Anonymous wrote:Greed: like $60 million dollars for 2 books?

How does that make sense?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When you can't call the man who spent 8 years insisting that the first black President wasn't born in the US a racist without people dismissing you as a far-left liberal loon...exactly how far do you think a discussion calling Republicans greedy is going to go?

What does insisting that a person wasn't born in the U.S. have to do with racism?

I liked Obama, and voted for him, and I don't care where he was born, but I've honestly wondered the same thing. I keep seeing people just reflexively call birtherism "racist." It just seems symptomatic of the increasingly broad overuse of the term to label basically any stupid comment that a white male says. Birtherism may have been wrong and pointless, but it wasn't racist.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm the PP who originally brought up birtherism = racism, and I have not participated in this discussion since. The ongoing back-and-forth in these threads, however, proves my point. There is nothing you can do to convince people who are determined that birtherism, like so many other insane criticisms of Obama, was about anything but race.

It's been documented political strategy (based on recordings from the political strategists who developed them) to translate underlying racial animosity into policies and initiatives that do not overtly meet the criteria of calling someone the n-word, but to any POC are so clearly racist. And now, we've come full circle, because the anti-PC "movement" has allowed for subtle, indirect racism and then okayed calling anyone who points it out a "whiner, snowflake". It's pretty brilliant strategy, and I have no idea how to challenge it. I think it means going back to focusing on outcomes, policies, and demands instead of attitudes. Attitudes also have to change, but MLK Jr focused on jobs and voting rights for black people, not erasing racism from the people's hearts.

BLM has rightly identified the criminal justice reform as the most pressing issue of the day, but focusing racially motivated police brutality is not helping their cause, IMHO. Not because anything they are saying is untrue, but because it's getting them into an unwinnable debate about what people's inner motivations are instead of focusing specifically on the needed reforms. There is enough outrage in the black community and other supportive communities to win policy change without convincing people who are incentivized not to be convinced.

There's another thread trying to downplay racism and hate crimes, i.e. claiming "most" are hoaxes or false flags, just because in the last 6 months have been a few of the 1000 plus documented by SPLC since the election turned out to be faked - despite the fact that in just the last couple of weeks alone there have been as many or more that turned out to be quite real and quite vicious (stabbings, et cetera), with a half dozen links about the arrested perps posted.

Too much of this "I'm not a racist but..." going on. If you truly aren't a racist then stop right there. Stop defending and providing cover for those who are.

On its face, the birtherism theory has nothing to do with race. But that fiction keeps getting repeated so no one stops to think about it. There is real racism in this country, in education, criminal justice, and the job market. When you get caught up in the reverse conspiracy theory about the birtherist motives, you lose credibility when you call out genuine racism. Get to know more people from middle America.

Obama does not need you to defend him against silly stuff. Just point to the fact that he was president for two terms. That settled it, didn't it?

Um, excuse me, but I grew up in middle America. And some of the people I knew there were indeed outright racists with zero doubt about it. This makes me wonder if you actually know people in middle America. That's the thing about you apologists, you want to claim we don't know what we're talking about. Sorry but we do know what we're talking about. You want to whine about "coastal elites" who don't know and look down on "flyover country." We were born and raised and came from "flyover country". A huge percentage of people I know in DC originally came from places like Idaho, Colorado, Kansas and elsewhere. Conservatives keep repeating a false narrative that just doesn't wash.

Ok, good. You are right. I have not lived in middle America for over a decade and have spent most of my life on the East Coast. Maybe you can gather some anecdotal evidence. Find some of the racists you knew growing up. See if any of them were aware of and prescribed to the birtherism theory. Then ask if their racial attitudes caused them to believe that President Obama's mother traveled overseas when she was pregnant, gave birth to the future president, and then later forged his birth certificate. I have trouble with belief in the last part being associated with racism. You should not rule out the possibility that the racists you knew were also incredibly easy to fool with any sort of official sounding idea, scheme or theory coming from someone they trust.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm the PP who originally brought up birtherism = racism, and I have not participated in this discussion since. The ongoing back-and-forth in these threads, however, proves my point. There is nothing you can do to convince people who are determined that birtherism, like so many other insane criticisms of Obama, was about anything but race.

It's been documented political strategy (based on recordings from the political strategists who developed them) to translate underlying racial animosity into policies and initiatives that do not overtly meet the criteria of calling someone the n-word, but to any POC are so clearly racist. And now, we've come full circle, because the anti-PC "movement" has allowed for subtle, indirect racism and then okayed calling anyone who points it out a "whiner, snowflake". It's pretty brilliant strategy, and I have no idea how to challenge it. I think it means going back to focusing on outcomes, policies, and demands instead of attitudes. Attitudes also have to change, but MLK Jr focused on jobs and voting rights for black people, not erasing racism from the people's hearts.

