I read an interesting article the other day about how Jesus (the historical figure) might not have existed and that this hasn't been sufficiently explored.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you can understand his writing, then I'll suggest this - http://www.bu.edu/arion/files/2010/10/Wells_21Sept2010_Layout-1.pdf

similar sentiments found here - The Evolution of God (Wright)

You simply have a belief in a belief system. That is all.

Why do so many atheists, who claim to put so much stock in rationality, resort to grade-school insults to make their points? Do you guys realize that everybody tunes you out as childish bullies with nothing substantive to say?

I'm super sick of atheists like the righteous PP in this thread. They pick out religion for special scorn with an irrational vengeance -- religion is one kind of ideology. Communism, socialism, fascism, secular humanism -- these are also ideologies. We are all human -- criticizing religion as "man-made" like that's some devastating critique is ridiculous. All ideologies are articulated to an extent by man, even if they reflect non super-natural "truths" like Marxism's materialistic interpretation of history. For the record, I'm the OP that believes Jesus existed and loves his teachings. I do not believe in God -- nor I do believe there is NOT a God -- I'm just indifferent and try to follow Jesus's teaching. If others think him divine, I respect that and their belief in God. I guess that makes me an atheist, but I am wholly opposed to the reductive, anti-religion atheism of the PP.

PP, we know there are plenty of thoughtful atheists like you out there, and who aren't threatened by somebody else's beliefs. Live and let live.

It would be wonderful if there were more religious believers who were not threatened by the very existence of atheists --picking out atheism for special scorn with an irrational vengeance. thinking that atheists are immoral simply because they do not believe in any of the gods of various religions and that human life ends just the way other animals' lives end -- forever.

PS - saying religions is "man-made" is not a criticism -- it's a fact.

Question: Is it a grade school insult to state, without evidence that "everybody tunes you out as childish bullies with nothing substantive to say?"

It sure is nice that not all religious people are like this.

That's it? The one lame attempt to source the claims above--that Jesus never existed and was invented by some unidentified hegemonist--went down in flames. So there's nothing there. No scholarly support, nothing.

How quickly you give up and return to insulting people.

This, my friend, is why everybody tunes you out. To answer your question, it's not an insult, it's a fact. Bonus points for playing the atheist victim card even as you continue to insult people. I wish you could appreciate the irony.

pp above is definitely not tuning out the atheist. pp can't resist engaging. Makes you wonder about the firmness of pp's faith.

How silly

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you can understand his writing, then I'll suggest this - http://www.bu.edu/arion/files/2010/10/Wells_21Sept2010_Layout-1.pdf

similar sentiments found here - The Evolution of God (Wright)

You simply have a belief in a belief system. That is all.

Why do so many atheists, who claim to put so much stock in rationality, resort to grade-school insults to make their points? Do you guys realize that everybody tunes you out as childish bullies with nothing substantive to say?

I'm super sick of atheists like the righteous PP in this thread. They pick out religion for special scorn with an irrational vengeance -- religion is one kind of ideology. Communism, socialism, fascism, secular humanism -- these are also ideologies. We are all human -- criticizing religion as "man-made" like that's some devastating critique is ridiculous. All ideologies are articulated to an extent by man, even if they reflect non super-natural "truths" like Marxism's materialistic interpretation of history. For the record, I'm the OP that believes Jesus existed and loves his teachings. I do not believe in God -- nor I do believe there is NOT a God -- I'm just indifferent and try to follow Jesus's teaching. If others think him divine, I respect that and their belief in God. I guess that makes me an atheist, but I am wholly opposed to the reductive, anti-religion atheism of the PP.

PP, we know there are plenty of thoughtful atheists like you out there, and who aren't threatened by somebody else's beliefs. Live and let live.

It would be wonderful if there were more religious believers who were not threatened by the very existence of atheists --picking out atheism for special scorn with an irrational vengeance. thinking that atheists are immoral simply because they do not believe in any of the gods of various religions and that human life ends just the way other animals' lives end -- forever.

PS - saying religions is "man-made" is not a criticism -- it's a fact.

Question: Is it a grade school insult to state, without evidence that "everybody tunes you out as childish bullies with nothing substantive to say?"

It sure is nice that not all religious people are like this.

And for the record, I don't think you're immoral, just really obnoxious.

I think she's boring, but not immoral. Boring because the only quivers in her bow are insults and unsubstantiated nonsense she can't even be bothered to defend. I suppose we could debate whether all her insults are somehow immoral, but they're so immature it doesn't seem fair to judge her as an adult.

Who wants to waste time debating insults and substance-free nonsense?

