Anonymous
Post 09/01/2017 11:12     Subject: could West Potomac become a Marshall in 10 years?
Oh good
The IB cost-analysis crazies have arrived
Anonymous
Post 09/01/2017 10:59     Subject: Re:could West Potomac become a Marshall in 10 years?
We lived in Belle Haven, but made a decision to move to Fairfax. It wasn't the schools. It's the disconnect that a lot of people have around there. I think the whole push toward private school wasn't something we were interested in and I found that the community seemed more insular and "exclusive" and less welcoming. It wasn't the Belle View elementary community, for example. It was Belle Haven, the country club, your private school, etc. It just felt off to me.

There was a lot of "people outside of Belle Haven" walking around posts on the list serve that I found weird, too. People take walks. It's not a gated community.

We rented for two years with the thought we would buy in the neighborhood. My job was in old town so the commute was perfect. Well, my company moved to Reston and that went out of the window. We actually like Fairfax quite a bit. We're near Fairfax City and it seems much more community based -- including the schools. It doesn't hurt that the schools are great and the housing is cheaper and the commute is a breeze.
Anonymous
Post 09/01/2017 09:21     Subject: Re:could West Potomac become a Marshall in 10 years?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:While the cost is an issue, a bigger issue is that kids in IB schools aren't necessarily taking the IB classes.


If the issue is improving the relative standing of various schools, the location/logistics of IB schools in NoVa provides some good insight.

1. An IB school surrounded by AP schools does well; even though AP is more popular overall, the ratio of AP to IB schools implies the IB school will be a net beneficiary in terms of pupil placements (and students who pupil place, on average, are higher-achieving kids). Examples; Marshall, South Lakes.

2. An IB school that also offers AP as well does well if surrounding schools are only allowed to offer AP. Example: Washington-Lee (which benefits at Yorktown's expense).

3. An IB in a small, wealthy enclave does well, because the SES demographics matter more to buyers/parents than whether the school offers IB or AP. Example: George Mason.

4. IB schools clustered together in poorer areas languish in comparative terms, particularly if students there can pupil place to higher SES AP schools. Examples: Stuart, Lee, Mount Vernon, Annandale

As for OP's asking about West Potomac becoming a Marshall in 10 years, the answer is no, because Marshall benefits from its Tysons location and factor #1 above. But the good news is that it won't become a Lee or Mount Vernon, either.


This.
Anonymous
Post 09/01/2017 09:14     Subject: could West Potomac become a Marshall in 10 years?
You are forgetting Edison in your prior listing.

Lee, Edison, Mount Vernon -- all IB. FAR, FAR too much IB in Tamera's zone.... I wonder why she thinks it is just the bee's knees???
Anonymous
Post 09/01/2017 08:48     Subject: Re:could West Potomac become a Marshall in 10 years?
Anonymous wrote:While the cost is an issue, a bigger issue is that kids in IB schools aren't necessarily taking the IB classes.


If the issue is improving the relative standing of various schools, the location/logistics of IB schools in NoVa provides some good insight.

1. An IB school surrounded by AP schools does well; even though AP is more popular overall, the ratio of AP to IB schools implies the IB school will be a net beneficiary in terms of pupil placements (and students who pupil place, on average, are higher-achieving kids). Examples; Marshall, South Lakes.

2. An IB school that also offers AP as well does well if surrounding schools are only allowed to offer AP. Example: Washington-Lee (which benefits at Yorktown's expense).

3. An IB in a small, wealthy enclave does well, because the SES demographics matter more to buyers/parents than whether the school offers IB or AP. Example: George Mason.

4. IB schools clustered together in poorer areas languish in comparative terms, particularly if students there can pupil place to higher SES AP schools. Examples: Stuart, Lee, Mount Vernon, Annandale

As for OP's asking about West Potomac becoming a Marshall in 10 years, the answer is no, because Marshall benefits from its Tysons location and factor #1 above. But the good news is that it won't become a Lee or Mount Vernon, either.
Anonymous
Post 08/31/2017 22:36     Subject: Re:could West Potomac become a Marshall in 10 years?
While the cost is an issue, a bigger issue is that kids in IB schools aren't necessarily taking the IB classes.
Anonymous
Post 08/31/2017 19:57     Subject: Re:could West Potomac become a Marshall in 10 years?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:FCPS could also balance demographics by getting rid of IB. IB allows hundreds of higher SES kids in many of the poorer schools to pupil place to higher SES AP schools. It also allows higher SES kids zoned for Falls Church, which is AP, to pupil place to Marshall, which is IB.


I don't think you're going to find much support for that. Those motivated parents and kids who Pupil place to higher SES AP and IB schools are the ambitious kids that FCPS wants - they are primed to succeed and the parents will revolt if they can't find a way to access what the AAP and higher SES schools offer. "Balancing demographics" is not an FCPS objective (despite some cheap talk) - serving ambitious, motivated kids is a big concern, and avoiding confrontation with their motivated, activated parents is another.