BLM has rightly identified the criminal justice reform as the most pressing issue of the day, but focusing racially motivated police brutality is not helping their cause, IMHO. Not because anything they are saying is untrue, but because it's getting them into an unwinnable debate about what people's inner motivations are instead of focusing specifically on the needed reforms. There is enough outrage in the black community and other supportive communities to win policy change without convincing people who are incentivized not to be convinced.

There's another thread trying to downplay racism and hate crimes, i.e. claiming "most" are hoaxes or false flags, just because in the last 6 months have been a few of the 1000 plus documented by SPLC since the election turned out to be faked - despite the fact that in just the last couple of weeks alone there have been as many or more that turned out to be quite real and quite vicious (stabbings, et cetera), with a half dozen links about the arrested perps posted.

Too much of this "I'm not a racist but..." going on. If you truly aren't a racist then stop right there. Stop defending and providing cover for those who are.

On its face, the birtherism theory has nothing to do with race. But that fiction keeps getting repeated so no one stops to think about it. There is real racism in this country, in education, criminal justice, and the job market. When you get caught up in the reverse conspiracy theory about the birtherist motives, you lose credibility when you call out genuine racism. Get to know more people from middle America.

Obama does not need you to defend him against silly stuff. Just point to the fact that he was president for two terms. That settled it, didn't it?

Um, excuse me, but I grew up in middle America. And some of the people I knew there were indeed outright racists with zero doubt about it. This makes me wonder if you actually know people in middle America. That's the thing about you apologists, you want to claim we don't know what we're talking about. Sorry but we do know what we're talking about. You want to whine about "coastal elites" who don't know and look down on "flyover country." We were born and raised and came from "flyover country". A huge percentage of people I know in DC originally came from places like Idaho, Colorado, Kansas and elsewhere. Conservatives keep repeating a false narrative that just doesn't wash.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm the PP who originally brought up birtherism = racism, and I have not participated in this discussion since. The ongoing back-and-forth in these threads, however, proves my point. There is nothing you can do to convince people who are determined that birtherism, like so many other insane criticisms of Obama, was about anything but race.

It's been documented political strategy (based on recordings from the political strategists who developed them) to translate underlying racial animosity into policies and initiatives that do not overtly meet the criteria of calling someone the n-word, but to any POC are so clearly racist. And now, we've come full circle, because the anti-PC "movement" has allowed for subtle, indirect racism and then okayed calling anyone who points it out a "whiner, snowflake". It's pretty brilliant strategy, and I have no idea how to challenge it. I think it means going back to focusing on outcomes, policies, and demands instead of attitudes. Attitudes also have to change, but MLK Jr focused on jobs and voting rights for black people, not erasing racism from the people's hearts.

BLM has rightly identified the criminal justice reform as the most pressing issue of the day, but focusing racially motivated police brutality is not helping their cause, IMHO. Not because anything they are saying is untrue, but because it's getting them into an unwinnable debate about what people's inner motivations are instead of focusing specifically on the needed reforms. There is enough outrage in the black community and other supportive communities to win policy change without convincing people who are incentivized not to be convinced.

There's another thread trying to downplay racism and hate crimes, i.e. claiming "most" are hoaxes or false flags, just because in the last 6 months have been a few of the 1000 plus documented by SPLC since the election turned out to be faked - despite the fact that in just the last couple of weeks alone there have been as many or more that turned out to be quite real and quite vicious (stabbings, et cetera), with a half dozen links about the arrested perps posted.

Too much of this "I'm not a racist but..." going on. If you truly aren't a racist then stop right there. Stop defending and providing cover for those who are.

On its face, the birtherism theory has nothing to do with race. But that fiction keeps getting repeated so no one stops to think about it. There is real racism in this country, in education, criminal justice, and the job market. When you get caught up in the reverse conspiracy theory about the birtherist motives, you lose credibility when you call out genuine racism. Get to know more people from middle America.

Obama does not need you to defend him against silly stuff. Just point to the fact that he was president for two terms. That settled it, didn't it?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm the PP who originally brought up birtherism = racism, and I have not participated in this discussion since. The ongoing back-and-forth in these threads, however, proves my point. There is nothing you can do to convince people who are determined that birtherism, like so many other insane criticisms of Obama, was about anything but race.