Goodbye all, and I'll come back to this thread if atheist pp comes up with some actual substance we can sink our teeth into.

pp does! But this is not indicative of the behavior of many religious people, especially progressive Christians who are very accepting of all kinds of people. They value their own faith greatly, and feel no need to insult others, whatever their beliefs or non-beliefs.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you can understand his writing, then I'll suggest this - http://www.bu.edu/arion/files/2010/10/Wells_21Sept2010_Layout-1.pdf

similar sentiments found here - The Evolution of God (Wright)

You simply have a belief in a belief system. That is all.

Why do so many atheists, who claim to put so much stock in rationality, resort to grade-school insults to make their points? Do you guys realize that everybody tunes you out as childish bullies with nothing substantive to say?

I'm super sick of atheists like the righteous PP in this thread. They pick out religion for special scorn with an irrational vengeance -- religion is one kind of ideology. Communism, socialism, fascism, secular humanism -- these are also ideologies. We are all human -- criticizing religion as "man-made" like that's some devastating critique is ridiculous. All ideologies are articulated to an extent by man, even if they reflect non super-natural "truths" like Marxism's materialistic interpretation of history. For the record, I'm the OP that believes Jesus existed and loves his teachings. I do not believe in God -- nor I do believe there is NOT a God -- I'm just indifferent and try to follow Jesus's teaching. If others think him divine, I respect that and their belief in God. I guess that makes me an atheist, but I am wholly opposed to the reductive, anti-religion atheism of the PP.

PP, we know there are plenty of thoughtful atheists like you out there, and who aren't threatened by somebody else's beliefs. Live and let live.

It would be wonderful if there were more religious believers who were not threatened by the very existence of atheists --picking out atheism for special scorn with an irrational vengeance. thinking that atheists are immoral simply because they do not believe in any of the gods of various religions and that human life ends just the way other animals' lives end -- forever.

PS - saying religions is "man-made" is not a criticism -- it's a fact.

Question: Is it a grade school insult to state, without evidence that "everybody tunes you out as childish bullies with nothing substantive to say?"

It sure is nice that not all religious people are like this.

That's it? The one lame attempt to source the claims above--that Jesus never existed and was invented by some unidentified hegemonist--went down in flames. So there's nothing there. No scholarly support, nothing.

How quickly you give up and return to insulting people.

This, my friend, is why everybody tunes you out. To answer your question, it's not an insult, it's a fact. Bonus points for playing the atheist victim card even as you continue to insult people. I wish you could appreciate the irony.

pp above is definitely not tuning out the atheist. pp can't resist engaging. Makes you wonder about the firmness of pp's faith.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you can understand his writing, then I'll suggest this - http://www.bu.edu/arion/files/2010/10/Wells_21Sept2010_Layout-1.pdf

similar sentiments found here - The Evolution of God (Wright)

You simply have a belief in a belief system. That is all.

Why do so many atheists, who claim to put so much stock in rationality, resort to grade-school insults to make their points? Do you guys realize that everybody tunes you out as childish bullies with nothing substantive to say?

I'm super sick of atheists like the righteous PP in this thread. They pick out religion for special scorn with an irrational vengeance -- religion is one kind of ideology. Communism, socialism, fascism, secular humanism -- these are also ideologies. We are all human -- criticizing religion as "man-made" like that's some devastating critique is ridiculous. All ideologies are articulated to an extent by man, even if they reflect non super-natural "truths" like Marxism's materialistic interpretation of history. For the record, I'm the OP that believes Jesus existed and loves his teachings. I do not believe in God -- nor I do believe there is NOT a God -- I'm just indifferent and try to follow Jesus's teaching. If others think him divine, I respect that and their belief in God. I guess that makes me an atheist, but I am wholly opposed to the reductive, anti-religion atheism of the PP.

PP, we know there are plenty of thoughtful atheists like you out there, and who aren't threatened by somebody else's beliefs. Live and let live.

It would be wonderful if there were more religious believers who were not threatened by the very existence of atheists --picking out atheism for special scorn with an irrational vengeance. thinking that atheists are immoral simply because they do not believe in any of the gods of various religions and that human life ends just the way other animals' lives end -- forever.

PS - saying religions is "man-made" is not a criticism -- it's a fact.

Question: Is it a grade school insult to state, without evidence that "everybody tunes you out as childish bullies with nothing substantive to say?"

It sure is nice that not all religious people are like this.

And for the record, I don't think you're immoral, just really obnoxious.

I think she's boring, but not immoral. Boring because the only quivers in her bow are insults and unsubstantiated nonsense she can't even be bothered to defend. I suppose we could debate whether all her insults are somehow immoral, but they're so immature it doesn't seem fair to judge her as an adult.

