Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have no idea what the H1B scam supposedly is, but we struggle to find qualified candidates.

It's not that there aren't candidates who have a CS degree or something - there are plenty of mediocre candidates - there are very few quality ones. That's true whether we are talking us citizen or not. Generalizing a bit, we tend to see better poise and prescence from us citizens who are perhaps more culturally acclimated, but we see generally weaker mathematics and critical reasoning skills as well. On the flip side the the H1Bs tend to be on the stronger end of the bell curve in mathematics and related disciplines, and usually somewhat weaker on the presentation side.

We've never said "hey let's hire an h1b cause he's cheaper" or "let's hire a us citizen because they are a citizen". We hire those that pass the screening and testing process. Many citizens don't, many h1bs dont.

There seems to be this idea that because someone has completed a degree they are "entitled" to a job - or deserving of one - or because they've done a program they are equally qualified, but of course that's simply not the case. H1Bs exist because there's a desire to hire top talent, and some H1Bs - just like some citizens - are truly exceptional talent.

H1Bs are not being used to hire exceptional talent. Let us know more specifically what it would take to get hired by you. Stronger in mathematics, meaning what precisely?

You are partly correct and partly incorrect. Are there lots of low skilled h1b in IT? Yes, but there are also a good number of top talent on h1bs, too.

No way - most of the H1Bs I have worked with definitely lack critical thinking and strategic thinking skills. If you get to know any of them, you will find out in school those skills are not stressed and are not well regarded. This is the biggest hurdle we have when working with them.

Are you kidding me? You have an incredibly narrow view of H1Bs.

Take a look at the British A level exams for instance. They are 2 years of classes that culminate with exams. In courses like history the exam might say "Was Napoloen a military dictator or innnovator?" And expect you construct an argument from whatever you've read or learned. There are no set textbooks, none of this "the test will be on chapter 5 -7 , 9-12" crap you see in the US. How you do on the exam is heavily based on your ability to recall facts and figures and leverage them to think critically. In the US the question would be "In what year was Napoloen exiled to Elba"?

Physics a level exams require you pass written and practical tests, for instance you walk into a room and are handed an expirement to run, like say, prove the angular force on an object is less than X. You have to design the expirement yourself. Come up with how to structure it. Run it and record the results. Interpret them and then write your conclusions based on your analysis either supporting or refuting the hypothesis presented.

And this is in HIGH SCHOOL.

I've read a lot of ridiculous shit on this site but the idea that foreign countries don't prioritize critical thinking and reasoning in their academics might just be the dumbest yet.

Its the equivalent of day labor for blue collar jobs.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have no idea what the H1B scam supposedly is, but we struggle to find qualified candidates.

It's not that there aren't candidates who have a CS degree or something - there are plenty of mediocre candidates - there are very few quality ones. That's true whether we are talking us citizen or not. Generalizing a bit, we tend to see better poise and prescence from us citizens who are perhaps more culturally acclimated, but we see generally weaker mathematics and critical reasoning skills as well. On the flip side the the H1Bs tend to be on the stronger end of the bell curve in mathematics and related disciplines, and usually somewhat weaker on the presentation side.

We've never said "hey let's hire an h1b cause he's cheaper" or "let's hire a us citizen because they are a citizen". We hire those that pass the screening and testing process. Many citizens don't, many h1bs dont.

There seems to be this idea that because someone has completed a degree they are "entitled" to a job - or deserving of one - or because they've done a program they are equally qualified, but of course that's simply not the case. H1Bs exist because there's a desire to hire top talent, and some H1Bs - just like some citizens - are truly exceptional talent.

H1Bs are not being used to hire exceptional talent. Let us know more specifically what it would take to get hired by you. Stronger in mathematics, meaning what precisely?

You are partly correct and partly incorrect. Are there lots of low skilled h1b in IT? Yes, but there are also a good number of top talent on h1bs, too.

No way - most of the H1Bs I have worked with definitely lack critical thinking and strategic thinking skills. If you get to know any of them, you will find out in school those skills are not stressed and are not well regarded. This is the biggest hurdle we have when working with them.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
here in DMV there are many many US citizens available for software development jobs.
Maybe your DH should be posting the details because if he can't find americans there is some constraint, maybe clearances are required? or maybe they want developers under 30? or maybe they are looking for the purple squirrel of specific arcane tech knowledge and company will not train? or maybe they only pay 60K a year?
there are lots of smart capable people available in DMV area

Sure there are. And I deal with many of them, unfortunately some as employees.
Typically the major concern is leaving the office at 5 PM, better to find a good reason to leave earlier.
Kid's football game, wedding anniversary, mother's birthday, sister's nuptials, PTA, whatever.
Maximize every long weekend and holiday, personal day and vacation.
Even offering more money works not - they have enough.
Think of early retirement starting at 30.

