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Anonymous wrote:There are some weird assumptions in this post. We don't live in DC yet we still save 100k for retirement, 45k for college, 1000 a month on kids activities, 4K on kids summer camp, 30-40k on travel. I'm not sure why you think this lifestyle is particular to DC or NY.

Uh, maybe because that describes a very high HHI? That's not the norm anywhere.

Isn't it what the OP and PPs are talking about?

No, OP is describing middle class people who live in much lower cost of living towns.

She mentioned herself - saving enough for investments to spit off 250k a year in interest for 30 years as well as saving for college and living well - as emblematic of DC couples. I and other PPs are saying there are plenty of affluent communities around the country where this is so as well. It's not unique to some supposed ideal of DC frugality at all.

Well, OP should come back and explain, but it sounded to me that she did not mean affluent families. Plus, DC has a huge over-concentration of affluent families. HHIs of 300K are not common in most places the way they are here.

I agree with you. OP should clarify, but I interpreted this to be a comparison btw DC and "real America", not a comparison btw DC and NYC, SF, etc. The question raised in the OP was whether others agreed with the premise that lower-income "Real America" folks save less (retirement, kids' college, etc.) than do higher-income yuppie folks.

I am the first PP quoted here and I am living in an area you would call "real America." Not a big city. Still, there are affluent and rich people here as well. You can find them anywhere.

Anonymous wrote:I just had my yearly gathering with 6 friends from college.
They live throughout the country: Maine, New Hampshire, Bellevue WA, Albany NY etc.
Each of them has a graduate degree.
However, I'm the only one who works full time and the rest are pretty determined to never work
full time again. They have kids and they don't want the stress of having two spouses both working.
However, I work full time primarily because I'm paranoid about not having enough saved for retirement.
I'd also like to pay for my kids to go to college.
My husband probably makes three times what any of their husbands does and yet I'm the one most worried about money.

I wonder though, am I just a victim of my surroundings here in DC? The ones that says "you can never save enough
for college or retirement! You must scrimp and save and work hard. You must have a net work that spins
off $250K a year for 30 years in retirement. You must be able to pay cash for a decade of nursing home care later in life. You must be
able to fund your kids' college educations".

My friends elsewhere seem to be quite at peace with maybe saving $18K a year into a 401K. If that. They are enjoying
a much quieter and easier life in the here and now. They trust that their kids will go to state schools for college or (other colleges
that give scholarships) and will get scholarships for top grad schools (because that is what they themselves did and it worked out very well).

Can anyone else relate?
I feel like I've bought in to the NW DC hamster wheel mentality and I wonder if it's necessary.

While I don't live in Northern Virginia anymore, I will say that I am/was more like your friends in other places than I am like you. So, I do think there are some of your friends' types in DC-land. Being a SAHM, I probably saw more of them than I did of high-powered two career couple families. But I agree that part of living in the DC area or other competitive, high-income places is the pressure to do more, make more, get into the best college, get the high-powered job, etc. Those areas also attract a lot of Type-A personalities that are suited to that lifestyle.

I, however, am Type-B and don't feel like I need the best of everything or even the best of anything. Don't get me wrong, we are saving for retirement, and we plan to pay for our kids' college educations - hopefully in-state schools. But after quitting my job after kid number 3, I, too, am pretty much done working in the corporate world. And I, too, have a graduate degree. Life is hectic enough taking care of a household, 3 kids, and a dog, handling the finances, planning our vacations, cooking dinner each night, etc. is enough. I'd rather stay at a Hampton Inn and not work than stay at the Ritz Carlton and work, if that makes sense. My husband made $120K when we left the DC area 5 years ago, which many people on DCUM think is hardly anything. But when you're not paying daycare or needing to commute or buy work clothes, it's not that bad. And we still managed to do the big things - saved for retirement and saved for college. But in order to be a SAHM, we lived in an old 1950s ranch house, shopped at discount stores and thrift stores, kids went to public schools, and will probably go to public colleges. We now moved to an area that has a lower cost of living, but truthfully, we just got a bigger, newer house than our small ranch in NoOVA, so our cost of living hasn't really gone down, and our lifestyle is the same. That lifestyle is/was good enough for me both in the DC area and outside it. I know it's not for everyone, though.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have noticed that, compared to my friends from my medium-sized hometown in the Midwest, I definitely have the smallest and oldest house. Their houses are much newer, nicer, and bigger. They also seem to take great tropical vacations every winter.

But I have a question for all the posters above -- how would you have any way of knowing whether your friends have saved much for retirement, or what their salaries all?

Op here. Either because we've directly talked about it (both about salaries and retirement savings/plans---these very are good friends) or because their salaries are public knowledge or they work in the same field that I do. It's not hard to guesstimate a salary. I.e. I'm a nurse. I can pretty accurately guess what another nurse makes.
But mostly it's because we've shared this info with each other.

