made.

Education has one purpose- to teach and prepare the next generation of citizens. This is something EVERYONE knows something about(we have all been to school) and is NOT easily quantifiable (although Greatschools and testing companies are trying). Because of this, even within the profession (much less society) we have not actually come to consensus about what makes a teacher good and found ways to quantify it. This makes it much easier for bullying and power to take precedence because the very definition of what higher ups are looking for changes with each observer. Any higher up can observe any teacher (or employee) and decide the teacher is doing XY and z wrong and there fore that person is ineffective, but the next observer will say teacher is good at XYZm but Q is more important and they are not doing Q.
All of this uncertainty makes it more difficult for a teacher to stand up and know whom to present ideas to. Not to mention that the targets ZYX change yearly as "new research" is repackaged.
Not everything is a business and I hope you understand that children are not products!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I posted about having to need a sub for my meeting yesterday. We talked about new quarterly writing assessments we now have to do. When the teachers asked the head of the district how this data will be use (we have to enter the score for each question by hand; no scantron), she said she didn't know. She said her higher ups told her we all had to do it. Okaaaaay. It took me probably 5-6 hours to enter this information for the first quarter. So instead of planning for my students, I am entering scores for no reason other than because we have to. Makes no sense. If it did make sense, my district wouldn't be interested.

So this is how I would handle this. First, I would compare it to whatever I had been doing previously. I assume some sort of assessment on writing had already been going on. I would ask questions such as what it is for and how we will use it and ask that my supervisor request that information. I would calculate the additional time needed and determine whether it would save me time doing other tasks. Once I had that information I would actually do the task and monitor it over time. I would wait for the feedback on the questions I had. Then I would take initiative to request change based on my observations of my students and myself and my colleagues. I don't need to be in the teaching profession to know how to deal with an ineffective mandate.

Gee whiz. I wish I had thought of that. The feedback on our questions (put on the "parking lot") will never be answered. In another year or two, something else will come along. It will be the silver bullet of silver bullets.

I love when we put sticky notes on the "parking lot" or "bin", and they are never ever followed up on. At the end it's always the same spiel..."These are some great questions! I wish we had time to answer them right now, but unfortunately we're out of time! Some of them we'll have to get clarification on from our bosses. We'll type them up and send them out over email/share them via Google doc/post them on the Outlook folder. Be on the lookout!"

***crickets***

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I posted about having to need a sub for my meeting yesterday. We talked about new quarterly writing assessments we now have to do. When the teachers asked the head of the district how this data will be use (we have to enter the score for each question by hand; no scantron), she said she didn't know. She said her higher ups told her we all had to do it. Okaaaaay. It took me probably 5-6 hours to enter this information for the first quarter. So instead of planning for my students, I am entering scores for no reason other than because we have to. Makes no sense. If it did make sense, my district wouldn't be interested.

So this is how I would handle this. First, I would compare it to whatever I had been doing previously. I assume some sort of assessment on writing had already been going on. I would ask questions such as what it is for and how we will use it and ask that my supervisor request that information. I would calculate the additional time needed and determine whether it would save me time doing other tasks. Once I had that information I would actually do the task and monitor it over time. I would wait for the feedback on the questions I had. Then I would take initiative to request change based on my observations of my students and myself and my colleagues. I don't need to be in the teaching profession to know how to deal with an ineffective mandate.

Gee whiz. I wish I had thought of that. The feedback on our questions (put on the "parking lot") will never be answered. In another year or two, something else will come along. It will be the silver bullet of silver bullets.

Well the person who asked if I ever spoke up to my boss obviously didn't.

Realistically, what typically happens next is that the comment is noted and monitored by others. The idea would be planted in others heads and if it was a good one, it would get more support. Eventually others would agree and push for the same change and maybe as a group we'd just start implementing it in part. Word might get out to the boss and to the hire ups about the idea. Eventually the higher up would either just give in or change their policy. Maybe one of the bosses changes and that person is more receptive. It may take one month to five years before that change is made. It depends in part on how much help it is to the organization and who supports it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I posted about having to need a sub for my meeting yesterday. We talked about new quarterly writing assessments we now have to do. When the teachers asked the head of the district how this data will be use (we have to enter the score for each question by hand; no scantron), she said she didn't know. She said her higher ups told her we all had to do it. Okaaaaay. It took me probably 5-6 hours to enter this information for the first quarter. So instead of planning for my students, I am entering scores for no reason other than because we have to. Makes no sense. If it did make sense, my district wouldn't be interested.

So this is how I would handle this. First, I would compare it to whatever I had been doing previously. I assume some sort of assessment on writing had already been going on. I would ask questions such as what it is for and how we will use it and ask that my supervisor request that information. I would calculate the additional time needed and determine whether it would save me time doing other tasks. Once I had that information I would actually do the task and monitor it over time. I would wait for the feedback on the questions I had. Then I would take initiative to request change based on my observations of my students and myself and my colleagues. I don't need to be in the teaching profession to know how to deal with an ineffective mandate.

Gee whiz. I wish I had thought of that. The feedback on our questions (put on the "parking lot") will never be answered. In another year or two, something else will come along. It will be the silver bullet of silver bullets.

Anonymous wrote:I posted about having to need a sub for my meeting yesterday. We talked about new quarterly writing assessments we now have to do. When the teachers asked the head of the district how this data will be use (we have to enter the score for each question by hand; no scantron), she said she didn't know. She said her higher ups told her we all had to do it. Okaaaaay. It took me probably 5-6 hours to enter this information for the first quarter. So instead of planning for my students, I am entering scores for no reason other than because we have to. Makes no sense. If it did make sense, my district wouldn't be interested.

So this is how I would handle this. First, I would compare it to whatever I had been doing previously. I assume some sort of assessment on writing had already been going on. I would ask questions such as what it is for and how we will use it and ask that my supervisor request that information. I would calculate the additional time needed and determine whether it would save me time doing other tasks. Once I had that information I would actually do the task and monitor it over time. I would wait for the feedback on the questions I had. Then I would take initiative to request change based on my observations of my students and myself and my colleagues. I don't need to be in the teaching profession to know how to deal with an ineffective mandate.

Anonymous wrote:[b]
As it has already been pointed out you clearly work in a field where your opinion is respected. It makes a difference. Hence, teachers have unions so perhaps you can just forward your link over to the local teacher's unions since they obviously don't know any of this. This is very condescending and just drives home the point.

Anonymous wrote:Do you just tell your boss what to do and how to do it? Sheesh.

Yes. I do. I make suggestions and we have discussions. I even have the same discussions with the owner of the company although I have to have those tactfully. I don't bring up issues all the time and I realize change takes time. Some things aren't changed or aren't changed the 2nd, 3rd, or even 10th time and you have to accept, keep pushing, or move on. It's called being a professional. This is not a new idea. Here's a video from 1949 that talks about keeping a job and it actually mentions suggestions from employees to the employer and how to do it correctly and incorrectly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxOLdKX3BTQ

I do not work in a field where my opinion is respected outright. It's something I've had to work for and do work for all the time and I don't always get heard. In fact it is rare and it takes years for change. I'm not always everyone's best friend. However I'm not afraid to speak up. There is no union and the entire upper management minus HR is male. There are people in my family who are teachers and have been for a century and I've heard their stories. I'm not making comments on specific ways to fix problems. I'm making general observations. After many years of working and hearing their stories as well I have some ideas about teaching and how it compares to other professions. I really don't think they are that different. The problems being described are similar ineffective practices that are used at many companies. That's why there are TV shows like the office. Most professions don't even have unions so they don't have that go between.