Au contraire, immigrants typically WORK. Holidays, weekends, nights, Christmas break, whatever.
They came here to WORK and EARN and move UP, and they always want just one thing - MORE and UP.
More work and more advancement. I've never had one asking me for time off, but dozens asking for more overtime.
They are not necessarily better qualified (many are worse) or have unique skills (most don't),
but showing up is 80% of winning as said.
Sure there are exceptions both ways, but some 90% are that way in either case.

That is not ONLY because immigrants are desperate for GC ore because Indians or Russians somehow smarter,
or better educated, or work harder in their countries: they aren't and don't, or their countries would be above USA.
It is self-selection of people who come here. Those willing to give up their friends, family, native language, familiar food and culture,
etc. to jump through the hoops and suffer immigration indignities to MOVE UP.

I am one, former H-1B. I am a US citizen for 10 years now, desperate for nothing.
It is Sunday, nice day outside. I am at work (as always), writing this in my lunch break at my desk.

If you call that "compliant workforce", so be it.

This is one of the saddest things I have read. I don't want to live in a country where all people do is work -7 days a week /12 hours a day. I don't my kids to grow up and have that kind of life no matter how much money they make. I want them to be able to go to their kids baseball, basketball, soccer, and football games (if anyone is even playing football in 20 years). I want them to come visit me on Mother's Day and Christmas and attend other family events on the weekends and after work. I don't want to live in a neighborhood with neighbors who work 80 hours a week. I am not happy Trump won but if he cuts H1b visas I will be happy.

Me neither and I'm Indian. The US has pathetic work life balance as it is !

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
If H1B has a salary limit, it will mean more H1Bs are for high skilled labor going to US corporations, which is what it was meant to be.

Oracle sent their entire development unit offshore a while ago (and yes, quality did suffer, but it's still there). DBA and sys admins may not go offshore, and the offshore company will always have a represtentative in the US, but a lot of the support and low level development will go.

Yes, some companies are bringing back from offshore, and part of it is due to work quality but the other part is due to higher wages now in India. It's not as cheap as it used to be, but still cheaper than here.

And Agile doesn't work for certain types of systems. This is a whole other conversation, though.

Like I stated, more and more companies are outsourcing even some of their low level admin work.

is this what happened to jDeveloper and BPEL and SOA? turned into a mess of complexity and instability.

Partly this and partly I think the company got too big, and bought too many other companies with different techologies. It's also harder to change older technology. I liken it to a city's infrastructure. If you have a really old city with not much wiring, it's easy to put in all brand new technology, whereas if you have a city with established wiring and system, it's much harder to change the technology. This is like South Korea. They are the most wired, high tech country in the world. They went from 3rd world country to this in just 50 years because they pretty much had a blank slate to start with.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I don't want to live in a country where all people do is work -7 days a week /12 hours a day. I don't my kids to grow up and have that kind of life no matter how much money they make. I want them to be able to go to their kids baseball, basketball, soccer, and football games (if anyone is even playing football in 20 years). I want them to come visit me on Mother's Day and Christmas and attend other family events on the weekends and after work. I don't want to live in a neighborhood with neighbors who work 80 hours a week. I am not happy Trump won but if he cuts H1b visas I will be happy.

Sure, that is what you want.
But employers want and, more importantly, USA needs people who WILL work 80 hours a week instead of attending family events.
Who have more than enough for rest of their lives and still want only one thing - MORE.
Because the Intels and Yahoos and Googles are not built by those who spend their workdays looking at the clock to not miss their kids baseball.
So Trump will NOT abolish H-1B visas, in fact (just announced) the number for next FY will be exactly same as last year.
Some excesses, abuses, and document frauds may well be curtailed and total numbers cut some. I fully support that.

You are delusional. I have many friends at google and intel. None are working 80 hrs. And all make their kids games. Is that the song and dance infosys sells to keep its employees in line, this false dream to work at a real tech company?

I have worked at one of those high tech companies that is being referenced here. Most allow flexible working hours, so you can often end up working more than 40 hrs/week (probably not 80 though) because many typically work at night from home after the kids have gone to bed. And I have seen emails being sent on the weekend. This is how they make their kids' games, school activities, etc...