It's been documented political strategy (based on recordings from the political strategists who developed them) to translate underlying racial animosity into policies and initiatives that do not overtly meet the criteria of calling someone the n-word, but to any POC are so clearly racist. And now, we've come full circle, because the anti-PC "movement" has allowed for subtle, indirect racism and then okayed calling anyone who points it out a "whiner, snowflake". It's pretty brilliant strategy, and I have no idea how to challenge it. I think it means going back to focusing on outcomes, policies, and demands instead of attitudes. Attitudes also have to change, but MLK Jr focused on jobs and voting rights for black people, not erasing racism from the people's hearts.

BLM has rightly identified the criminal justice reform as the most pressing issue of the day, but focusing racially motivated police brutality is not helping their cause, IMHO. Not because anything they are saying is untrue, but because it's getting them into an unwinnable debate about what people's inner motivations are instead of focusing specifically on the needed reforms. There is enough outrage in the black community and other supportive communities to win policy change without convincing people who are incentivized not to be convinced.

There's another thread trying to downplay racism and hate crimes, i.e. claiming "most" are hoaxes or false flags, just because in the last 6 months have been a few of the 1000 plus documented by SPLC since the election turned out to be faked - despite the fact that in just the last couple of weeks alone there have been as many or more that turned out to be quite real and quite vicious (stabbings, et cetera), with a half dozen links about the arrested perps posted.

Too much of this "I'm not a racist but..." going on. If you truly aren't a racist then stop right there. Stop defending and providing cover for those who are.

On its face, the birtherism theory has nothing to do with race. But that fiction keeps getting repeated so no one stops to think about it. There is real racism in this country, in education, criminal justice, and the job market. When you get caught up in the reverse conspiracy theory about the birtherist motives, you lose credibility when you call out genuine racism. Get to know more people from middle America.

Obama does not need you to defend him against silly stuff. Just point to the fact that he was president for two terms. That settled it, didn't it?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm the PP who originally brought up birtherism = racism, and I have not participated in this discussion since. The ongoing back-and-forth in these threads, however, proves my point. There is nothing you can do to convince people who are determined that birtherism, like so many other insane criticisms of Obama, was about anything but race.

It's been documented political strategy (based on recordings from the political strategists who developed them) to translate underlying racial animosity into policies and initiatives that do not overtly meet the criteria of calling someone the n-word, but to any POC are so clearly racist. And now, we've come full circle, because the anti-PC "movement" has allowed for subtle, indirect racism and then okayed calling anyone who points it out a "whiner, snowflake". It's pretty brilliant strategy, and I have no idea how to challenge it. I think it means going back to focusing on outcomes, policies, and demands instead of attitudes. Attitudes also have to change, but MLK Jr focused on jobs and voting rights for black people, not erasing racism from the people's hearts.

BLM has rightly identified the criminal justice reform as the most pressing issue of the day, but focusing racially motivated police brutality is not helping their cause, IMHO. Not because anything they are saying is untrue, but because it's getting them into an unwinnable debate about what people's inner motivations are instead of focusing specifically on the needed reforms. There is enough outrage in the black community and other supportive communities to win policy change without convincing people who are incentivized not to be convinced.

There's another thread trying to downplay racism and hate crimes, i.e. claiming "most" are hoaxes or false flags, just because in the last 6 months have been a few of the 1000 plus documented by SPLC since the election turned out to be faked - despite the fact that in just the last couple of weeks alone there have been as many or more that turned out to be quite real and quite vicious (stabbings, et cetera), with a half dozen links about the arrested perps posted.

Too much of this "I'm not a racist but..." going on. If you truly aren't a racist then stop right there. Stop defending and providing cover for those who are.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Dumb conspiracy theories?"

Um, puh-f*ckin-leeze.

Again, compare:

1.) Barack Obama, black guy, with a foreign sounding name, born in the US, with evidence that he was born in the US, and zero credible evidence he wasn't. Per polling done a few years ago, fully 45% of Republicans believed he wasn't born in the US and thought his citizenship was a huge issue.

2.) Ted Cruz, white guy, with a foreign name (Cruz), NOT born in the US (born in Canada), authentic Canadian birth certificate produced, and yet virtually 0% of those exact same Republicans thought his citizenship was an issue.

Wanna explain that one to us?

Obama and Cruz are both bi-racial. And Cruz did face questions about his eligibility to run for President. It came up during one of the GOP debates. Cruz also had to sue to get onto the ballot in PA because a voter raised a question about whether he was a natural born citizen.

I have no idea why some conspiracy theories take off and others do not get very far in the public imagination.

As I understand it, the conspiracy theory about Obama was that his mother traveled outside the United States when she was pregnant with him and later forged his birth certificate to indicate he was born in the United States. What does that have to do with race?

