yes, biglaw has changed from what it was before the 2008 crash, but I don't see where automation is having an effect. it's clients demanding more for less money spent. automation can help a bit here, but in the long run isn't going to have a real effect. it's true that clients don't want to pay for first years to learn, but what is a biglaw firm going to do - not hire first years? they need midlevels and seniors and can only rely so much on hiring laterals from boutiques and midlaw.

How about hire first years but do not bill them out at exorbitant rates? As a GC, I am not going to pay $350/hr for Biglaw to teach a first year how to put together a transactional closing checklist as a "teaching exercise" when a half-decent paralegal can pull it together at less than half the rate in half the time. Biglaw needs to build training into its business model ---not just expect clients to pay full freight for first years who know NOTHING. I only pay for one lawyer at a meeting---don't put the partner on the call and have an associate sitting there in the background and then bill me $1000+/hr for both.

Both DH and I are 6 years out of law school (both Ivy and non-Ivy) and we only recommend someone go to law school if (1) they're sure they want to be a lawyer (researched/talked to lawyers so they really know what they do) and (2) someone else is paying. Frankly, law school tuition is a financial burden that doesn't have a reciprocal payout except n a very few cases and you have to assume you'll *not* be one of those cases.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No, most things can be done with legal zoom and rocket lawyer

You clearly have no idea what lawyers do. Our company spends millions a year for both its legal department and outside counsel who all perform work that can't be done by legal zoom or rocket lawyer.

Yeh sure but a lot of work has been automated

automation is hurting shitlawyers/solos who do wills and very low end work. it may ultimately have some impact on biglaw hiring, but probably not very much and may possibly have no real effect. while the type of bs doc review/basic research done by first year associates can be automated, biglaw still is going to have to hire classes of associates to move up the ranks to do the stuff that cannot be automated.

Nope, sorry. The bottom dropping out of the economy has had a big effect on legals spend and big law hiring. Clients aren't paying for your first years to cut their teeth any more, associate class sizes have shrunk quite a lot, and many law firms are looking at non-associate staffing models, many of which are 1099 arrangements and contract attorneys. Automation is actually helping the smaller firms compete with the big firms who are weight down with payroll, lease/infrastructure costs, and more committee bureaucracy that makes them less flexible and harder to retool. Firms that get the client business side and can effectively price fixed and other alterantive fee arrangements are also beating out big law, when big law can't adjust. Law is finally having to be run like a business rather than a blank-check for billable hours/services rendered -- look at how many large law firms have folded/imploded in the past five years. If you think that big law has felt no ill effects of the economy and automation, you are very, very out of touch with the business of law.

the only small firms that are competing with biglaw are elite boutiques. I'd love to see examples of those firms using automation. for the 99.5% of remaining small firms, they do shitlaw and they are the ones being affected by legalzoom and other similar products. not biglaw.

yes, biglaw has changed from what it was before the 2008 crash, but I don't see where automation is having an effect. it's clients demanding more for less money spent. automation can help a bit here, but in the long run isn't going to have a real effect. it's true that clients don't want to pay for first years to learn, but what is a biglaw firm going to do - not hire first years? they need midlevels and seniors and can only rely so much on hiring laterals from boutiques and midlaw.

Anonymous wrote:OP here. You all confirmed my fears. I don't imagine her getting into a T10, maybe a T14, but probably somewhere in the 20s. She's a biology major at an okay public school so her grades are probably not up to par. Does it help that she's a STEM major? I feel like she's being too idealistic about this and her parents are being too encouraging. Can I send them articles or is that too passive aggressive?

How do you know her grades aren't good? One can get good grades as a bio major at a state school. And there's no point in raining on the parade yet. She hasn't even applied yet! It doesn't sound like she's even taken the LSAT yet.

And yes, sending them articles is really passive-aggressive. The next time you talk to them, ask questions about her research into schools and employment opportunities, ask if she's done informational interviews with attorneys practicing in the field. If she hasn't, encourage her to do so, so she has a better idea of what's involved and whether it's what she wants to do. If she's totally clueless, worry then. But if she's taking it seriously, she'll be fine.

Anonymous wrote:She can apply at the uspto, go to part time law and have the uspto cover the majority of the law school cost.

The USPTO does not have a lot of openings outside of EE/CS. From what I hear from my neighbor (manager there), the applicant pool is increasingly filled with MS/JD candidates and applicants from boutique IP firms.

But yeah, if she can get in its a great salary. Neighbors are a PTO couple and probably make 275-300k HHI.

Anonymous wrote:OP here. You all confirmed my fears. I don't imagine her getting into a T10, maybe a T14, but probably somewhere in the 20s. She's a biology major at an okay public school so her grades are probably not up to par. Does it help that she's a STEM major? I feel like she's being too idealistic about this and her parents are being too encouraging. Can I send them articles or is that too passive aggressive?

Someone who knows feel free to chime in here but...are Biology majors eligible to sit for the patent bar? If so that should help her somewhat since you don't need tip top grades to get a good job post law school.

I think it will depend on how she does on the LSAT. Less people are going to school now so the median LSAT score at even the top schools is dropping. But also...less people are going to law school because they know about the post grad job situation.

If she can get into the T10 school then she should consider it. But even then...unless your sister is paying paying off that much debt even with a high paid job is nothing to sneeze at. However, if she gets a full ride at a lower tier school then I say go for it. There are a ton of interesting low-paid jobs in law and if she is considering doing the law school thing she probably doesn't have anything else lined up anyway.