H1Bs who want a green card are indentured servants, though. I've had many close friends come over as H1Bs and then apply for GC.

That said, they really should put a $ cut off for H1B workers. Any job that pays less than $100K cannot use H1Bs. However, if this had applied several years, Melania Trump would not have been able to come into the US to work (though some say she worked here illegally anyways prior to the H1B). Models get paid by gigs, and agencies don't guarantee a fixed wage. But, I'm sure Trump will make exceptions for the modeling industry.

Agreed, 40 hour weeks and clock watching are not normal Google or the like. They do work 'all the time' in the flex schedule way, but total hours won't be 80. Usually more than 40 but not insane because their creative prowess is what makes them valuable not grinding widget hours.

A ceiling floor makes sense -- if these are coveted unfillable technical roles, a high salary should be baked in. This will help flush out the line staff roles they import for middling wages. And they won't outsource this work bc at the end of the day they need control of the data and infrastructure, it is their life blood and very very valuable. Opening it up to a contractors office in bangelore, leaving the welcome mat out for cybercrime and industrial espionage. This isn't like the call centers of 'Outsourced', these are says admins, DBAs, keeping the systems they depend on to run their business with very valuable data. They want it domestic and under tight access control, hence the H1Bs. If they can't get cheap labor they will pay more bc the risk of outsourcing is too great.

PP here. I disagree with the bolded.

Many of those high tech companies use offshore models for managing their internal data already. Some even offshore admin work -- things like month end close, billing, collection, etc to places like the Philippines. I've worked with some of them. They work US hours. I predict if the H1B is cut dramatically for the under $100K jobs, many of the larger companies will offshore more work. It's a cost cutting move, pure and simple.

I disagree. I have seen 2 different projects outsource and then reverse action. People need to be onsite for part of the week.

Maybe trivial stuff, but any development or support, of any complexity or significant risk, will be done in US. We have used NetAPP and IBM and both have in USA support staff for 24 by 7 support. US guy may call indian guy, but we as customers go through US based guy. Then for our own systems, there is no way we would have off site dbas and unix admins in remote non-USA locations. And as for development, our management already tried it, and is bringing work back home. It was a failure to outsource development. The code was poorly written and did not meant requirements, industry is going to agile, which is complete opposite of outsourcing via contract.

If H1B has a salary limit, it will mean more H1Bs are for high skilled labor going to US corporations, which is what it was meant to be.

Oracle sent their entire development unit offshore a while ago (and yes, quality did suffer, but it's still there). DBA and sys admins may not go offshore, and the offshore company will always have a represtentative in the US, but a lot of the support and low level development will go.

Yes, some companies are bringing back from offshore, and part of it is due to work quality but the other part is due to higher wages now in India. It's not as cheap as it used to be, but still cheaper than here.

And Agile doesn't work for certain types of systems. This is a whole other conversation, though.

Like I stated, more and more companies are outsourcing even some of their low level admin work.

is this what happened to jDeveloper and BPEL and SOA? turned into a mess of complexity and instability.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I don't want to live in a country where all people do is work -7 days a week /12 hours a day. I don't my kids to grow up and have that kind of life no matter how much money they make. I want them to be able to go to their kids baseball, basketball, soccer, and football games (if anyone is even playing football in 20 years). I want them to come visit me on Mother's Day and Christmas and attend other family events on the weekends and after work. I don't want to live in a neighborhood with neighbors who work 80 hours a week. I am not happy Trump won but if he cuts H1b visas I will be happy.

Sure, that is what you want.
But employers want and, more importantly, USA needs people who WILL work 80 hours a week instead of attending family events.
Who have more than enough for rest of their lives and still want only one thing - MORE.
Because the Intels and Yahoos and Googles are not built by those who spend their workdays looking at the clock to not miss their kids baseball.
So Trump will NOT abolish H-1B visas, in fact (just announced) the number for next FY will be exactly same as last year.
Some excesses, abuses, and document frauds may well be curtailed and total numbers cut some. I fully support that.

You are delusional. I have many friends at google and intel. None are working 80 hrs. And all make their kids games. Is that the song and dance infosys sells to keep its employees in line, this false dream to work at a real tech company?

I have worked at one of those high tech companies that is being referenced here. Most allow flexible working hours, so you can often end up working more than 40 hrs/week (probably not 80 though) because many typically work at night from home after the kids have gone to bed. And I have seen emails being sent on the weekend. This is how they make their kids' games, school activities, etc...

H1Bs who want a green card are indentured servants, though. I've had many close friends come over as H1Bs and then apply for GC.

