Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This thread is interesting.

I am a POC who started my career in Big Law. At the time, there was only one POC partner and he wielded significant power because he had been high up at DOJ and was a tremendous rainmaker. While I was there, I was told a number of negative things about my ability and my future – one partner was especially nasty. It was demoralizing. Well POC partner told me that he learned early on that POC cannot make partner like others make partner. There are too many minefields for most associates, but especially women and POC, to come up through the ranks. We need to do some time in BigLaw, go elsewhere (government or in-house), forge relationships and come back with our books in tow. Well, I did my time there and moved on. I am now the Dep GC at a medium/large company and I control a $30 million outside counsel budget – nothing huge but enough to get some attention from Big Law partners. My internal clients are diverse and very smart – a legal team that is not diverse would not be an easy sell.

I do not “insist” on diversity with respect to my outside counsel but I do ask if I do not see any. If I get a BS answer, it is likely that the firm will not get my business. Having been where I have been and working with diverse clients, I KNOW that the definition of “qualified” is not a static definition. I also know that there are a lot of qualified lawyers who do not fit the Big Law mold.

Good for you. (Another POC attorney, in-house here).

I wish this message was clearer to me when I was a younger black big law associate. I wouldn't have taken the criticism so hard and blamed myself. I did everything I could to make it work, billed tons of hours, wrote briefs, was the first in my class to take a deposition for a paying client, but I got the bad review during my 4th year that I "lacked attention to detail" and would need to find another job. No negative feedback from the partners and my firm had a policy that we couldn't read the reviews because the partners wouldn't be candid. It was a big firm in Chicago.

It was the only thing I've ever "failed" at achieving. To law school, law review, etc. Ironically, it was for the best, because like y'all, I went into the government (clerking then SEC), worked my way up, and am an in-house attorney who's doing incredibly well (7 years in house).

It was a difficult few years and it took time to get my confidence back. I'll never forget during my last day I demanded and made copies of my reviews. They were full of things I've never heard about, events I was never involved in...just lies. I didn't fight it, but left, clerked, and realized that even if I did something, the negative attention would be career suicide and firms aren't dumb...there's plenty of ways to meet their burden to beat off a discrimination complaint through endless papering of files.

I wish we were more honest.

Thanks so much for posting this! I'm the PP black female mom in big law and really needed this. I'm in the midst of the storm right now and am glad to hear that you landed very well. I'm looking for my next opportunity now (in-house or gov) and this gives me hope.

PP here. If you can swing it, clerking is a fantastic bridge. I used my severance to help deal with the pay cut and get adjusted to the lower salary. I've spent several years in the 100-125K range until I went in house. I now am in the 250K-300K range about 15 years in.

I obviously took a hit for about 10 years where I wasn't making much. But I did actually have the time to fall in love (an impossibility when I was working 70 hour weeks and traveling tons at biglaw), have two kids, and build my life up. In a strange way, I found my way to a great life. But I won't lie, it was a hard year. I spent a lot of my clerkship year working with a therapist to move forward in a healthy way.

Good luck, PP.

I want you to be my mentor! LOL!! I clerked at the district court level straight out of law school. An appellate clerkship may be awkward at this point (I'm 9 years out). I've wrapped my mind around the pay cut and have a very healthy personal life outside of the firm. But the firm has really played a Jedi mind trick with me professionally and I feel like shit. Not to totally derail this thread, but therapy is a good idea. What kind of therapist did you contact? If you want to start a new thread, I'll look out for it on this board. THANKS!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This thread is interesting.

I am a POC who started my career in Big Law. At the time, there was only one POC partner and he wielded significant power because he had been high up at DOJ and was a tremendous rainmaker. While I was there, I was told a number of negative things about my ability and my future – one partner was especially nasty. It was demoralizing. Well POC partner told me that he learned early on that POC cannot make partner like others make partner. There are too many minefields for most associates, but especially women and POC, to come up through the ranks. We need to do some time in BigLaw, go elsewhere (government or in-house), forge relationships and come back with our books in tow. Well, I did my time there and moved on. I am now the Dep GC at a medium/large company and I control a $30 million outside counsel budget – nothing huge but enough to get some attention from Big Law partners. My internal clients are diverse and very smart – a legal team that is not diverse would not be an easy sell.

I do not “insist” on diversity with respect to my outside counsel but I do ask if I do not see any. If I get a BS answer, it is likely that the firm will not get my business. Having been where I have been and working with diverse clients, I KNOW that the definition of “qualified” is not a static definition. I also know that there are a lot of qualified lawyers who do not fit the Big Law mold.

Good for you. (Another POC attorney, in-house here).