That's interesting to hear! I have no clue what any of my family members or friends makes or has invested. My parents were always of the view that you cannot discuss these things. As a result, for example, I have no clue how much my mom has to live on when she retires (she's 71 years old and still loves her career). She seems to have a fair bit of money, but I have no way of knowing (and definitely cannot ask her.) I see she has tons of binders from various investment firms in her home office closet (presumably containing statements), and know she's very smart, but I have no clue.

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Anonymous wrote:There are some weird assumptions in this post. We don't live in DC yet we still save 100k for retirement, 45k for college, 1000 a month on kids activities, 4K on kids summer camp, 30-40k on travel. I'm not sure why you think this lifestyle is particular to DC or NY.

Uh, maybe because that describes a very high HHI? That's not the norm anywhere.

Isn't it what the OP and PPs are talking about?

No, OP is describing middle class people who live in much lower cost of living towns.

She mentioned herself - saving enough for investments to spit off 250k a year in interest for 30 years as well as saving for college and living well - as emblematic of DC couples. I and other PPs are saying there are plenty of affluent communities around the country where this is so as well. It's not unique to some supposed ideal of DC frugality at all.

Well, OP should come back and explain, but it sounded to me that she did not mean affluent families. Plus, DC has a huge over-concentration of affluent families. HHIs of 300K are not common in most places the way they are here.

I agree with you. OP should clarify, but I interpreted this to be a comparison btw DC and "real America", not a comparison btw DC and NYC, SF, etc. The question raised in the OP was whether others agreed with the premise that lower-income "Real America" folks save less (retirement, kids' college, etc.) than do higher-income yuppie folks.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are some weird assumptions in this post. We don't live in DC yet we still save 100k for retirement, 45k for college, 1000 a month on kids activities, 4K on kids summer camp, 30-40k on travel. I'm not sure why you think this lifestyle is particular to DC or NY.

Uh, maybe because that describes a very high HHI? That's not the norm anywhere.

Isn't it what the OP and PPs are talking about?

No, OP is describing middle class people who live in much lower cost of living towns.

She mentioned herself - saving enough for investments to spit off 250k a year in interest for 30 years as well as saving for college and living well - as emblematic of DC couples. I and other PPs are saying there are plenty of affluent communities around the country where this is so as well. It's not unique to some supposed ideal of DC frugality at all.

Well, OP should come back and explain, but it sounded to me that she did not mean affluent families. Plus, DC has a huge over-concentration of affluent families. HHIs of 300K are not common in most places the way they are here.

I know for me -- I came from one of the south jersey towns mentioned above; first went to NYC and now DC. While my parents always saved consistently, growing up there was near DAILY talk of layoffs at my kitchen table. And the there were layoffs which happened at age 60 or 58 or whenever when the plan was to work a few more yrs to continue saving, and yet it just wasn't possible to get a new job at that age without having to undertake a huge move. And this was for a father in what DCUM always calls a "marketable" industry -- engineering (it isn't -- not nearly as much as people think bc it is very easy to oursource jobs to others countries where there are very good math skills).

So given that background, I've always fallen into the -- work as hard as you can and earn and invest as much as you can while young bc you just don't know what the market/economy/employability will be like when you're older. Go to NYC or DC if you have to to make money. My friends back home -- still in south jersey -- don't see it that way at ALL. They say -- enjoy it while you can bc who knows how it'll be when you're older.

Not everyone, but I do think there is a contingent of rush now, save now, relax later. Put money in the bank, save for kids education and do all of this so that we can live here for the shortest possible duration and then move on to somewhere less hectic.

This is a good point. People here are deferring gratification. Lots of them have had that habit since long ago and it's the reason they are able to come here, work hard, and leave.

Anonymous wrote:I have noticed that, compared to my friends from my medium-sized hometown in the Midwest, I definitely have the smallest and oldest house. Their houses are much newer, nicer, and bigger. They also seem to take great tropical vacations every winter.

But I have a question for all the posters above -- how would you have any way of knowing whether your friends have saved much for retirement, or what their salaries all?

Op here. Either because we've directly talked about it (both about salaries and retirement savings/plans---these very are good friends) or because their salaries are public knowledge or they work in the same field that I do. It's not hard to guesstimate a salary. I.e. I'm a nurse. I can pretty accurately guess what another nurse makes.
But mostly it's because we've shared this info with each other.

No, but their life goals are different than mine are. They don't care about retiring early, donating to charity or leaving an estate to their children.

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Anonymous wrote:PP again. I grew up in PA, moved to NY when I was in high school, went to college and grad school in Boston and now live in DC (Virginia suburbs). When I was younger, I used to kind of look down at the townies who basically hung out with their same friends from high school in college and beyond. Now I sort of envy them. Their kids are friends. They live close to their families. They may not make a ton of money but they have wonderful lives.

We have a seven figure HHI, live in a beautiful home, drive fancy cars, go on expensive vacations but I am often homesick. We have lots of social outings that we go on but I don't really feel super close to anyone we have met here. I think it is just different when making friends later in life.

Same here. The people from my elementary school in small town Western PA who didn't leave the area are still close friends and their kids are now growing up together. Life just seems so much simpler. The women can afford to stay at home or work part time because the cost of living is so much lower. I guess the grass is always greener.....