That said, they really should put a $ cut off for H1B workers. Any job that pays less than $100K cannot use H1Bs. However, if this had applied several years, Melania Trump would not have been able to come into the US to work (though some say she worked here illegally anyways prior to the H1B). Models get paid by gigs, and agencies don't guarantee a fixed wage. But, I'm sure Trump will make exceptions for the modeling industry.

Agreed, 40 hour weeks and clock watching are not normal Google or the like. They do work 'all the time' in the flex schedule way, but total hours won't be 80. Usually more than 40 but not insane because their creative prowess is what makes them valuable not grinding widget hours.

A ceiling floor makes sense -- if these are coveted unfillable technical roles, a high salary should be baked in. This will help flush out the line staff roles they import for middling wages. And they won't outsource this work bc at the end of the day they need control of the data and infrastructure, it is their life blood and very very valuable. Opening it up to a contractors office in bangelore, leaving the welcome mat out for cybercrime and industrial espionage. This isn't like the call centers of 'Outsourced', these are says admins, DBAs, keeping the systems they depend on to run their business with very valuable data. They want it domestic and under tight access control, hence the H1Bs. If they can't get cheap labor they will pay more bc the risk of outsourcing is too great.

PP here. I disagree with the bolded.

Many of those high tech companies use offshore models for managing their internal data already. Some even offshore admin work -- things like month end close, billing, collection, etc to places like the Philippines. I've worked with some of them. They work US hours. I predict if the H1B is cut dramatically for the under $100K jobs, many of the larger companies will offshore more work. It's a cost cutting move, pure and simple.

I disagree. I have seen 2 different projects outsource and then reverse action. People need to be onsite for part of the week.

Maybe trivial stuff, but any development or support, of any complexity or significant risk, will be done in US. We have used NetAPP and IBM and both have in USA support staff for 24 by 7 support. US guy may call indian guy, but we as customers go through US based guy. Then for our own systems, there is no way we would have off site dbas and unix admins in remote non-USA locations. And as for development, our management already tried it, and is bringing work back home. It was a failure to outsource development. The code was poorly written and did not meant requirements, industry is going to agile, which is complete opposite of outsourcing via contract.

If H1B has a salary limit, it will mean more H1Bs are for high skilled labor going to US corporations, which is what it was meant to be.

Oracle sent their entire development unit offshore a while ago (and yes, quality did suffer, but it's still there). DBA and sys admins may not go offshore, and the offshore company will always have a represtentative in the US, but a lot of the support and low level development will go.

Yes, some companies are bringing back from offshore, and part of it is due to work quality but the other part is due to higher wages now in India. It's not as cheap as it used to be, but still cheaper than here.

And Agile doesn't work for certain types of systems. This is a whole other conversation, though.

Like I stated, more and more companies are outsourcing even some of their low level admin work.

Oracle? That dinosaur is dying and living off of legacy contracts and systems; of course they would gamble with the Crown Jewels to cut costs, its all they can do. Cloud is going to devour them in a decade.

Maybe, but the point is that several big high tech companies have and will offshore. Oracle did it years ago; what makes you think eventually some of the other bigger companies won't eventually do it? Oracle was just an example.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have no idea what the H1B scam supposedly is, but we struggle to find qualified candidates.

It's not that there aren't candidates who have a CS degree or something - there are plenty of mediocre candidates - there are very few quality ones. That's true whether we are talking us citizen or not. Generalizing a bit, we tend to see better poise and prescence from us citizens who are perhaps more culturally acclimated, but we see generally weaker mathematics and critical reasoning skills as well. On the flip side the the H1Bs tend to be on the stronger end of the bell curve in mathematics and related disciplines, and usually somewhat weaker on the presentation side.

We've never said "hey let's hire an h1b cause he's cheaper" or "let's hire a us citizen because they are a citizen". We hire those that pass the screening and testing process. Many citizens don't, many h1bs dont.

There seems to be this idea that because someone has completed a degree they are "entitled" to a job - or deserving of one - or because they've done a program they are equally qualified, but of course that's simply not the case. H1Bs exist because there's a desire to hire top talent, and some H1Bs - just like some citizens - are truly exceptional talent.

H1Bs are not being used to hire exceptional talent. Let us know more specifically what it would take to get hired by you. Stronger in mathematics, meaning what precisely?

Well you are obviously baiting ....

It's not that H1Bs are used to hire exceptional talent - it's that we hire those pass the process. Some are H1B. Some are not.

