Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Undocumented workers are here for the same reason every single one of us has $600 phone in their pocket that would cost three times as much if it were made in the US. We like cheap stuff. It raises our standard of living.

As long as we are shipping products and capital across borders, people should be (relatively) free to move for better opportunities as well.

It raises WHOSE standard of living? Yours? Assuming you are already middle class which it sounds like you are. Because American unskilled uneducated workers aren't the ones buying the cheap crap that raises YOUR standard of living. They cant afford it. (And it is all crap!) Maybe what our consumerist greedy country needs is less "cheap" stuff that we dispose of quickly anyway and more better paying jobs to raise the standard of living for ALL AMERICANS?

And quit relying on what is essentially slave labor from under the table illegal workers who are willing to work for pennies and send most of it back home to their countries anyway doing very little for our economy while draining us of resources. Immigration is a must but illegal immigration only benifits the corporations with cheap slave labor and greedy consumerist Americans that want their cheap crap no matter whose back it breaks.

PP, here. Yellow Nectarines are $1.99/lb at Whole Foods this week. How much would the be if native born Americans were picking them?

I would prefer a much more flexible immigration system, so everyone who comes here would be documented.

This cost has to be offset by the costs associated with our support of illegals healthcare (ER rooms) which is shared, they failure of them to pay taxes at a high participation rate, the strain on the school system (I live in AZ and we have to have dedicated English language tutors in all elementary schools), etc. Quite frankly I would be fine with a guest worker program where migrants who worked in the agriculture industry were carefully screened, documented, and tracked on a come and go basis (seasonal). This type of program could be implemented now, forcing those without such documentation to leave due to the inability to work.

I think "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" is for Americans, since we established that that that is important to us as a nation. If other nations share the sentiment, then they are welcome to come up with their own form of government around it.

I don't think America should be open to everyone. I do think we should take in all refugees who are suffering in other countries. It's our duty as moral people.

As far as "undocumented immigrants" -- they do the shit work no documented worker would want to do. It has always been thus. Just look the other way if it bothers you so much.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the first and formost responsibility of any nation state is to protect the welfare of all of its citizens. No matter my personal feelings on undocumented immigrants, undocumented immigration clearly disrupts the labor market for unskilled and uneducated workers in this country.

Sure, I get cheap oranges and chicken breasts, but my fellow Americans lose their jobs and have their wages depressed.

Thus, no matter how noble the efforts of undocumented immigrants to get here, I cannot support it.

That's fine with me, but the focus always seems to be on the illegals who come here, not the businesses that hire them. If you want to stop illegal immigration, crack down on illegal hiring. But somehow both Democrats and Republicans focus their enforcement efforts on those poor people looking for any kind of work, not the businesses that illegally make money off them instead of hiring citizens or legal residents.

This. To be honest, I can't get too worked up about undocumented immigrants; because, I don't see how our economy would function without them. I would prefer if we could figure out a legal path forward, but as it is, the situation doesn't impact me all that much (of course I know it impacts the workers). And I'm a high income person now in California, so I definitely pay much higher taxes in part to support services for these workers.

All of that being said, it's not their fault that they are coming here for better jobs. It is the fault of the employers who hire them illegally, and the system that has chosen to look the other way for so long. Deporting everyone is not realistic...even if it were good policy which I don't think it is. These are people who contribute a lot to the fabric of American society, and we need to acknowledge that. But as a US-born child of legal, well-educated (model) immigrants, I know how hard it is for people to fully accept me as American, let alone my paretns or undocumented workers. So, honestly, I don't see a good policy getting passed in the next few years until there is more of a demographic shift.

To me, guest worker programs are the worst of all worlds economically, because they essentially create a permanent labor underclass that will hurt American workers even more...at least right now Americans are competing for jobs against people who can't legally take them and at least some employers will not hire them. Once they are legally allowed to work but still have very little clout to negotiate better wages and conditions, Americans will be SOL. But I think it's disingenuous to think we can just get rid of 11 million people, most of whom are doing important jobs, and Americans will just easily slot in to replace them. There are so many reasons that's not going to happen. I honestly think a path to citizenship (or at least permanent residency) for the people who are here plus stronger border enforcement and employer crackdowns is the best solution. I know, because I can't think of a single constituency who would like that solution

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ever seen the movie "A Day without a Mexican"? I think illegal immigrants to a large extent, and recent immigrants legal or otherwise, are the foundation of our way of life. They build our homes, prepare and serve our food, deliver our goods, install and fix our appliances, babysit our children and clean up after us everywhere we go.

Without them, we would want to immigrate somewhere else.