I wish this message was clearer to me when I was a younger black big law associate. I wouldn't have taken the criticism so hard and blamed myself. I did everything I could to make it work, billed tons of hours, wrote briefs, was the first in my class to take a deposition for a paying client, but I got the bad review during my 4th year that I "lacked attention to detail" and would need to find another job. No negative feedback from the partners and my firm had a policy that we couldn't read the reviews because the partners wouldn't be candid. It was a big firm in Chicago.

It was the only thing I've ever "failed" at achieving. To law school, law review, etc. Ironically, it was for the best, because like y'all, I went into the government (clerking then SEC), worked my way up, and am an in-house attorney who's doing incredibly well (7 years in house).

It was a difficult few years and it took time to get my confidence back. I'll never forget during my last day I demanded and made copies of my reviews. They were full of things I've never heard about, events I was never involved in...just lies. I didn't fight it, but left, clerked, and realized that even if I did something, the negative attention would be career suicide and firms aren't dumb...there's plenty of ways to meet their burden to beat off a discrimination complaint through endless papering of files.

I wish we were more honest.

Thanks so much for posting this! I'm the PP black female mom in big law and really needed this. I'm in the midst of the storm right now and am glad to hear that you landed very well. I'm looking for my next opportunity now (in-house or gov) and this gives me hope.

PP here. If you can swing it, clerking is a fantastic bridge. I used my severance to help deal with the pay cut and get adjusted to the lower salary. I've spent several years in the 100-125K range until I went in house. I now am in the 250K-300K range about 15 years in.

I obviously took a hit for about 10 years where I wasn't making much. But I did actually have the time to fall in love (an impossibility when I was working 70 hour weeks and traveling tons at biglaw), have two kids, and build my life up. In a strange way, I found my way to a great life. But I won't lie, it was a hard year. I spent a lot of my clerkship year working with a therapist to move forward in a healthy way.

Good luck, PP.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This thread is interesting.

I am a POC who started my career in Big Law. At the time, there was only one POC partner and he wielded significant power because he had been high up at DOJ and was a tremendous rainmaker. While I was there, I was told a number of negative things about my ability and my future – one partner was especially nasty. It was demoralizing. Well POC partner told me that he learned early on that POC cannot make partner like others make partner. There are too many minefields for most associates, but especially women and POC, to come up through the ranks. We need to do some time in BigLaw, go elsewhere (government or in-house), forge relationships and come back with our books in tow. Well, I did my time there and moved on. I am now the Dep GC at a medium/large company and I control a $30 million outside counsel budget – nothing huge but enough to get some attention from Big Law partners. My internal clients are diverse and very smart – a legal team that is not diverse would not be an easy sell.

I do not “insist” on diversity with respect to my outside counsel but I do ask if I do not see any. If I get a BS answer, it is likely that the firm will not get my business. Having been where I have been and working with diverse clients, I KNOW that the definition of “qualified” is not a static definition. I also know that there are a lot of qualified lawyers who do not fit the Big Law mold.

Good for you. (Another POC attorney, in-house here).

I wish this message was clearer to me when I was a younger black big law associate. I wouldn't have taken the criticism so hard and blamed myself. I did everything I could to make it work, billed tons of hours, wrote briefs, was the first in my class to take a deposition for a paying client, but I got the bad review during my 4th year that I "lacked attention to detail" and would need to find another job. No negative feedback from the partners and my firm had a policy that we couldn't read the reviews because the partners wouldn't be candid. It was a big firm in Chicago.

It was the only thing I've ever "failed" at achieving. To law school, law review, etc. Ironically, it was for the best, because like y'all, I went into the government (clerking then SEC), worked my way up, and am an in-house attorney who's doing incredibly well (7 years in house).

It was a difficult few years and it took time to get my confidence back. I'll never forget during my last day I demanded and made copies of my reviews. They were full of things I've never heard about, events I was never involved in...just lies. I didn't fight it, but left, clerked, and realized that even if I did something, the negative attention would be career suicide and firms aren't dumb...there's plenty of ways to meet their burden to beat off a discrimination complaint through endless papering of files.

I wish we were more honest.

Thanks so much for posting this! I'm the PP black female mom in big law and really needed this. I'm in the midst of the storm right now and am glad to hear that you landed very well. I'm looking for my next opportunity now (in-house or gov) and this gives me hope.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This thread is interesting.

I am a POC who started my career in Big Law. At the time, there was only one POC partner and he wielded significant power because he had been high up at DOJ and was a tremendous rainmaker. While I was there, I was told a number of negative things about my ability and my future – one partner was especially nasty. It was demoralizing. Well POC partner told me that he learned early on that POC cannot make partner like others make partner. There are too many minefields for most associates, but especially women and POC, to come up through the ranks. We need to do some time in BigLaw, go elsewhere (government or in-house), forge relationships and come back with our books in tow. Well, I did my time there and moved on. I am now the Dep GC at a medium/large company and I control a $30 million outside counsel budget – nothing huge but enough to get some attention from Big Law partners. My internal clients are diverse and very smart – a legal team that is not diverse would not be an easy sell.

