Anonymous
11/04/2016 12:07
Subject: Intimacy vs sex-- which is more important?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:yes, don't we all?Anonymous wrote:This is exactly what I am saying.... men expect what they ask for.
Really?Anonymous wrote:Their drive does not correlate to what they ask for
not sure your point, of course there is some variation within any groupAnonymous wrote:10 men with the same sex drive want different things... frequency.
yes. Now let's assume that what he is asking for remains pretty consistent over time.Anonymous wrote:If they get what they ask for... 1x a week/1x a day/1x a month... they are happy.
yes. And if that were the case before marriage, the couple splits up long before any weddingAnonymous wrote:If they don't get what they ask for they are unhappy.
I don't see too many DHs complaining that, with an infant in the house, they are down from 3X to 1X per week. So that is a strawman argument. Look beyond that 12 month blip and then look at who's expectations are reasonable.Anonymous wrote:But, if they change their expectation, like most evolved humans, they can adapt and change their expectation... their expectation is not
biological and not linked to drive. So when the baby comes, if they still expect sex 3 times a week and get it once a week, they are unhappy.
yesAnonymous wrote:If they expect it once a week and get it they are happy.
Take the following prototypical scenario:Anonymous wrote:It has nothing to do with drive, it has to do with expectation.
- man's drive remains constant (ie, not a spike upward in drive)
- couple has a satisfying sexlife before marriage (otherwise, they would never marry)
- years into the marriage, frequency decreases, he is not satisfied
So the drive isn't changed, but the frequency has. You propose he adjust his expectations downward. Why is that? The couple has a successful history of satisfying sex, the more obvious solution seems to return to the frequency that was more satisfying.
Anonymous wrote:Successful marriages are adaptable, unsuccessful marriages try to swim upstream and wonder why the stream won't change directions
Agree 100%. But you insist that HE adapt. And why is THAT the answer? I can think of many ways SHE could adapt, or the marriage itself could adapt, that would be more satisfying to his unchanged sex drive.
No we don't all expect what we ask for... entitled people expect everything they ask for ... humble people expect very little.
Sex drive and amount of sex that men ask for is not correlated. Plain and simple. You ask for sex because of your expectation not because of your drive.
Consistent over time is an unrealistic expectation... just like expecting that life will never change. That is why couples that adapt well to change are the most successful. Rigid people are not successful in many facets of life, but mostly relationships.
You believe there is a definition of "reasonable"... many men would think 1 time a week with toddlers is reasonable, some men don't think it is reasonable. Sex drive does not determine what a man (or woman) thinks is reasonable. You think X is reasonable.. it is your expectation that is making you unhappy.
You keep going back to sex drive. It has nothing to do with drive, it has to do with expectation. your expectation is that nothing will change after marriage/kids/age/weight gain/stress.... you want nothing to change, yet everything is changing. You can't adapt, your set expectation that are not flexible... you create your own unhappiness.
You are saying your wife has not adapted... she still sleeps in on Saturday and Sundays, naps in the afternoon, stays out late partying with friends, shops the same amount, goes to happy hour the same amount and works out the same amount and sees her friends the same amount and her expectation before marriage are the same...you do the same amount of planing of dates, gifts, etc.
She has adapted, she just has not adapted in the way you want her to change.
Of course not, only an insane person would expect everything after marriage to be exactly the same as before marriage.
Men are not the only ones that are rigid... women get pissy when they realize they might have to work (if they thought they wouldn't) or have less children or any other "expectation" they had before marriage that is unmet.... like men continuing to court them the way they did before marriage.... or put their clothes in the hamper and not next to it or not watch football all day Saturday and Sunday. Expectation....
Well you are full of it. There are marriages where the woman has higher sex drive. Your answer is just you being entitled.
Anonymous
11/04/2016 12:03
Subject: Re:Intimacy vs sex-- which is more important?
Anonymous
11/04/2016 12:00
Subject: Intimacy vs sex-- which is more important?
Anonymous wrote:yes, don't we all?Anonymous wrote:This is exactly what I am saying.... men expect what they ask for.
Really?Anonymous wrote:Their drive does not correlate to what they ask for
not sure your point, of course there is some variation within any groupAnonymous wrote:10 men with the same sex drive want different things... frequency.
yes. Now let's assume that what he is asking for remains pretty consistent over time.Anonymous wrote:If they get what they ask for... 1x a week/1x a day/1x a month... they are happy.
yes. And if that were the case before marriage, the couple splits up long before any weddingAnonymous wrote:If they don't get what they ask for they are unhappy.
I don't see too many DHs complaining that, with an infant in the house, they are down from 3X to 1X per week. So that is a strawman argument. Look beyond that 12 month blip and then look at who's expectations are reasonable.Anonymous wrote:But, if they change their expectation, like most evolved humans, they can adapt and change their expectation... their expectation is not
biological and not linked to drive. So when the baby comes, if they still expect sex 3 times a week and get it once a week, they are unhappy.
yesAnonymous wrote:If they expect it once a week and get it they are happy.