People complain and then adjust. If FCPS was prepared to move neighborhoods from higher SES AP schools to South Lakes in 2008, over their protests, it certainly could decide that, say, getting rid of IB at Lee and Annandale (which would boost the enrollments at both schools and stem the flight to West Springfield and Woodson) makes sense. It would save money, and it's not like parents there who are currently pupil placing their kids to AP schools are going to show up and testify that their base schools should remain IB so they can avoid them.


It's true that people "complain and then adjust" - we just don't want the "adjustment" to be white flight to the higher SES districts - further exacerbating the quality differentials. I don't understand your logic that getting rid of IB at Lee and Annandale would boost enrollment - how many students pupil place out to AP schools? And are you sure that they would remain if both schools went to AP? I sense that might not come about. As to saving money - that's minuscule. I still can't get a straight answer from Senior Leadership but I can tell you that the Program Budget and Budget Questions have both reported that the differential is not great. You'd still have IB at Marshall, Robinson, Stuart and Edison.

To address the other posters - the opposition to IB is largely premised on cost (which is as much as $2M/yr in total per the Program Budget). IB credits are now recognized at most colleges and universities (and all the VA schools). It is a more demanding or limited program in the sense that the requirements are significant and preclude the flexibility that AP offers. One benefit that I think gets little attention (other than by the Administration) is the fact that the IB candidates are tested and the papers are graded offsite by third parties. This allows for a good comparison of student achievement, and by derivation, teacher performance, against a worldwide cohort of ambitious students. There are SOLs and the PACE assessments but the IB is the best comparator for assessing both students and teachers - this is valuable to keep tabs on the level of instruction for the ambitious and motivated, and is a good selling point for FCPS in attracting the parent with high ambitions for their student. There's been a lot of discussion about what it does for less motivated and ambitious (or less well supported) students and while I don't think the data can be strongly relied on - I sense there may not be a lot of benefit, and other approaches might be more appropriate.


The schools in FCPS with the highest SAT scores are primarily AP schools (and the top 6 are all AP schools), so there's little basis to assume that getting rid of IB at some schools would lead to any significant brain drain or white flight. In fact, most IB schools in FCPS historically have lost many students to AP schools, at least until more of the AP schools started closing to transfers. Annandale was roughly even last year, but has had substantial net out-placements in prior years, while Lee and Mount Vernon (both IB) had net out-placements of 87 and 105 students last year. Another factor to consider is that Asian students are the highest performing cohort in FCPS, and the highest performing Asian students are also at the AP schools.

Overall, familiarity with years of test scores and demographic data in FCPS tells me that having no more than 4 IB schools (Marshall, South Lakes, Robinson and Stuart) would be enough to meet the demand; save money; probably help Stuart by making it more of a regional IB center (as opposed to just one of multiple IB schools in southeastern Fairfax); and stem some of the pupil placements that exacerbate the FARMS rates and low test scores at other schools like Lee and Mount Vernon.

But I know that there are IB promoters out there who will defend it every time - even if the IB diploma rates at their schools remain in the single digits and other students might benefit more from AP or other approaches, they will claim IB is "progressive" because their own kid (usually white) is an IB diploma candidate. Those who wouldn't live in those districts because they only offer IB typically don't speak up, since they moved elsewhere and are less likely to chime in now.
Anonymous
Post 08/31/2017 19:28     Subject: Re:could West Potomac become a Marshall in 10 years?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:FCPS could also balance demographics by getting rid of IB. IB allows hundreds of higher SES kids in many of the poorer schools to pupil place to higher SES AP schools. It also allows higher SES kids zoned for Falls Church, which is AP, to pupil place to Marshall, which is IB.


I don't think you're going to find much support for that. Those motivated parents and kids who Pupil place to higher SES AP and IB schools are the ambitious kids that FCPS wants - they are primed to succeed and the parents will revolt if they can't find a way to access what the AAP and higher SES schools offer. "Balancing demographics" is not an FCPS objective (despite some cheap talk) - serving ambitious, motivated kids is a big concern, and avoiding confrontation with their motivated, activated parents is another.


People complain and then adjust. If FCPS was prepared to move neighborhoods from higher SES AP schools to South Lakes in 2008, over their protests, it certainly could decide that, say, getting rid of IB at Lee and Annandale (which would boost the enrollments at both schools and stem the flight to West Springfield and Woodson) makes sense. It would save money, and it's not like parents there who are currently pupil placing their kids to AP schools are going to show up and testify that their base schools should remain IB so they can avoid them.


It's true that people "complain and then adjust" - we just don't want the "adjustment" to be white flight to the higher SES districts - further exacerbating the quality differentials. I don't understand your logic that getting rid of IB at Lee and Annandale would boost enrollment - how many students pupil place out to AP schools? And are you sure that they would remain if both schools went to AP? I sense that might not come about. As to saving money - that's minuscule. I still can't get a straight answer from Senior Leadership but I can tell you that the Program Budget and Budget Questions have both reported that the differential is not great. You'd still have IB at Marshall, Robinson, Stuart and Edison.