I do not “insist” on diversity with respect to my outside counsel but I do ask if I do not see any. If I get a BS answer, it is likely that the firm will not get my business. Having been where I have been and working with diverse clients, I KNOW that the definition of “qualified” is not a static definition. I also know that there are a lot of qualified lawyers who do not fit the Big Law mold.

Good for you. (Another POC attorney, in-house here).

I wish this message was clearer to me when I was a younger black big law associate. I wouldn't have taken the criticism so hard and blamed myself. I did everything I could to make it work, billed tons of hours, wrote briefs, was the first in my class to take a deposition for a paying client, but I got the bad review during my 4th year that I "lacked attention to detail" and would need to find another job. No negative feedback from the partners and my firm had a policy that we couldn't read the reviews because the partners wouldn't be candid. It was a big firm in Chicago.

It was the only thing I've ever "failed" at achieving. To law school, law review, etc. Ironically, it was for the best, because like y'all, I went into the government (clerking then SEC), worked my way up, and am an in-house attorney who's doing incredibly well (7 years in house).

It was a difficult few years and it took time to get my confidence back. I'll never forget during my last day I demanded and made copies of my reviews. They were full of things I've never heard about, events I was never involved in...just lies. I didn't fight it, but left, clerked, and realized that even if I did something, the negative attention would be career suicide and firms aren't dumb...there's plenty of ways to meet their burden to beat off a discrimination complaint through endless papering of files.

I wish we were more honest.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a big law client ability trumps diversity. We too have to deal with diversity challenges but when you are paying absurd hourly rates you expect the best.

You can have the best and still have diversity. Surely you aren't saying that having the best means that you have an all white team?

Sometimes the best teams aren't diverse. Soldiers, engineers, and to a certain extent, police officers tend not to be very diverse. The team will be weaker if you force diversity in certain jobs. They typically lower standards when they push diversity, so the outcome isn't really that surprising.

Maybe one day people will talk about REAL DIVERSITY, which has more to do with your way of thinking that is shaped by your experiences, and not your skin color.

Angry white dude is angry that being a white dude no longer makes him a success just for being mediocre.

As opposed being mediocre and propped up by affirmative action?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This thread is interesting.

I am a POC who started my career in Big Law. At the time, there was only one POC partner and he wielded significant power because he had been high up at DOJ and was a tremendous rainmaker. While I was there, I was told a number of negative things about my ability and my future – one partner was especially nasty. It was demoralizing. Well POC partner told me that he learned early on that POC cannot make partner like others make partner. There are too many minefields for most associates, but especially women and POC, to come up through the ranks. We need to do some time in BigLaw, go elsewhere (government or in-house), forge relationships and come back with our books in tow. Well, I did my time there and moved on. I am now the Dep GC at a medium/large company and I control a $30 million outside counsel budget – nothing huge but enough to get some attention from Big Law partners. My internal clients are diverse and very smart – a legal team that is not diverse would not be an easy sell.

I do not “insist” on diversity with respect to my outside counsel but I do ask if I do not see any. If I get a BS answer, it is likely that the firm will not get my business. Having been where I have been and working with diverse clients, I KNOW that the definition of “qualified” is not a static definition. I also know that there are a lot of qualified lawyers who do not fit the Big Law mold.

Good for you. (Another POC attorney, in-house here).

Anonymous wrote:This thread is interesting.

I am a POC who started my career in Big Law. At the time, there was only one POC partner and he wielded significant power because he had been high up at DOJ and was a tremendous rainmaker. While I was there, I was told a number of negative things about my ability and my future – one partner was especially nasty. It was demoralizing. Well POC partner told me that he learned early on that POC cannot make partner like others make partner. There are too many minefields for most associates, but especially women and POC, to come up through the ranks. We need to do some time in BigLaw, go elsewhere (government or in-house), forge relationships and come back with our books in tow. Well, I did my time there and moved on. I am now the Dep GC at a medium/large company and I control a $30 million outside counsel budget – nothing huge but enough to get some attention from Big Law partners. My internal clients are diverse and very smart – a legal team that is not diverse would not be an easy sell.

I do not “insist” on diversity with respect to my outside counsel but I do ask if I do not see any. If I get a BS answer, it is likely that the firm will not get my business. Having been where I have been and working with diverse clients, I KNOW that the definition of “qualified” is not a static definition. I also know that there are a lot of qualified lawyers who do not fit the Big Law mold.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, but if a white guy is not selected for an important project because the client wants a certain number of women/POC, how is this not race/sex discrimination? Unfortunately the flip side of inclusion is sometimes exclusion.