Take the following prototypical scenario:Anonymous wrote:It has nothing to do with drive, it has to do with expectation.
- man's drive remains constant (ie, not a spike upward in drive)
- couple has a satisfying sexlife before marriage (otherwise, they would never marry)
- years into the marriage, frequency decreases, he is not satisfied
So the drive isn't changed, but the frequency has. You propose he adjust his expectations downward. Why is that? The couple has a successful history of satisfying sex, the more obvious solution seems to return to the frequency that was more satisfying.
Anonymous wrote:Successful marriages are adaptable, unsuccessful marriages try to swim upstream and wonder why the stream won't change directions
Agree 100%. But you insist that HE adapt. And why is THAT the answer? I can think of many ways SHE could adapt, or the marriage itself could adapt, that would be more satisfying to his unchanged sex drive.
No we don't all expect what we ask for... entitled people expect everything they ask for ... humble people expect very little.
Sex drive and amount of sex that men ask for is not correlated. Plain and simple. You ask for sex because of your expectation not because of your drive.
Consistent over time is an unrealistic expectation... just like expecting that life will never change. That is why couples that adapt well to change are the most successful. Rigid people are not successful in many facets of life, but mostly relationships.
You believe there is a definition of "reasonable"... many men would think 1 time a week with toddlers is reasonable, some men don't think it is reasonable. Sex drive does not determine what a man (or woman) thinks is reasonable. You think X is reasonable.. it is your expectation that is making you unhappy.
You keep going back to sex drive. It has nothing to do with drive, it has to do with expectation. your expectation is that nothing will change after marriage/kids/age/weight gain/stress.... you want nothing to change, yet everything is changing. You can't adapt, your set expectation that are not flexible... you create your own unhappiness.
You are saying your wife has not adapted... she still sleeps in on Saturday and Sundays, naps in the afternoon, stays out late partying with friends, shops the same amount, goes to happy hour the same amount and works out the same amount and sees her friends the same amount and her expectation before marriage are the same...you do the same amount of planing of dates, gifts, etc.
She has adapted, she just has not adapted in the way you want her to change.
Of course not, only an insane person would expect everything after marriage to be exactly the same as before marriage.
Men are not the only ones that are rigid... women get pissy when they realize they might have to work (if they thought they wouldn't) or have less children or any other "expectation" they had before marriage that is unmet.... like men continuing to court them the way they did before marriage.... or put their clothes in the hamper and not next to it or not watch football all day Saturday and Sunday. Expectation....
Anonymous
11/04/2016 08:45
Subject: Intimacy vs sex-- which is more important?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
What if you can't have sex for health reasons, but you can do other things. Both of you still want to have sex with each other and it's apparent. Is intimacy still possible?
I think it is. For me, a big part of the link between sex and intimacy is that my wife's desire to have sex with me signals her love for me in a way that convinces me of that love on an emotional level. I can know intellectually that if she cooks me a nice meal, it's a sign of her love; but it's not nearly as visceral as what happens when we have sex together. If she turns down sex because she can't be bothered, that's a very negative signal. That negativity isn't really present when her reasons for not wanting to have sex with me are clearly not a choice. If she showed me her desire even if sex wasn't possible, that would be emotionally convincing to me that she still loved me.
This all makes sense to me. Thanks for that.
Anonymous
11/04/2016 08:38
Subject: Intimacy vs sex-- which is more important?
yes, don't we all?Anonymous wrote:This is exactly what I am saying.... men expect what they ask for.
Really?Anonymous wrote:Their drive does not correlate to what they ask for
not sure your point, of course there is some variation within any groupAnonymous wrote:10 men with the same sex drive want different things... frequency.
yes. Now let's assume that what he is asking for remains pretty consistent over time.Anonymous wrote:If they get what they ask for... 1x a week/1x a day/1x a month... they are happy.
yes. And if that were the case before marriage, the couple splits up long before any weddingAnonymous wrote:If they don't get what they ask for they are unhappy.
I don't see too many DHs complaining that, with an infant in the house, they are down from 3X to 1X per week. So that is a strawman argument. Look beyond that 12 month blip and then look at who's expectations are reasonable.Anonymous wrote:But, if they change their expectation, like most evolved humans, they can adapt and change their expectation... their expectation is not
biological and not linked to drive. So when the baby comes, if they still expect sex 3 times a week and get it once a week, they are unhappy.
yesAnonymous wrote:If they expect it once a week and get it they are happy.
Take the following prototypical scenario:Anonymous wrote:It has nothing to do with drive, it has to do with expectation.