The ancestors of most black Americans were involuntarily brought to the United States centuries ago. No one has questioned their citizenship since the 1860s. Jesse Jackson, Carol Moseley Braun, Al Sharpton, Herman Cain, and Dr. Ben Carson all ran for President without any issue about their eligibility to run.

Cruz saw NOTHING like what Obama had to deal with for his entire Presidency. Not to mention, that Cruz is the only one of the two who *actually was* born in a foreign country. Major double standard. Question the living crap out of the black guy but give the white guy a pass. Typical double standard. Typical profiling.

Obama did not seem threatened by birtherism at all. He told jokes about it. You do not need to protect him, even now. Obama made a lot of tough decisions as President, and is a strong man. It is condescending that mostly white liberals seem to feel like they have to look out for their guy and shield him from criticism or attacks. Obama can handle himself quite well.

Yes, Obama is a strong man and can take care of himself. But that said, no, that's not what it's about, your complaint misses the mark, that being that there is still a sizeable and significant issue of racism in America which does indeed still impact and harm many Americans, and all your complaint does is deflect from that.

I disagree. Calling something racism when it is clearly not deflects from actual racism.

Anonymous wrote:I'm the PP who originally brought up birtherism = racism, and I have not participated in this discussion since. The ongoing back-and-forth in these threads, however, proves my point. There is nothing you can do to convince people who are determined that birtherism, like so many other insane criticisms of Obama, was about anything but race.

It's been documented political strategy (based on recordings from the political strategists who developed them) to translate underlying racial animosity into policies and initiatives that do not overtly meet the criteria of calling someone the n-word, but to any POC are so clearly racist. And now, we've come full circle, because the anti-PC "movement" has allowed for subtle, indirect racism and then okayed calling anyone who points it out a "whiner, snowflake". It's pretty brilliant strategy, and I have no idea how to challenge it. I think it means going back to focusing on outcomes, policies, and demands instead of attitudes. Attitudes also have to change, but MLK Jr focused on jobs and voting rights for black people, not erasing racism from the people's hearts.

BLM has rightly identified the criminal justice reform as the most pressing issue of the day, but focusing racially motivated police brutality is not helping their cause, IMHO. Not because anything they are saying is untrue, but because it's getting them into an unwinnable debate about what people's inner motivations are instead of focusing specifically on the needed reforms. There is enough outrage in the black community and other supportive communities to win policy change without convincing people who are incentivized not to be convinced.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is there anything in the current GOP's platform designed around anything other than more dollars in the pocket of big business and billionaires?

I feel like all the conversation about policy minutiae (is climate change real? how do we fund high-risk pools?) are completely pointless, because the decisions are driven by cost-cutting for business and the possiblity of lower taxes for very rich people.

Let's just get it out in the open.

The Trump brand has always been about proud greed and our country somehow picked him to lead. Apparently, a lot of Americans are totally impressed by greed so they're fine with this platform too.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Dumb conspiracy theories?"

Um, puh-f*ckin-leeze.

Again, compare:

1.) Barack Obama, black guy, with a foreign sounding name, born in the US, with evidence that he was born in the US, and zero credible evidence he wasn't. Per polling done a few years ago, fully 45% of Republicans believed he wasn't born in the US and thought his citizenship was a huge issue.

2.) Ted Cruz, white guy, with a foreign name (Cruz), NOT born in the US (born in Canada), authentic Canadian birth certificate produced, and yet virtually 0% of those exact same Republicans thought his citizenship was an issue.

Wanna explain that one to us?

Obama and Cruz are both bi-racial. And Cruz did face questions about his eligibility to run for President. It came up during one of the GOP debates. Cruz also had to sue to get onto the ballot in PA because a voter raised a question about whether he was a natural born citizen.

I have no idea why some conspiracy theories take off and others do not get very far in the public imagination.

As I understand it, the conspiracy theory about Obama was that his mother traveled outside the United States when she was pregnant with him and later forged his birth certificate to indicate he was born in the United States. What does that have to do with race?

The ancestors of most black Americans were involuntarily brought to the United States centuries ago. No one has questioned their citizenship since the 1860s. Jesse Jackson, Carol Moseley Braun, Al Sharpton, Herman Cain, and Dr. Ben Carson all ran for President without any issue about their eligibility to run.

Cruz saw NOTHING like what Obama had to deal with for his entire Presidency. Not to mention, that Cruz is the only one of the two who *actually was* born in a foreign country. Major double standard. Question the living crap out of the black guy but give the white guy a pass. Typical double standard. Typical profiling.

Obama did not seem threatened by birtherism at all. He told jokes about it. You do not need to protect him, even now. Obama made a lot of tough decisions as President, and is a strong man. It is condescending that mostly white liberals seem to feel like they have to look out for their guy and shield him from criticism or attacks. Obama can handle himself quite well.