As an example, we might ask a candidate to assess three projects: project A costs $50K and returns $20K a month for 12 months. Project B costs 90K and returns $55K for 8 months. Project C takes costs $10k and returns $5K for 28 months. Each project takes 1 month to complete per $10K. The boss wants the biggest return possible by the next board meeting in 24 months. What do you do?

Most people can't solve this. If you then ask them how much cheaper or faster project X had to be to be equivalent to project Y, many can't solve it at all.

Few who solve these kinds of problems probe at all - some can do the math but they never ask what the projects are, or if they can be run in parallel or have to be in sequence (most assume in sequence). A lot of candidates don't even contemplate doing more than 1 project.

And this is the basic stuff. Perhaps this seems simple to you - which if it does - congrats, you are already better than probably 70% of candidates

Interesting. How long do you have to discuss? It doesn't seem like a very hard question.

It just starts with something like that.

They might then ask you to evaluate the different projects from a strategic lens. That might uncover a probability adjusted likelihood of success - or it might uncover that one of the projects is converting existing customers to a more expensive plan per month. Good candidates might then question what the attrition would look like in the future. Great candidates might probe if the fees are monthly or yearly. You might then be asked to graph what the attrition curve might look like.

Those that get that far might be probed on competitive responses or asked about pricing promotion strategies, etc. How deep it gets really depends how well the candidate is doing. As I said, most can't solve for X, much less a simultaneous eq. It may seem absurd to ask technical people to do this, but we've historically empowered people to design and execute changes, so they need to be able to asses the value of a particular project and at least have some thoughts around how useful it might be or how it could play out for customers.

The case typically ends with asking the candidate to make a recommendation. By now, if they've done well, they'll know which project is stealing competitor share, which one is converting existing customers, which one has a high probability of success and which a low (so they'll have figured out the probability adjusted payout streams), will have probed about simulteanous vs sequential, etc.

Strong candidates will make a clear and concise case ("you run into the CEO in the elevator, he wants to know what to do, you have 60 seconds to convince him."), weaker ones will hedge and ramble.

FWIw I've seen this same approach at other companies too. At one firm I was given 100 or so pages of a presentation and asked which 3 slides I would bring to the board.

And then of course, there's the technical part of the interview.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have no idea what the H1B scam supposedly is, but we struggle to find qualified candidates.

It's not that there aren't candidates who have a CS degree or something - there are plenty of mediocre candidates - there are very few quality ones. That's true whether we are talking us citizen or not. Generalizing a bit, we tend to see better poise and prescence from us citizens who are perhaps more culturally acclimated, but we see generally weaker mathematics and critical reasoning skills as well. On the flip side the the H1Bs tend to be on the stronger end of the bell curve in mathematics and related disciplines, and usually somewhat weaker on the presentation side.

We've never said "hey let's hire an h1b cause he's cheaper" or "let's hire a us citizen because they are a citizen". We hire those that pass the screening and testing process. Many citizens don't, many h1bs dont.

There seems to be this idea that because someone has completed a degree they are "entitled" to a job - or deserving of one - or because they've done a program they are equally qualified, but of course that's simply not the case. H1Bs exist because there's a desire to hire top talent, and some H1Bs - just like some citizens - are truly exceptional talent.

H1Bs are not being used to hire exceptional talent. Let us know more specifically what it would take to get hired by you. Stronger in mathematics, meaning what precisely?

Well you are obviously baiting ....

It's not that H1Bs are used to hire exceptional talent - it's that we hire those pass the process. Some are H1B. Some are not.

As an example, we might ask a candidate to assess three projects: project A costs $50K and returns $20K a month for 12 months. Project B costs 90K and returns $55K for 8 months. Project C takes costs $10k and returns $5K for 28 months. Each project takes 1 month to complete per $10K. The boss wants the biggest return possible by the next board meeting in 24 months. What do you do?

Most people can't solve this. If you then ask them how much cheaper or faster project X had to be to be equivalent to project Y, many can't solve it at all.

Few who solve these kinds of problems probe at all - some can do the math but they never ask what the projects are, or if they can be run in parallel or have to be in sequence (most assume in sequence). A lot of candidates don't even contemplate doing more than 1 project.

And this is the basic stuff. Perhaps this seems simple to you - which if it does - congrats, you are already better than probably 70% of candidates

Interesting. How long do you have to discuss? It doesn't seem like a very hard question.

I should add I made the numbers above up as an example of the thinking required. It's probably a poor example to try and solve though as the tradeoffs between projects aren't properly set up.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have no idea what the H1B scam supposedly is, but we struggle to find qualified candidates.