- man's drive remains constant (ie, not a spike upward in drive)
- couple has a satisfying sexlife before marriage (otherwise, they would never marry)
- years into the marriage, frequency decreases, he is not satisfied
So the drive isn't changed, but the frequency has. You propose he adjust his expectations downward. Why is that? The couple has a successful history of satisfying sex, the more obvious solution seems to return to the frequency that was more satisfying.
Anonymous wrote:Successful marriages are adaptable, unsuccessful marriages try to swim upstream and wonder why the stream won't change directions
Agree 100%. But you insist that HE adapt. And why is THAT the answer? I can think of many ways SHE could adapt, or the marriage itself could adapt, that would be more satisfying to his unchanged sex drive.
Anonymous
11/04/2016 08:31
Subject: Intimacy vs sex-- which is more important?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I feel no connection without sex. If I'm not getting regular sex or my wife goes long bouts of not wanting sex I withdraw emotionally. Kind of counter-productive but I can't help the way I feel.
38 year old male
Yup. For men, intimacy results from sex (doesn't have to result, but won't result without it). Take away the sex, the intimacy evaporates.
For women, sex results from intimacy. Take away the intimacy, the sex evaporates.
This, x1000. The core difference between men and women in terms of sex. But once the sex evaporates, it is likely to materialize elsewhere for one, the other, or both.
Take away sex and intimacy dies.
What if you can't have sex for health reasons, but you can do other things. Both of you still want to have sex with each other and it's apparent. Is intimacy still possible?
I think it is. For me, a big part of the link between sex and intimacy is that my wife's desire to have sex with me signals her love for me in a way that convinces me of that love on an emotional level. I can know intellectually that if she cooks me a nice meal, it's a sign of her love; but it's not nearly as visceral as what happens when we have sex together. If she turns down sex because she can't be bothered, that's a very negative signal. That negativity isn't really present when her reasons for not wanting to have sex with me are clearly not a choice. If she showed me her desire even if sex wasn't possible, that would be emotionally convincing to me that she still loved me.
Anonymous
11/04/2016 07:22
Subject: Intimacy vs sex-- which is more important?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I feel no connection without sex. If I'm not getting regular sex or my wife goes long bouts of not wanting sex I withdraw emotionally. Kind of counter-productive but I can't help the way I feel.
38 year old male
Yup. For men, intimacy results from sex (doesn't have to result, but won't result without it). Take away the sex, the intimacy evaporates.
For women, sex results from intimacy. Take away the intimacy, the sex evaporates.
This, x1000. The core difference between men and women in terms of sex. But once the sex evaporates, it is likely to materialize elsewhere for one, the other, or both.
Take away sex and intimacy dies.
What if you can't have sex for health reasons, but you can do other things. Both of you still want to have sex with each other and it's apparent. Is intimacy still possible?
Anonymous
11/04/2016 07:19
Subject: Intimacy vs sex-- which is more important?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
You are pretty clueless about men's sex drive. People don't even notice a 10% difference of anything! Read this
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.186.5369&rep=rep1&type=pdf
If you had to ascribe a measurement, it is more like 100% (ie, average man's sex drive is double the average woman's)
Why do you keep going back to drive when the real goal is satisfaction. Drive and frequency does not correlate to satisfaction.
also, it has nothing to do with intimacy.
Well the research paper I linked directly refutes your notion that is just about social conditioning. The paper even provides examples where the male sex drive eclipses strong social conditioning which should oppose sex. (read the section "Sacrificing Resources to Get Sex").
Agree the goal is satisfaction. And sounds like you agree with the male's biological drive for sex.
What makes you think that sufficient quantities of ___ (fill in the blank, non-sexual) would ever satisfy this proven biological drive for sex?
"Now suppose one of you fathers is asked by his son for a fish; he will not give him a snake instead of a fish, will he?"
This is exactly what I am saying.... men expect what they ask for. Their drive does not correlate to what they ask for ... 10 men with the same sex drive want different things... frequency.
If they get what they ask for... 1x a week/1x a day/1x a month... they are happy.
If they don't get what they ask for they are unhappy.
But, if they change their expectation, like most evolved humans, they can adapt and change their expectation... their expectation is not biological and not linked to drive. So when the baby comes, if they still expect sex 3 times a week and get it once a week, they are unhappy.
If they expect it once a week and get it they are happy.
It has nothing to do with drive, it has to do with expectation.
Successful marriages are adaptable, unsuccessful marriages try to swim upstream and wonder why the stream won't change directions.
Anonymous
11/04/2016 07:11
Subject: Intimacy vs sex-- which is more important?
Anonymous wrote:
You are pretty clueless about men's sex drive. People don't even notice a 10% difference of anything! Read this
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.186.5369&rep=rep1&type=pdf
If you had to ascribe a measurement, it is more like 100% (ie, average man's sex drive is double the average woman's)
Why do you keep going back to drive when the real goal is satisfaction. Drive and frequency does not correlate to satisfaction.
also, it has nothing to do with intimacy.