Who wants to waste time debating insults and substance-free nonsense?

Goodbye all, and I'll come back to this thread if atheist pp comes up with some actual substance we can sink our teeth into.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you can understand his writing, then I'll suggest this - http://www.bu.edu/arion/files/2010/10/Wells_21Sept2010_Layout-1.pdf

similar sentiments found here - The Evolution of God (Wright)

You simply have a belief in a belief system. That is all.

Why do so many atheists, who claim to put so much stock in rationality, resort to grade-school insults to make their points? Do you guys realize that everybody tunes you out as childish bullies with nothing substantive to say?

I'm super sick of atheists like the righteous PP in this thread. They pick out religion for special scorn with an irrational vengeance -- religion is one kind of ideology. Communism, socialism, fascism, secular humanism -- these are also ideologies. We are all human -- criticizing religion as "man-made" like that's some devastating critique is ridiculous. All ideologies are articulated to an extent by man, even if they reflect non super-natural "truths" like Marxism's materialistic interpretation of history. For the record, I'm the OP that believes Jesus existed and loves his teachings. I do not believe in God -- nor I do believe there is NOT a God -- I'm just indifferent and try to follow Jesus's teaching. If others think him divine, I respect that and their belief in God. I guess that makes me an atheist, but I am wholly opposed to the reductive, anti-religion atheism of the PP.

PP, we know there are plenty of thoughtful atheists like you out there, and who aren't threatened by somebody else's beliefs. Live and let live.

It would be wonderful if there were more religious believers who were not threatened by the very existence of atheists --picking out atheism for special scorn with an irrational vengeance. thinking that atheists are immoral simply because they do not believe in any of the gods of various religions and that human life ends just the way other animals' lives end -- forever.

PS - saying religions is "man-made" is not a criticism -- it's a fact.

Question: Is it a grade school insult to state, without evidence that "everybody tunes you out as childish bullies with nothing substantive to say?"

It sure is nice that not all religious people are like this.

And for the record, I don't think you're immoral, just really obnoxious.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you can understand his writing, then I'll suggest this - http://www.bu.edu/arion/files/2010/10/Wells_21Sept2010_Layout-1.pdf

similar sentiments found here - The Evolution of God (Wright)

You simply have a belief in a belief system. That is all.

Why do so many atheists, who claim to put so much stock in rationality, resort to grade-school insults to make their points? Do you guys realize that everybody tunes you out as childish bullies with nothing substantive to say?

I'm super sick of atheists like the righteous PP in this thread. They pick out religion for special scorn with an irrational vengeance -- religion is one kind of ideology. Communism, socialism, fascism, secular humanism -- these are also ideologies. We are all human -- criticizing religion as "man-made" like that's some devastating critique is ridiculous. All ideologies are articulated to an extent by man, even if they reflect non super-natural "truths" like Marxism's materialistic interpretation of history. For the record, I'm the OP that believes Jesus existed and loves his teachings. I do not believe in God -- nor I do believe there is NOT a God -- I'm just indifferent and try to follow Jesus's teaching. If others think him divine, I respect that and their belief in God. I guess that makes me an atheist, but I am wholly opposed to the reductive, anti-religion atheism of the PP.

PP, we know there are plenty of thoughtful atheists like you out there, and who aren't threatened by somebody else's beliefs. Live and let live.

It would be wonderful if there were more religious believers who were not threatened by the very existence of atheists --picking out atheism for special scorn with an irrational vengeance. thinking that atheists are immoral simply because they do not believe in any of the gods of various religions and that human life ends just the way other animals' lives end -- forever.

PS - saying religions is "man-made" is not a criticism -- it's a fact.

Question: Is it a grade school insult to state, without evidence that "everybody tunes you out as childish bullies with nothing substantive to say?"

It sure is nice that not all religious people are like this.

Just go away. Your contempt is jumping off the screen and pretty off topic for this thread. Go start one about atheist persecution and vent there.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you can understand his writing, then I'll suggest this - http://www.bu.edu/arion/files/2010/10/Wells_21Sept2010_Layout-1.pdf

similar sentiments found here - The Evolution of God (Wright)

You simply have a belief in a belief system. That is all.

Why do so many atheists, who claim to put so much stock in rationality, resort to grade-school insults to make their points? Do you guys realize that everybody tunes you out as childish bullies with nothing substantive to say?