It's not that there aren't candidates who have a CS degree or something - there are plenty of mediocre candidates - there are very few quality ones. That's true whether we are talking us citizen or not. Generalizing a bit, we tend to see better poise and prescence from us citizens who are perhaps more culturally acclimated, but we see generally weaker mathematics and critical reasoning skills as well. On the flip side the the H1Bs tend to be on the stronger end of the bell curve in mathematics and related disciplines, and usually somewhat weaker on the presentation side.

We've never said "hey let's hire an h1b cause he's cheaper" or "let's hire a us citizen because they are a citizen". We hire those that pass the screening and testing process. Many citizens don't, many h1bs dont.

There seems to be this idea that because someone has completed a degree they are "entitled" to a job - or deserving of one - or because they've done a program they are equally qualified, but of course that's simply not the case. H1Bs exist because there's a desire to hire top talent, and some H1Bs - just like some citizens - are truly exceptional talent.

H1Bs are not being used to hire exceptional talent. Let us know more specifically what it would take to get hired by you. Stronger in mathematics, meaning what precisely?

Well you are obviously baiting ....

It's not that H1Bs are used to hire exceptional talent - it's that we hire those pass the process. Some are H1B. Some are not.

As an example, we might ask a candidate to assess three projects: project A costs $50K and returns $20K a month for 12 months. Project B costs 90K and returns $55K for 8 months. Project C takes costs $10k and returns $5K for 28 months. Each project takes 1 month to complete per $10K. The boss wants the biggest return possible by the next board meeting in 24 months. What do you do?

Most people can't solve this. If you then ask them how much cheaper or faster project X had to be to be equivalent to project Y, many can't solve it at all.

Few who solve these kinds of problems probe at all - some can do the math but they never ask what the projects are, or if they can be run in parallel or have to be in sequence (most assume in sequence). A lot of candidates don't even contemplate doing more than 1 project.

And this is the basic stuff. Perhaps this seems simple to you - which if it does - congrats, you are already better than probably 70% of candidates

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have no idea what the H1B scam supposedly is, but we struggle to find qualified candidates.

It's not that there aren't candidates who have a CS degree or something - there are plenty of mediocre candidates - there are very few quality ones. That's true whether we are talking us citizen or not. Generalizing a bit, we tend to see better poise and prescence from us citizens who are perhaps more culturally acclimated, but we see generally weaker mathematics and critical reasoning skills as well. On the flip side the the H1Bs tend to be on the stronger end of the bell curve in mathematics and related disciplines, and usually somewhat weaker on the presentation side.

We've never said "hey let's hire an h1b cause he's cheaper" or "let's hire a us citizen because they are a citizen". We hire those that pass the screening and testing process. Many citizens don't, many h1bs dont.

There seems to be this idea that because someone has completed a degree they are "entitled" to a job - or deserving of one - or because they've done a program they are equally qualified, but of course that's simply not the case. H1Bs exist because there's a desire to hire top talent, and some H1Bs - just like some citizens - are truly exceptional talent.

H1Bs are not being used to hire exceptional talent. Let us know more specifically what it would take to get hired by you. Stronger in mathematics, meaning what precisely?

This PP problem is he wants to pay talent less then they would make in Sunny California and then make them live in NoVa. It's no wonder he has to go overseas and bend gov regulations to staff up.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I don't want to live in a country where all people do is work -7 days a week /12 hours a day. I don't my kids to grow up and have that kind of life no matter how much money they make. I want them to be able to go to their kids baseball, basketball, soccer, and football games (if anyone is even playing football in 20 years). I want them to come visit me on Mother's Day and Christmas and attend other family events on the weekends and after work. I don't want to live in a neighborhood with neighbors who work 80 hours a week. I am not happy Trump won but if he cuts H1b visas I will be happy.

Sure, that is what you want.
But employers want and, more importantly, USA needs people who WILL work 80 hours a week instead of attending family events.
Who have more than enough for rest of their lives and still want only one thing - MORE.
Because the Intels and Yahoos and Googles are not built by those who spend their workdays looking at the clock to not miss their kids baseball.
So Trump will NOT abolish H-1B visas, in fact (just announced) the number for next FY will be exactly same as last year.
Some excesses, abuses, and document frauds may well be curtailed and total numbers cut some. I fully support that.

You are delusional. I have many friends at google and intel. None are working 80 hrs. And all make their kids games. Is that the song and dance infosys sells to keep its employees in line, this false dream to work at a real tech company?