For your part, I would def not get involved because there is no need to prematurely put in your two cents before she even gets in there. It will just make you come across as negative.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No, most things can be done with legal zoom and rocket lawyer

You clearly have no idea what lawyers do. Our company spends millions a year for both its legal department and outside counsel who all perform work that can't be done by legal zoom or rocket lawyer.

Yeh sure but a lot of work has been automated

automation is hurting shitlawyers/solos who do wills and very low end work. it may ultimately have some impact on biglaw hiring, but probably not very much and may possibly have no real effect. while the type of bs doc review/basic research done by first year associates can be automated, biglaw still is going to have to hire classes of associates to move up the ranks to do the stuff that cannot be automated.

Nope, sorry. The bottom dropping out of the economy has had a big effect on legals spend and big law hiring. Clients aren't paying for your first years to cut their teeth any more, associate class sizes have shrunk quite a lot, and many law firms are looking at non-associate staffing models, many of which are 1099 arrangements and contract attorneys. Automation is actually helping the smaller firms compete with the big firms who are weight down with payroll, lease/infrastructure costs, and more committee bureaucracy that makes them less flexible and harder to retool. Firms that get the client business side and can effectively price fixed and other alterantive fee arrangements are also beating out big law, when big law can't adjust. Law is finally having to be run like a business rather than a blank-check for billable hours/services rendered -- look at how many large law firms have folded/imploded in the past five years. If you think that big law has felt no ill effects of the economy and automation, you are very, very out of touch with the business of law.

I would encourage her to talk to attorneys who work in the field she's interested in, on both the nonprofit and corporate side. Find out what they actually do, what they like and don't like about the field. Get their advice.

For law school, study hard to get the best LSAT possible. Go T14 or a lower-ranked school that will give her substantial scholarship. Don't go into big debt for a lower-ranked school, though. Do due diligence on employment stats and bar passage rates, etc., and read the fine print closely. Schools have been known to cook the numbers, so don't take them at face value.

Do research schools that are especially strong in healthcare law, which may not be the same at the T14. Schools with very strong programs in the field will have better networking opportunities, clinical opportunities, etc. Focus classes, internships, etc., on healthcare and related law.

Law school isn't for everyone, and it's an expensive babysitter if you just don't know what you really want to do. But if your niece is focused, informed, and prepared, it can be great.

Anonymous wrote:She doesn't need to go to a top ten school if she wants to do healthcare law or advocacy. The trick to getting a job will be experience in that field and/or personal contacts. She should connect with people who actually have the kind of job she wants and talk to them about their career path. Then she should seize opportunities to get related job skills for her resume (primarily through internships).

Networking will be critical. She should glue herself to her health law professors and join related sections of the ABA, stats and local bars as well as related professional associations for hospital administrators and public health professionals---and attend events. But actual jobs/internships in the field are critical.

Bit don't listen to these other posters. You only need to be top ten if you want to land at a big firm. She doesn't.

This plus the other advice of getting into a less prestigious school with some significant scholarship money. The top 10 schools are only for those who are fixated on unicorn/top BigLaw/Supreme Court Clerkships and those who have no idea what to do right after law school. Since it sounds like she has an idea, it's much more important for her to establish those networks early on during law school. Having said that, it would be huge to be in city, such as DC, with employers with whom you could do an internship during the school year to build that network and resume.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Definitely does not help that she's a STEM major, that really has nothing to do with law school or the skills valued there. That's a real switch in interests - why does she want to go to law school?

I disagree. Many STEM grads do great in law school, and law schools often recruit them.

I know some very successful patent lawyers who have undergrad STEM degrees.

Did you read the rest of the thread?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Definitely does not help that she's a STEM major, that really has nothing to do with law school or the skills valued there. That's a real switch in interests - why does she want to go to law school?

I disagree. Many STEM grads do great in law school, and law schools often recruit them.

I know some very successful patent lawyers who have undergrad STEM degrees.

Anonymous wrote:She can apply at the uspto, go to part time law and have the uspto cover the majority of the law school cost.

not only that, she can "work from home" 100% of the time!

She can apply at the uspto, go to part time law and have the uspto cover the majority of the law school cost.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:. Can I send them articles or is that too passive aggressive?

Not appropriate unless you're a lawyer too, and even then you're pushing it.

I would only recommend law school if:
1. She really wants to be a lawyer and has an understanding of what that means.
2. She gets into a top 15 school or a top 80 school with a free ride.
3. She has realistic ideas of career prospects -- no dreams of fancy international law career, no sports law, etc.

-- law school professor

I agree. Maybe encourage your niece to work a little in the field before going to law school. With a STEM background, maybe paralegal at a firm that does intellectual property work? Or an investigator at a public defender's office? Intern in the legal department of an environment related non-profit?

Why would she do any of that if she wants to do advocacy/policy or hospital/healthcare admin?

Anonymous wrote:OP, how is any of this your business?

You won't be paying for it. It's not your child.

I'm not a lawyer. I have friends who went to law school. For some, it has worked out (none of them are Biglaw). For others, they changed careers. None of them are unemployed or not doing well.

If you discourage her and she ends up regretting *not* going to law school, you will be blamed.

She's an adult. She can make her own decisions. Don't try to micromanage someone else's life.

She's not an adult. She's an underperforming student who's afraid to enter the real work world, and therefore she's hoping to delay it by hiding out at school for another 3+ years, without a plan of what she can realistically do with her degrees.
I know far too many people who keep "pursuing their education" with no end goal or plan to support themselves.
Your niece will still be living with her parents at age 30, with a mountain of debt and a job making $45K.
I'd tell my brother or sister this if it were my niece