I'm super sick of atheists like the righteous PP in this thread. They pick out religion for special scorn with an irrational vengeance -- religion is one kind of ideology. Communism, socialism, fascism, secular humanism -- these are also ideologies. We are all human -- criticizing religion as "man-made" like that's some devastating critique is ridiculous. All ideologies are articulated to an extent by man, even if they reflect non super-natural "truths" like Marxism's materialistic interpretation of history. For the record, I'm the OP that believes Jesus existed and loves his teachings. I do not believe in God -- nor I do believe there is NOT a God -- I'm just indifferent and try to follow Jesus's teaching. If others think him divine, I respect that and their belief in God. I guess that makes me an atheist, but I am wholly opposed to the reductive, anti-religion atheism of the PP.

PP, we know there are plenty of thoughtful atheists like you out there, and who aren't threatened by somebody else's beliefs. Live and let live.

It would be wonderful if there were more religious believers who were not threatened by the very existence of atheists --picking out atheism for special scorn with an irrational vengeance. thinking that atheists are immoral simply because they do not believe in any of the gods of various religions and that human life ends just the way other animals' lives end -- forever.

PS - saying religions is "man-made" is not a criticism -- it's a fact.

Question: Is it a grade school insult to state, without evidence that "everybody tunes you out as childish bullies with nothing substantive to say?"

It sure is nice that not all religious people are like this.

That's it? The one lame attempt to source the claims above--that Jesus never existed and was invented by some unidentified hegemonist--went down in flames. So there's nothing there. No scholarly support, nothing.

How quickly you give up and return to insulting people.

This, my friend, is why everybody tunes you out. To answer your question, it's not an insult, it's a fact. Bonus points for playing the atheist victim card even as you continue to insult people. I wish you could appreciate the irony.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you can understand his writing, then I'll suggest this - http://www.bu.edu/arion/files/2010/10/Wells_21Sept2010_Layout-1.pdf

similar sentiments found here - The Evolution of God (Wright)

You simply have a belief in a belief system. That is all.

Why do so many atheists, who claim to put so much stock in rationality, resort to grade-school insults to make their points? Do you guys realize that everybody tunes you out as childish bullies with nothing substantive to say?

I'm super sick of atheists like the righteous PP in this thread. They pick out religion for special scorn with an irrational vengeance -- religion is one kind of ideology. Communism, socialism, fascism, secular humanism -- these are also ideologies. We are all human -- criticizing religion as "man-made" like that's some devastating critique is ridiculous. All ideologies are articulated to an extent by man, even if they reflect non super-natural "truths" like Marxism's materialistic interpretation of history. For the record, I'm the OP that believes Jesus existed and loves his teachings. I do not believe in God -- nor I do believe there is NOT a God -- I'm just indifferent and try to follow Jesus's teaching. If others think him divine, I respect that and their belief in God. I guess that makes me an atheist, but I am wholly opposed to the reductive, anti-religion atheism of the PP.

PP, we know there are plenty of thoughtful atheists like you out there, and who aren't threatened by somebody else's beliefs. Live and let live.

It would be wonderful if there were more religious believers who were not threatened by the very existence of atheists --picking out atheism for special scorn with an irrational vengeance. thinking that atheists are immoral simply because they do not believe in any of the gods of various religions and that human life ends just the way other animals' lives end -- forever.

PS - saying religions is "man-made" is not a criticism -- it's a fact.

Question: Is it a grade school insult to state, without evidence that "everybody tunes you out as childish bullies with nothing substantive to say?"

It sure is nice that not all religious people are like this.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Don't know the answer, but I agree 100%. I think some may refer to us as Jesuists. Personally, I don't need a label. I aspire to be like Jesus without worshiping him or God.

WHAT?

I don't get "aspiring" to be like any one person - especially someone who lived 2,000 years ago and about whom so little is known -- at least through original writings, as found in the gospels. Why not aspire to be yourself -- being influenced by the people around you as well as numerous admirable figures from history. It seems a little weird to want to take on another person's characteristics. And when it's someone famous, or someone who is one of the most admired people in the world (worshipped, even, by multitudes) it seems like the goal is reflected glory.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you can understand his writing, then I'll suggest this - http://www.bu.edu/arion/files/2010/10/Wells_21Sept2010_Layout-1.pdf

similar sentiments found here - The Evolution of God (Wright)

You simply have a belief in a belief system. That is all.

So an unpublished, probably not peer-reviewed manuscript? Way to knock it out of the park, big guy or big gal.

But hey, I'll read it this afternoon. As I mentioned, I love this stuff.