I have worked at one of those high tech companies that is being referenced here. Most allow flexible working hours, so you can often end up working more than 40 hrs/week (probably not 80 though) because many typically work at night from home after the kids have gone to bed. And I have seen emails being sent on the weekend. This is how they make their kids' games, school activities, etc...

H1Bs who want a green card are indentured servants, though. I've had many close friends come over as H1Bs and then apply for GC.

That said, they really should put a $ cut off for H1B workers. Any job that pays less than $100K cannot use H1Bs. However, if this had applied several years, Melania Trump would not have been able to come into the US to work (though some say she worked here illegally anyways prior to the H1B). Models get paid by gigs, and agencies don't guarantee a fixed wage. But, I'm sure Trump will make exceptions for the modeling industry.

Agreed, 40 hour weeks and clock watching are not normal Google or the like. They do work 'all the time' in the flex schedule way, but total hours won't be 80. Usually more than 40 but not insane because their creative prowess is what makes them valuable not grinding widget hours.

A ceiling floor makes sense -- if these are coveted unfillable technical roles, a high salary should be baked in. This will help flush out the line staff roles they import for middling wages. And they won't outsource this work bc at the end of the day they need control of the data and infrastructure, it is their life blood and very very valuable. Opening it up to a contractors office in bangelore, leaving the welcome mat out for cybercrime and industrial espionage. This isn't like the call centers of 'Outsourced', these are says admins, DBAs, keeping the systems they depend on to run their business with very valuable data. They want it domestic and under tight access control, hence the H1Bs. If they can't get cheap labor they will pay more bc the risk of outsourcing is too great.

PP here. I disagree with the bolded.

Many of those high tech companies use offshore models for managing their internal data already. Some even offshore admin work -- things like month end close, billing, collection, etc to places like the Philippines. I've worked with some of them. They work US hours. I predict if the H1B is cut dramatically for the under $100K jobs, many of the larger companies will offshore more work. It's a cost cutting move, pure and simple.

I disagree. I have seen 2 different projects outsource and then reverse action. People need to be onsite for part of the week.

Maybe trivial stuff, but any development or support, of any complexity or significant risk, will be done in US. We have used NetAPP and IBM and both have in USA support staff for 24 by 7 support. US guy may call indian guy, but we as customers go through US based guy. Then for our own systems, there is no way we would have off site dbas and unix admins in remote non-USA locations. And as for development, our management already tried it, and is bringing work back home. It was a failure to outsource development. The code was poorly written and did not meant requirements, industry is going to agile, which is complete opposite of outsourcing via contract.

If H1B has a salary limit, it will mean more H1Bs are for high skilled labor going to US corporations, which is what it was meant to be.

Oracle sent their entire development unit offshore a while ago (and yes, quality did suffer, but it's still there). DBA and sys admins may not go offshore, and the offshore company will always have a represtentative in the US, but a lot of the support and low level development will go.

Yes, some companies are bringing back from offshore, and part of it is due to work quality but the other part is due to higher wages now in India. It's not as cheap as it used to be, but still cheaper than here.

And Agile doesn't work for certain types of systems. This is a whole other conversation, though.

Like I stated, more and more companies are outsourcing even some of their low level admin work.

Oracle? That dinosaur is dying and living off of legacy contracts and systems; of course they would gamble with the Crown Jewels to cut costs, its all they can do. Cloud is going to devour them in a decade.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I don't want to live in a country where all people do is work -7 days a week /12 hours a day. I don't my kids to grow up and have that kind of life no matter how much money they make. I want them to be able to go to their kids baseball, basketball, soccer, and football games (if anyone is even playing football in 20 years). I want them to come visit me on Mother's Day and Christmas and attend other family events on the weekends and after work. I don't want to live in a neighborhood with neighbors who work 80 hours a week. I am not happy Trump won but if he cuts H1b visas I will be happy.

Sure, that is what you want.
But employers want and, more importantly, USA needs people who WILL work 80 hours a week instead of attending family events.
Who have more than enough for rest of their lives and still want only one thing - MORE.
Because the Intels and Yahoos and Googles are not built by those who spend their workdays looking at the clock to not miss their kids baseball.
So Trump will NOT abolish H-1B visas, in fact (just announced) the number for next FY will be exactly same as last year.
Some excesses, abuses, and document frauds may well be curtailed and total numbers cut some. I fully support that.

You are delusional. I have many friends at google and intel. None are working 80 hrs. And all make their kids games. Is that the song and dance infosys sells to keep its employees in line, this false dream to work at a real tech company?