Yes, Obama is a strong man and can take care of himself. But that said, no, that's not what it's about, your complaint misses the mark, that being that there is still a sizeable and significant issue of racism in America which does indeed still impact and harm many Americans, and all your complaint does is deflect from that.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Dumb conspiracy theories?"

Um, puh-f*ckin-leeze.

Again, compare:

1.) Barack Obama, black guy, with a foreign sounding name, born in the US, with evidence that he was born in the US, and zero credible evidence he wasn't. Per polling done a few years ago, fully 45% of Republicans believed he wasn't born in the US and thought his citizenship was a huge issue.

2.) Ted Cruz, white guy, with a foreign name (Cruz), NOT born in the US (born in Canada), authentic Canadian birth certificate produced, and yet virtually 0% of those exact same Republicans thought his citizenship was an issue.

Wanna explain that one to us?

Obama and Cruz are both bi-racial. And Cruz did face questions about his eligibility to run for President. It came up during one of the GOP debates. Cruz also had to sue to get onto the ballot in PA because a voter raised a question about whether he was a natural born citizen.

I have no idea why some conspiracy theories take off and others do not get very far in the public imagination.

As I understand it, the conspiracy theory about Obama was that his mother traveled outside the United States when she was pregnant with him and later forged his birth certificate to indicate he was born in the United States. What does that have to do with race?

The ancestors of most black Americans were involuntarily brought to the United States centuries ago. No one has questioned their citizenship since the 1860s. Jesse Jackson, Carol Moseley Braun, Al Sharpton, Herman Cain, and Dr. Ben Carson all ran for President without any issue about their eligibility to run.

Hey, if this argument is what it takes for you to feel like your support for the birther movement didn't make you a racist, go on and be happy.

Pretty much everyone else who didn't support the birther movement believes it was racist, and there's actually a legitimate research study associating birther movement with racist attitudes. Feel free to cite your scientific study that counters it.

I did not support the birther movement nor do I think it was racist. Perhaps there was some xenophobia or otherism involved as other posters have pointed out. When people cry wolf about racism, it takes away the impact of using the term when it really applies.

The earlier poster was citing an article about a study in which someone set out to prove that racism was a factor in birtherism. That study has the same flaw as your post. If someone believes that Obama's mother traveled outside the United States when she was pregnant and later forged his birth certificate, that has nothing to do with Obama being black.

There also was a scientific study that concluded that vaccines caused autism. Lots of people believed that. Don't believe something just because it was in a study, or in a newspaper article about a study. There was a good article in slate.com about this recently. Lots of studies are garbage.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Dumb conspiracy theories?"

Um, puh-f*ckin-leeze.

Again, compare:

1.) Barack Obama, black guy, with a foreign sounding name, born in the US, with evidence that he was born in the US, and zero credible evidence he wasn't. Per polling done a few years ago, fully 45% of Republicans believed he wasn't born in the US and thought his citizenship was a huge issue.

2.) Ted Cruz, white guy, with a foreign name (Cruz), NOT born in the US (born in Canada), authentic Canadian birth certificate produced, and yet virtually 0% of those exact same Republicans thought his citizenship was an issue.

Wanna explain that one to us?

Obama and Cruz are both bi-racial. And Cruz did face questions about his eligibility to run for President. It came up during one of the GOP debates. Cruz also had to sue to get onto the ballot in PA because a voter raised a question about whether he was a natural born citizen.

I have no idea why some conspiracy theories take off and others do not get very far in the public imagination.

As I understand it, the conspiracy theory about Obama was that his mother traveled outside the United States when she was pregnant with him and later forged his birth certificate to indicate he was born in the United States. What does that have to do with race?

The ancestors of most black Americans were involuntarily brought to the United States centuries ago. No one has questioned their citizenship since the 1860s. Jesse Jackson, Carol Moseley Braun, Al Sharpton, Herman Cain, and Dr. Ben Carson all ran for President without any issue about their eligibility to run.

Cruz saw NOTHING like what Obama had to deal with for his entire Presidency. Not to mention, that Cruz is the only one of the two who *actually was* born in a foreign country. Major double standard. Question the living crap out of the black guy but give the white guy a pass. Typical double standard. Typical profiling.

Obama did not seem threatened by birtherism at all. He told jokes about it. You do not need to protect him, even now. Obama made a lot of tough decisions as President, and is a strong man. It is condescending that mostly white liberals seem to feel like they have to look out for their guy and shield him from criticism or attacks. Obama can handle himself quite well.