Or, without them Americans would do all of the jobs, just like they did before. Only 4% of illegal immigrants do field work. 85% of construction workers are Americans. We have a very high unemployment rate amongst the poor and uneducated that are directly competing with illegal immigrants. We would be absolutely fine.

When is the "before" you're talking about? When corporations imported Chinese and Irish to build the railroads? When the garment industry hired All The Young Eastern European Women? Or maybe when White people went to Africa and brought back slaves to work the fields?

Business has always favored the low-cost, low-accountability solution to labor concerns. If we were so concerned about providing nice jobs for Americans, we wouldn't be hiring undocumented immigrants for our menial work or moving our manufacturing sector abroad.

I agree that it would be nice if we could create jobs that unemployed Americans wanted, but let's not make up stories about the history of American labor.

Someone asked how undocumented workers pay taxes. You can use an SSN, if you have one, or an ITIN, which is an Individual Tax ID Number. Through the ITIN, you can pay your taxes if you are undocumented, which studies show the majority do. They do so because accurate, non-fraudulent tax returns are a good way to show good moral character when applying for citizenship or other immigration benefits. Anyone who is foreign-born must be a Legal Permanent Resident for 5 years before applying for any welfare-related benefit. So, an undocumented person is most certainly not a Legal Permanent Resident, so they don't qualify and don't receive food stamps, for example. The children of the undocumented, if they are enrolled in school, do receive free lunch.

Anonymous wrote:
Ask alabama what happens when you crack down on illegal immigrants.

Spoiler alert, your crops rot because americans are too good for jobs like that

There would be tons of Americans clamoring for jobs like that if they paid 50k a year. As it is, hard to justify back breaking work for 12k a year while someone sits on their ass and earns 100k+ a year marketing/selling those same crops.

I think they are criminals, we are wrong yo consider children born to those here illegally to be citizens and we need stronger measures to get them out and keep them out.

Anonymous wrote:Specifically how do you feel about people sneaking into your country, not paying taxes, using the healthcare system for free,their children getting ESL, free meals and other Amazing programs in public schools, committing crimes against Americans, drug running, babies of undocumented immigrants getting citizenship, etc,etc. I think it is a serious problem. I just visited Yakima WA, and the city is under HUGE strain because of the influx not of legal immigrants, but illegal, undocumented immigrants.

I don't blame the immigrants. The ones to blame are the greedy employers who chose to pay slave wages in order to line their own pockets. That goes for all those individuals who hire illegals for nanny, home repair, yard work, etc. type jobs; not just businesses/corporations that hire undocumented immigrants.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the first and formost responsibility of any nation state is to protect the welfare of all of its citizens. No matter my personal feelings on undocumented immigrants, undocumented immigration clearly disrupts the labor market for unskilled and uneducated workers in this country.

Sure, I get cheap oranges and chicken breasts, but my fellow Americans lose their jobs and have their wages depressed.

Thus, no matter how noble the efforts of undocumented immigrants to get here, I cannot support it.

That's fine with me, but the focus always seems to be on the illegals who come here, not the businesses that hire them. If you want to stop illegal immigration, crack down on illegal hiring. But somehow both Democrats and Republicans focus their enforcement efforts on those poor people looking for any kind of work, not the businesses that illegally make money off them instead of hiring citizens or legal residents.

+1. If Republicans legitimately wanted to quickly stop illegal immigration, they would get serious about mandating E-verify or an equivalent system and sharply fining any business or employer who was out of compliance. If Democrats actually cared about the people fleeing poverty and violence in their native countries, they would crack down on horrible labor practices in poultry plants, farms, etc. Both sides have done an excellent job of painting themselves into a corner when it comes to this issue.

Anonymous wrote:I think the first and formost responsibility of any nation state is to protect the welfare of all of its citizens. No matter my personal feelings on undocumented immigrants, undocumented immigration clearly disrupts the labor market for unskilled and uneducated workers in this country.

Sure, I get cheap oranges and chicken breasts, but my fellow Americans lose their jobs and have their wages depressed.

Thus, no matter how noble the efforts of undocumented immigrants to get here, I cannot support it.

+1 We need safety and citizens who obey our laws more than we need cheap yard work and labor.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Undocumented workers are here for the same reason every single one of us has $600 phone in their pocket that would cost three times as much if it were made in the US. We like cheap stuff. It raises our standard of living.

As long as we are shipping products and capital across borders, people should be (relatively) free to move for better opportunities as well.

It raises WHOSE standard of living? Yours? Assuming you are already middle class which it sounds like you are. Because American unskilled uneducated workers aren't the ones buying the cheap crap that raises YOUR standard of living. They cant afford it. (And it is all crap!) Maybe what our consumerist greedy country needs is less "cheap" stuff that we dispose of quickly anyway and more better paying jobs to raise the standard of living for ALL AMERICANS?