To address the other posters - the opposition to IB is largely premised on cost (which is as much as $2M/yr in total per the Program Budget). IB credits are now recognized at most colleges and universities (and all the VA schools). It is a more demanding or limited program in the sense that the requirements are significant and preclude the flexibility that AP offers. One benefit that I think gets little attention (other than by the Administration) is the fact that the IB candidates are tested and the papers are graded offsite by third parties. This allows for a good comparison of student achievement, and by derivation, teacher performance, against a worldwide cohort of ambitious students. There are SOLs and the PACE assessments but the IB is the best comparator for assessing both students and teachers - this is valuable to keep tabs on the level of instruction for the ambitious and motivated, and is a good selling point for FCPS in attracting the parent with high ambitions for their student. There's been a lot of discussion about what it does for less motivated and ambitious (or less well supported) students and while I don't think the data can be strongly relied on - I sense there may not be a lot of benefit, and other approaches might be more appropriate.
Anonymous
Post 08/31/2017 19:25     Subject: could West Potomac become a Marshall in 10 years?
Anonymous wrote:The AP/IB thing is strange. In the much smaller school district where I went to high school, each of the high schools offered both AP and IB, and some kids got the IB diploma while most took AP classes. It seems that IB is somewhat expensive, but I don't see why it is only in a handful of high schools here in Fairfax. IMO, it should be in many/most/all of the high schools.

Allowing students to transfer to other high schools is a separate issue, I think, and giving students who need to escape a social situation a way out is a great part of the FCPS system.


There's a difference between allowing for transfers by students who truly "need to escape a social situation" and giving all students whose parents can transport them to an AP school with higher SES students (or IB school, although it's usually AP) an option not to attend the school for which they are zoned. The latter contributes substantially to the brain drain and lower SES profiles at multiple high schools in FCPS.

Anonymous
Post 08/31/2017 18:22     Subject: could West Potomac become a Marshall in 10 years?
The AP/IB thing is strange. In the much smaller school district where I went to high school, each of the high schools offered both AP and IB, and some kids got the IB diploma while most took AP classes. It seems that IB is somewhat expensive, but I don't see why it is only in a handful of high schools here in Fairfax. IMO, it should be in many/most/all of the high schools.

Allowing students to transfer to other high schools is a separate issue, I think, and giving students who need to escape a social situation a way out is a great part of the FCPS system.
Anonymous
Post 08/31/2017 18:17     Subject: could West Potomac become a Marshall in 10 years?
Daughter just graduated with the IB diploma. It is a lot more work than AP and better prepares the student for real college level work. I do r know why it is bashed so much here, but I know my daughter has a great experience and a solid education that prepared her for college with the IB program.
Anonymous
Post 08/31/2017 16:31     Subject: Re:could West Potomac become a Marshall in 10 years?
I agree. It would be hard to find a good argument for keeping IB at those schools.
Anonymous
Post 08/31/2017 15:11     Subject: Re:could West Potomac become a Marshall in 10 years?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:FCPS could also balance demographics by getting rid of IB. IB allows hundreds of higher SES kids in many of the poorer schools to pupil place to higher SES AP schools. It also allows higher SES kids zoned for Falls Church, which is AP, to pupil place to Marshall, which is IB.


I don't think you're going to find much support for that. Those motivated parents and kids who Pupil place to higher SES AP and IB schools are the ambitious kids that FCPS wants - they are primed to succeed and the parents will revolt if they can't find a way to access what the AAP and higher SES schools offer. "Balancing demographics" is not an FCPS objective (despite some cheap talk) - serving ambitious, motivated kids is a big concern, and avoiding confrontation with their motivated, activated parents is another.


People complain and then adjust. If FCPS was prepared to move neighborhoods from higher SES AP schools to South Lakes in 2008, over their protests, it certainly could decide that, say, getting rid of IB at Lee and Annandale (which would boost the enrollments at both schools and stem the flight to West Springfield and Woodson) makes sense. It would save money, and it's not like parents there who are currently pupil placing their kids to AP schools are going to show up and testify that their base schools should remain IB so they can avoid them.
Anonymous
Post 08/31/2017 14:50     Subject: Re:could West Potomac become a Marshall in 10 years?
Anonymous wrote:FCPS could also balance demographics by getting rid of IB. IB allows hundreds of higher SES kids in many of the poorer schools to pupil place to higher SES AP schools. It also allows higher SES kids zoned for Falls Church, which is AP, to pupil place to Marshall, which is IB.


I don't think you're going to find much support for that. Those motivated parents and kids who Pupil place to higher SES AP and IB schools are the ambitious kids that FCPS wants - they are primed to succeed and the parents will revolt if they can't find a way to access what the AAP and higher SES schools offer. "Balancing demographics" is not an FCPS objective (despite some cheap talk) - serving ambitious, motivated kids is a big concern, and avoiding confrontation with their motivated, activated parents is another.
Anonymous
Post 08/31/2017 09:14     Subject: Re:could West Potomac become a Marshall in 10 years?
FCPS could also balance demographics by getting rid of IB. IB allows hundreds of higher SES kids in many of the poorer schools to pupil place to higher SES AP schools. It also allows higher SES kids zoned for Falls Church, which is AP, to pupil place to Marshall, which is IB.