Well the research paper I linked directly refutes your notion that is just about social conditioning. The paper even provides examples where the male sex drive eclipses strong social conditioning which should oppose sex. (read the section "Sacrificing Resources to Get Sex").
Agree the goal is satisfaction. And sounds like you agree with the male's biological drive for sex.
What makes you think that sufficient quantities of ___ (fill in the blank, non-sexual) would ever satisfy this proven biological drive for sex?
"Now suppose one of you fathers is asked by his son for a fish; he will not give him a snake instead of a fish, will he?"
Anonymous
11/04/2016 06:29
Subject: Intimacy vs sex-- which is more important?
You are pretty clueless about men's sex drive. People don't even notice a 10% difference of anything! Read this
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.186.5369&rep=rep1&type=pdf
If you had to ascribe a measurement, it is more like 100% (ie, average man's sex drive is double the average woman's)
Why do you keep going back to drive when the real goal is satisfaction. Drive and frequency does not correlate to satisfaction.
also, it has nothing to do with intimacy.
Anonymous
11/04/2016 06:26
Subject: Intimacy vs sex-- which is more important?
Anonymous wrote:Moron who keeps saying "men are socialized to" needs to shut up and go away. Nobody gives a shit about your asinine academic theories.
You can't handle the truth.
That is why an enormous amount of marriages are failing and 70% of men cheat.
Then they grow up and realize how good they had it.
You sound like a puss.
Anonymous
11/04/2016 06:25
Subject: Re:Intimacy vs sex-- which is more important?
Anonymous wrote:More than the next guy
Are you really that stupid ? Sex with my wife is a fantastic experience that I wish to participate in as frequently as possible. Don't know what other couples do, don't care. I don't compare notes with other guys , except to bitch when I ain't gettin any.
Exactly, then when they find out you are bitching about once or twice a week, they tell you that's pretty good with little kids, then you feel better.
Sorry, but I doubt you are really in touch with your feelings.
Anonymous
11/04/2016 05:55
Subject: Intimacy vs sex-- which is more important?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I never said women are morally superior. There are plenty of woman who were socialized to use sex to get what they want. If you aren't pretty, skinny, good in bed ... you will never catch a good man.
Also when men were socialize in an experiment to think once a week was in the 90th percentile, and they got it once a week, they rated their marriage as happy, if they got it 3 times a week they rated their marriage as far superior. When men were socialized in an experiment to think 4 times a week was in the 90th percentile and they got it once a week they rated their marriage as unhappy/dissatisfying and 3 times a week as okay/good.. not happy or superior.
Men just want to believe they are getting more than the next guy and that is NOT biology.
Here are links about the sex drive of Men > Women:
https://kinseyconfidential.org/men-sex-women/
http://www.webmd.com/sex/features/sex-drive-how-do-men-women-compare#1
Note that social conditioning is not a factor in any of this analysis. I stick to my assertion that biology explains sex is far more important to men than women, irrespective of what the next guy is getting.
I dispute your statement about conditioning. Link to that experiment please? 15 minutes of Googling turned up nothing.
One article on the web is not going to explain human sexuality to you. You need to take a graduate level course or 5 and read about 20 research cases. You need to understand different cultures and their norms to sex... Egypt, S. American cultures, African nations, vs American and you will see nothing about courtship is biological. You need to study sexual activity in jails, in families, among heterosexuals and homosexuals. This is not just 1 article explaining how you work.
there is sexuality, sexual norms, sexual preference, sexual orientation... none of those are the same... ect... it's complicated.
Courtship =/= mating
sex =/= to intimacy
You have your limited experience as a white male American and you think it is biological, but it isn't. It is subconscious.... since you have not been educated enough to understand yourself consciously. But it is not biological.
Men sex drive is (moderately, about 10%) greater than women but there is no link to fulfilling that sex drive a certain amount of times a week and happiness/intimacy/fullfillment.
You are pretty clueless about men's sex drive. People don't even notice a 10% difference of anything! Read this
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.186.5369&rep=rep1&type=pdf
If you had to ascribe a measurement, it is more like 100% (ie, average man's sex drive is double the average woman's)
Anonymous
11/03/2016 23:30
Subject: Intimacy vs sex-- which is more important?
Moron who keeps saying "men are socialized to" needs to shut up and go away. Nobody gives a shit about your asinine academic theories.
Anonymous
11/03/2016 19:42
Subject: Re:Intimacy vs sex-- which is more important?
More than the next guy
Are you really that stupid ? Sex with my wife is a fantastic experience that I wish to participate in as frequently as possible. Don't know what other couples do, don't care. I don't compare notes with other guys , except to bitch when I ain't gettin any.