(And I'm totally capable of reading it because I have an advanced degree and many published, peer-reviewed papers of my own. Say a conservative 30 of my own published, peer-reviewed papers on economics issues, so many that I've lost count and can't be bothered to do a tally on my cv. But don't let that stop you insulting my intelligence, if that's the only card you have to play....)

yeah

Well, it's from here - http://www.bu.edu/arion/

about - http://www.bu.edu/arion/about/

Here you go, hon:

e-Journal Details
Title: Arion
Abbrev: ARION A JOURNAL OF HUMANITIES AND THE CLASSICS
Abbrev: ARION ( UNIVERSITY WIRE )
Alternative: Arion: A Journal of Humanities and the Classics
Alternative: Arion (Boston)
ISSN: 0095-5809
Peer-Reviewed: Yes

It's not that hard to find out this information yourself, especially if you're such a scholar.

OK I read the manuscript. (Pro tip: if you link to a manuscript, people will think it's, you know, a manuscript even if it looks like someone might have been starting to lay it out.)

It's hard to know what to say about this. It's not really a new theory. Rather, it seems to be a rehash of what the author learned about Plato, the Roman pantheon and early Christians during his time at Oxford. (I googled him. Hard to figure out his non-relationship with academia now, but that doesn't mean he's not smart.) So basically, yes. It's well known that Christianity came into being during the rational Roman occupation. While Judaism and Islam arose in more tribal cultures although both benefited from the exchange of ideas by being in trade routes. I first heard this historical synthesis in college a while back and none of this is new, although he expresses it well.

Did you read the paper? Your author says zero, zilch, nada to support your contention that Jesus never existed and some mysterious somebody simply created Jesus to control the masses. Nor does it show a direct link to anybody in the Roman pantheon (not a whisper of Horus' golden you-know-what = immaculate conception).

Instead it describes the very interesting ways in which Jesus was a *break* from the pantheon. Once again, I'm with you that religion can, in the wrong hands, be used to control others. But in terms of the origins of Christianity, this paper doesn't support you.

What this paper also doesn't do in 27 pages is talk about the direction of transmission. Did Christianity grow because Jesus' message appealed to an audience that was ready for monotheism and fewer rules about sacrifice, eating, clothing, et cetera? That wouldn't discredit anything about Jesus or his message. Or did the "somebody" you think "created" Jesus realize they could better "control the masses" with a new synthesis and they seized that opportunity? If so, still waiting to learn who you think this somebody is.

I started skimming-it's long--but pretty sure I didn't miss anything that would have supported your claims. (FWIW, even the author points out that some early Romans thought Christianity's monotheism wasn't strict enough because of the Trinity.)

Interestingly, the author concludes by saying there are two ways of knowing, rational and spiritual, and that we'd be worse off without both. I have no idea what his belief system is even after combing his website, and I suspect none. But that's food for thought. He also doesn't insult anybody in 27 pages, also something for you to ponder.

Anonymous wrote:Don't know the answer, but I agree 100%. I think some may refer to us as Jesuists. Personally, I don't need a label. I aspire to be like Jesus without worshiping him or God.

WHAT?

Anonymous wrote:Ask the civil rights movement whether Christianity was "controlling the masses" when the black church was instrumental to mobilizing people for social justice...

Not PP, but "controlling" is not necessarily bad. In fact, I think religion has mostly been a positive tool for controlling people. Definitely some bad too, but mostly good.

Ask the civil rights movement whether Christianity was "controlling the masses" when the black church was instrumental to mobilizing people for social justice...

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you can understand his writing, then I'll suggest this - http://www.bu.edu/arion/files/2010/10/Wells_21Sept2010_Layout-1.pdf

similar sentiments found here - The Evolution of God (Wright)

You simply have a belief in a belief system. That is all.

Why do so many atheists, who claim to put so much stock in rationality, resort to grade-school insults to make their points? Do you guys realize that everybody tunes you out as childish bullies with nothing substantive to say?

I'm super sick of atheists like the righteous PP in this thread. They pick out religion for special scorn with an irrational vengeance -- religion is one kind of ideology. Communism, socialism, fascism, secular humanism -- these are also ideologies. We are all human -- criticizing religion as "man-made" like that's some devastating critique is ridiculous. All ideologies are articulated to an extent by man, even if they reflect non super-natural "truths" like Marxism's materialistic interpretation of history. For the record, I'm the OP that believes Jesus existed and loves his teachings. I do not believe in God -- nor I do believe there is NOT a God -- I'm just indifferent and try to follow Jesus's teaching. If others think him divine, I respect that and their belief in God. I guess that makes me an atheist, but I am wholly opposed to the reductive, anti-religion atheism of the PP.

PP, we know there are plenty of thoughtful atheists like you out there, and who aren't threatened by somebody else's beliefs. Live and let live.