Because white guys aren't a protected class. I hope you aren't a lawyer. SMH.

The S Ct long ago ruled exactly the opposite of what you just said and shook your head about. Gosh are you dumb.

Citation?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, but if a white guy is not selected for an important project because the client wants a certain number of women/POC, how is this not race/sex discrimination? Unfortunately the flip side of inclusion is sometimes exclusion.

Because white guys aren't a protected class. I hope you aren't a lawyer. SMH.

The S Ct long ago ruled exactly the opposite of what you just said and shook your head about. Gosh are you dumb.

Citation?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, but if a white guy is not selected for an important project because the client wants a certain number of women/POC, how is this not race/sex discrimination? Unfortunately the flip side of inclusion is sometimes exclusion.

Because white guys aren't a protected class. I hope you aren't a lawyer. SMH.

The S Ct long ago ruled exactly the opposite of what you just said and shook your head about. Gosh are you dumb.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm went to big law after a federal appellate clerkship.

I am a white woman.

I have noticed it, as well, especially with black attorneys (asian attorneys at my firm are treated well) and women, particularly those with children. They are told that their research and writing skills are mediocre by partners and while not let go, pushed/encouraged out -- after we spent a lot of money and resources recruiting them. It's confusing to me.

We are great at recruiting diversity, but then seem to do everything to destroy it.

I stay because I have a long-term view but I've been yelled at, told I was worthless, explicitly told that there's no partnership for me, received comments that I don't "look" the part of the firm, criticized for so-called mediocre work. It's some sort of hazing process where you need to work twice as hard and constantly promise against having children if you are a woman. After all the threats of my job being at risk and multiple bad reviews by partners who dislike me but love to make me work on weekends, I haven't been fired. It's been 3 years.

Partner here in a DC (branch) big law office.

Honestly, I think women who have kids and black associates (in particularly) are completely, utterly screwed in big law. They can't win for trying. Most figure out this fairly quickly, take the money/maternity leave and quit. But others are truly treated poorly.

When this report came out (http://www.blueprintjd.org/diversity/the-myth-that-black-lawyers-cant-write/), I asked my previous firm where I was a partner and the response was basically either silence or some justification saying this stuff never happens, HERE.

I lateraled because I'm a mercenary who looks out for his own bottom line and got a better deal at my current spot. But it's like unsaid, but yeah.

For black associates, I'd be honest. Big law isn't a good place. People don't want anyone (black or white) to be successful beyond making them looking good to their own clients (but don't get too close and try to poach). And like the PP said, firms are always looking for ways to cull the herd and reduce staffing as associates move up. The easiest way is to just claim black associates suck as a general rule and to bitch about their work product (which honestly is basically the same garbage untrained white associates turn in). The difference is the response to the garbage. You are more likely to get positive feedback and coaching if you're a white male. Then the white associate moves up, begins to take on more responsibility, develops, etc. For the black associate, you're shown the door before any of this happens. Rinse and repeat, complain about lack of qualified candidates, blah blah. A similar deal happens to women who take too many maternity leaves.

The good black attorneys are, indeed, doing well at DOJ and other places from what I've seen (I work in white collar/FCPA). It seems they finally get support and training and move up in the profession there.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a big law client ability trumps diversity. We too have to deal with diversity challenges but when you are paying absurd hourly rates you expect the best.

You can have the best and still have diversity. Surely you aren't saying that having the best means that you have an all white team?

Sometimes the best teams aren't diverse. Soldiers, engineers, and to a certain extent, police officers tend not to be very diverse. The team will be weaker if you force diversity in certain jobs. They typically lower standards when they push diversity, so the outcome isn't really that surprising.

Maybe one day people will talk about REAL DIVERSITY, which has more to do with your way of thinking that is shaped by your experiences, and not your skin color.

Angry white dude is angry that being a white dude no longer makes him a success just for being mediocre.

As opposed being mediocre and propped up by affirmative action?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a big law client ability trumps diversity. We too have to deal with diversity challenges but when you are paying absurd hourly rates you expect the best.

You can have the best and still have diversity. Surely you aren't saying that having the best means that you have an all white team?

Sometimes the best teams aren't diverse. Soldiers, engineers, and to a certain extent, police officers tend not to be very diverse. The team will be weaker if you force diversity in certain jobs. They typically lower standards when they push diversity, so the outcome isn't really that surprising.

Maybe one day people will talk about REAL DIVERSITY, which has more to do with your way of thinking that is shaped by your experiences, and not your skin color.

Angry white dude is angry that being a white dude no longer makes him a success just for being mediocre.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, but if a white guy is not selected for an important project because the client wants a certain number of women/POC, how is this not race/sex discrimination? Unfortunately the flip side of inclusion is sometimes exclusion.

Because white guys aren't a protected class. I hope you aren't a lawyer. SMH.