I have worked at one of those high tech companies that is being referenced here. Most allow flexible working hours, so you can often end up working more than 40 hrs/week (probably not 80 though) because many typically work at night from home after the kids have gone to bed. And I have seen emails being sent on the weekend. This is how they make their kids' games, school activities, etc...

H1Bs who want a green card are indentured servants, though. I've had many close friends come over as H1Bs and then apply for GC.

That said, they really should put a $ cut off for H1B workers. Any job that pays less than $100K cannot use H1Bs. However, if this had applied several years, Melania Trump would not have been able to come into the US to work (though some say she worked here illegally anyways prior to the H1B). Models get paid by gigs, and agencies don't guarantee a fixed wage. But, I'm sure Trump will make exceptions for the modeling industry.

Agreed, 40 hour weeks and clock watching are not normal Google or the like. They do work 'all the time' in the flex schedule way, but total hours won't be 80. Usually more than 40 but not insane because their creative prowess is what makes them valuable not grinding widget hours.

A ceiling floor makes sense -- if these are coveted unfillable technical roles, a high salary should be baked in. This will help flush out the line staff roles they import for middling wages. And they won't outsource this work bc at the end of the day they need control of the data and infrastructure, it is their life blood and very very valuable. Opening it up to a contractors office in bangelore, leaving the welcome mat out for cybercrime and industrial espionage. This isn't like the call centers of 'Outsourced', these are says admins, DBAs, keeping the systems they depend on to run their business with very valuable data. They want it domestic and under tight access control, hence the H1Bs. If they can't get cheap labor they will pay more bc the risk of outsourcing is too great.

PP here. I disagree with the bolded.

Many of those high tech companies use offshore models for managing their internal data already. Some even offshore admin work -- things like month end close, billing, collection, etc to places like the Philippines. I've worked with some of them. They work US hours. I predict if the H1B is cut dramatically for the under $100K jobs, many of the larger companies will offshore more work. It's a cost cutting move, pure and simple.

I disagree. I have seen 2 different projects outsource and then reverse action. People need to be onsite for part of the week.

Maybe trivial stuff, but any development or support, of any complexity or significant risk, will be done in US. We have used NetAPP and IBM and both have in USA support staff for 24 by 7 support. US guy may call indian guy, but we as customers go through US based guy. Then for our own systems, there is no way we would have off site dbas and unix admins in remote non-USA locations. And as for development, our management already tried it, and is bringing work back home. It was a failure to outsource development. The code was poorly written and did not meant requirements, industry is going to agile, which is complete opposite of outsourcing via contract.

If H1B has a salary limit, it will mean more H1Bs are for high skilled labor going to US corporations, which is what it was meant to be.

Oracle sent their entire development unit offshore a while ago (and yes, quality did suffer, but it's still there). DBA and sys admins may not go offshore, and the offshore company will always have a represtentative in the US, but a lot of the support and low level development will go.

Yes, some companies are bringing back from offshore, and part of it is due to work quality but the other part is due to higher wages now in India. It's not as cheap as it used to be, but still cheaper than here.

And Agile doesn't work for certain types of systems. This is a whole other conversation, though.

Like I stated, more and more companies are outsourcing even some of their low level admin work.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have no idea what the H1B scam supposedly is, but we struggle to find qualified candidates.

It's not that there aren't candidates who have a CS degree or something - there are plenty of mediocre candidates - there are very few quality ones. That's true whether we are talking us citizen or not. Generalizing a bit, we tend to see better poise and prescence from us citizens who are perhaps more culturally acclimated, but we see generally weaker mathematics and critical reasoning skills as well. On the flip side the the H1Bs tend to be on the stronger end of the bell curve in mathematics and related disciplines, and usually somewhat weaker on the presentation side.

We've never said "hey let's hire an h1b cause he's cheaper" or "let's hire a us citizen because they are a citizen". We hire those that pass the screening and testing process. Many citizens don't, many h1bs dont.

There seems to be this idea that because someone has completed a degree they are "entitled" to a job - or deserving of one - or because they've done a program they are equally qualified, but of course that's simply not the case. H1Bs exist because there's a desire to hire top talent, and some H1Bs - just like some citizens - are truly exceptional talent.

H1Bs are not being used to hire exceptional talent. Let us know more specifically what it would take to get hired by you. Stronger in mathematics, meaning what precisely?

You are partly correct and partly incorrect. Are there lots of low skilled h1b in IT? Yes, but there are also a good number of top talent on h1bs, too.