It's a bit off topic, but same here. I grew up in the middle of nowhere and moved around for college, grad school, spouse's post-doc, etc, and don't live close any old friends. It's hard to make those close friendships as an adult that are made in high school and college. I have met people, but really, it can be kind of lonely.

+ 1

Interesting perspective. I had the opposite experience, probably because I'm a first generation immigrant. We moved to a small Midwest town when I was almost in high school and I never felt like I fit in, even though I had a few good friends there. I made a ton of friends in college, with whom I'm still in regular touch, and I have a ton of good friends here in the DC area, due to common ethnic background. I'm guessing you, OP, and most of the PPs are white.

Not OP, but PP here. Yes, I'm American. Yours is an interesting perspective as well. Perhaps your common ethnic background is enough to bind you close together. Just as an example, I randomly met someone with whom I had a ton in common (neither of us from this area, but both of us from a similar area of the country) and thought we might become close. But she has a very, very tight group of friends who all went to law school together (that is, they travel internationally together, spend a lot of weekends together, visit each other's families on holidays, etc). I was just never able to really break into the group. And that's totally fine, of course. Just an example of how it's easier to make friends in a setting like college or grad school, and harder after, especially when others already have their primary friends group.

Anyway, sorry to hijack your thread OP.

A PP here-yes I'm white American and one of the things that makes me happy about having left my small town is the lack of diversity there. So yeah, I can see your point.

I think that here, incomes are higher, but so is cost of living and stress.

Not everyone, but I do think there is a contingent of rush now, save now, relax later. Put money in the bank, save for kids education and do all of this so that we can live here for the shortest possible duration and then move on to somewhere less hectic.

My friends in PA aren't as focused on 'getting out' or saving because they see themselves working 5-10 years longer than I do which reduces the stress on your savings quite a bit. I am making and saving a lot more but I also need to live off of that money for a longer time.

I have noticed that, compared to my friends from my medium-sized hometown in the Midwest, I definitely have the smallest and oldest house. Their houses are much newer, nicer, and bigger. They also seem to take great tropical vacations every winter.

But I have a question for all the posters above -- how would you have any way of knowing whether your friends have saved much for retirement, or what their salaries all?

My relatives and friends from my smallish southern city live very differently. It is a God will provide mentality for sure. It can be very up or down. They all have nice houses and boats and other toys when they are flush, then a recession hits and because it's a smallish town, there are no jobs. Everyone has a car repo, foreclosure, whatever on their credit record. There are plenty of men working blue collar jobs who have worked their way up and are making 70-80K plus whatever a wife might bring home--a princely sum down there and enough for all the toys, etc.--and then either overtime gets cut or they throw out their back at 50 and never work again. So be careful what you wish for.

That said, there are plenty of financially conservative people too, who save and scrimp and act more like your typical DCUrbanMom Money And Finances Forum Poster, but they aren't the ones who are flashy so there's nothing to point to.

We live in NoVA, nice house, ton of money towards daycare for two little kids, etc. We save big for retirement, have a good portfolio, etc.

One thing we are NOT doing is saving to bankroll 50k a year -per kid - for ridiculous fancy colleges. I'm a professional and both DH and I went to state schools ("gasp" lol). People in my profession are obsessed with college....but we all work in the same office so.....

Expensive college is not necessary for most people, especially since VA has such excellent public schools. We'll do a 529 but that's it.

Anonymous wrote:I'm from southern NJ (no where near NYC). It's the type of town where people go to HS, go to Rutgers or Rowan/TCNJ or Drew or wherever for college, and then settle down in their hometown or within 20 miles of it. Going to Philly for the work is going to the "big city" -- no one wants that unless they can't find a job in south jersey. If you're well to do, it's bc you're a local business owner of a business that does well or you're a dr -- then you're flashy in your home/car/buying your kids new luxury cars at age 16 etc. to reward them for being such "good kids." Sending your kids to an ivy or OOS other than Penn State or Delaware is looked down upon as if you think the local schools aren't good enough for your child -- including amongst the wealthy business owners/drs; the mantra is -- I went to Rutgers, and I'm doing just fine, why should I waste money on UPenn even if my kid could get in.

So no - they don't have to live conservatively. If you are only sending your kid in-state and will NOT consider any other option and ESP if your kid is good -- highly ranked in his class etc. bc there is significant merit money/almost a free ride to be had in state. Take education savings out of the mix; housing isn't super expensive and some of my HS friends "bought" their childhood homes from their parents -- so I doubt it was market rates; I'm sure they save some for retirement but no one obsesses about saving $1 or $2 million or 18k/yr bc their parents and grandparents didn't do that and did just fine.

People in this area and esp on this site are climbers -- they know what options are out there and they want to try for the best -- be it schools or housing or retirement -- that means saving. When your options are more limited and you don't WANT to seek out better ones, it isn't as necessary to save.

Your first para is so sad and depressing. I'd put a bullet in my brain if I had to live like that.