And quit relying on what is essentially slave labor from under the table illegal workers who are willing to work for pennies and send most of it back home to their countries anyway doing very little for our economy while draining us of resources. Immigration is a must but illegal immigration only benifits the corporations with cheap slave labor and greedy consumerist Americans that want their cheap crap no matter whose back it breaks.

PP, here. Yellow Nectarines are $1.99/lb at Whole Foods this week. How much would the be if native born Americans were picking them?

I would prefer a much more flexible immigration system, so everyone who comes here would be documented.

Ask alabama what happens when you crack down on illegal immigrants.

Spoiler alert, your crops rot because americans are too good for jobs like that

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Undocumented workers are here for the same reason every single one of us has $600 phone in their pocket that would cost three times as much if it were made in the US. We like cheap stuff. It raises our standard of living.

As long as we are shipping products and capital across borders, people should be (relatively) free to move for better opportunities as well.

It raises WHOSE standard of living? Yours? Assuming you are already middle class which it sounds like you are. Because American unskilled uneducated workers aren't the ones buying the cheap crap that raises YOUR standard of living. They cant afford it. (And it is all crap!) Maybe what our consumerist greedy country needs is less "cheap" stuff that we dispose of quickly anyway and more better paying jobs to raise the standard of living for ALL AMERICANS?

And quit relying on what is essentially slave labor from under the table illegal workers who are willing to work for pennies and send most of it back home to their countries anyway doing very little for our economy while draining us of resources. Immigration is a must but illegal immigration only benifits the corporations with cheap slave labor and greedy consumerist Americans that want their cheap crap no matter whose back it breaks.

PP, here. Yellow Nectarines are $1.99/lb at Whole Foods this week. How much would the be if native born Americans were picking them?

I would prefer a much more flexible immigration system, so everyone who comes here would be documented.

Anonymous wrote:Illegals pay taxes. I have been illegal TWICE! Paid taxes both times. Can say same about my sister and 2 of my closest friends. We all paid taxes and did the tax return and all. All had SS number of our own, but I know plenty of people with tax payer ID numbers. Don't know anybody who uses somebody else's number. Quickest way to get in trouble.
No speaky English? Big deal. It's not an official language here.
Americans don't speak Spanish though it's 2nd language here and an easy language to learn. I did, why can't Americans learn it and stop calling it the Mexican language.
Breaking the law? What law? The laws of Native Americans? Who broke those? Doesn't count because it was so long ago? The nerve some have.
Many of the Latinos and their ancestors lived in the Americas way before Columbus showed up and before white man started to draw up borders here.
Also, read about all the "good" the USA has done in South and Central America (and elsewhere in the world) to help create the violence people are trying to escape.
You have enough workers? We can't find workers to work for $15-$25 in DC, not to mention to fill the minimum wage positions.
Why not see and read why the illegal immigration is the way it is and who is to blame if you want to blame somebody.
Want to talk about your feeling then talk to your shrink. Illegal immigrants are money for America. They are money for you, OP. You can choose not to see or believe it, but that's why they are here to stay.

my kids work and have worked for 15 or less per hour. i hope there are mass deportations and revocation of birthright citizenship.

Anonymous wrote:I think the first and formost responsibility of any nation state is to protect the welfare of all of its citizens. No matter my personal feelings on undocumented immigrants, undocumented immigration clearly disrupts the labor market for unskilled and uneducated workers in this country.

Sure, I get cheap oranges and chicken breasts, but my fellow Americans lose their jobs and have their wages depressed.

Thus, no matter how noble the efforts of undocumented immigrants to get here, I cannot support it.

That's fine with me, but the focus always seems to be on the illegals who come here, not the businesses that hire them. If you want to stop illegal immigration, crack down on illegal hiring. But somehow both Democrats and Republicans focus their enforcement efforts on those poor people looking for any kind of work, not the businesses that illegally make money off them instead of hiring citizens or legal residents.

Anonymous wrote:My honest opinion? We're all humans, created by God, and all have the human rights to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." What country you came from is secondary to all of that. So if you are pursuing a life and liberty and happiness, and you come to America to do that, far be it from me to begrudge that. Welcome. I am a human being before I am an American. We are brothers and sisters created by God before we are "Americans" and "Colombians" or "Guatemalans," etc.

So you want an American Zone and no borders? What do we call the hemisphere's Schengen? Signed near/in the city of tht name? Original parties were Belgium, France, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, and West Germany. There is a Central America-4 (CA-4) Border Control Agreement between El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras, and Nicaragua.

Are we supposed to join that? WTF is wrong with you PP. If we had something like that many geographic areas outside the USA would be as populated as the Canadian wilderness heading to the arctic circle.