Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I really don't want to derail the thread, but...it is so weird to me when people like PP are condescending about other people not believing in God. I arrived at my agnosticism after deep, prolonged examination and reflection, in addition to a thorough knowledge of the history of not just Christianity, but the other major religions as well. To have someone glibly pronounce that I am not "self-examined" and that if I were, the sole conclusion from that would be belief in a Christian God...it is just astounding.

PP, your unwavering belief that God exists does not make it so. Your belief that all people ultimately will choose religion, and Christianity in particular, if "self-examined" is so unbelievably naive and half-baked that I cannot possibly regard you as a rational, intelligent person.

I can, because in today's society, it's acceptable and possible to be rational and intelligent about most things while dropping when applied it to religion). Also, think about the rational and intelligent people you know who who have done some incredibly irrational or stupid things in their lives. People are not rational all the time and in our society, religion is an area in which irrationality is not only allowed, it is celebrated.

meant to say "it's acceptable and possible to be rational and intelligent about most things while dropping all that when applied to religion."

Anonymous wrote:I really don't want to derail the thread, but...it is so weird to me when people like PP are condescending about other people not believing in God. I arrived at my agnosticism after deep, prolonged examination and reflection, in addition to a thorough knowledge of the history of not just Christianity, but the other major religions as well. To have someone glibly pronounce that I am not "self-examined" and that if I were, the sole conclusion from that would be belief in a Christian God...it is just astounding.

PP, your unwavering belief that God exists does not make it so. Your belief that all people ultimately will choose religion, and Christianity in particular, if "self-examined" is so unbelievably naive and half-baked that I cannot possibly regard you as a rational, intelligent person.

I can, because in today's society, it's acceptable and possible to be rational and intelligent about most things while dropping when applied it to religion). Also, think about the rational and intelligent people you know who who have done some incredibly irrational or stupid things in their lives. People are not rational all the time and in our society, religion is an area in which irrationality is not only allowed, it is celebrated.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I really don't want to derail the thread, but...it is so weird to me when people like PP are condescending about other people not believing in God. I arrived at my agnosticism after deep, prolonged examination and reflection, in addition to a thorough knowledge of the history of not just Christianity, but the other major religions as well. To have someone glibly pronounce that I am not "self-examined" and that if I were, the sole conclusion from that would be belief in a Christian God...it is just astounding.

PP, your unwavering belief that God exists does not make it so. Your belief that all people ultimately will choose religion, and Christianity in particular, if "self-examined" is so unbelievably naive and half-baked that I cannot possibly regard you as a rational, intelligent person.

I whole-heartedly agree with this post. (I'm religious, but follow a different religion than Christianity.)

In some cases, religious people's certainty about their beliefs comes from what they learn in church - that non-religious people are "Lost" in some way and can only be fulfilled through religion. It's a way of making religion seem like the only correct way to live -- and is a way of keeping people in the church.

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Anonymous wrote:So...whenever religious people talk amongst ourselves about stuff like this, I have literally never heard anyone put down atheists or even reference atheists at all.. Not even, "at least I'll feel smug that I wasn't an atheist!" No religious person talks like that, unless they are a cartoon on TV or an actual fanatic. Most people who are believers (and also not fanatic Christian evangelists, which most of us aren't) are happy to just let atheists do their thing and never bring it up.

So when atheists are doing the offhand-condescension move, like, "well I wish I could be dumb enough to believe in god, what a pity I'm not dumb," with the obvious implication that anyone who differs in opinion is dumb, I kinda lose respect for you guys. And I don't see a big difference between you and the evangelists. Just saying.

+1000

I also note the almost militant, detached tone that agnostics here and in other posts take, a deliberate separation from themselves and God, as though they have to really work to keep Him out of their lives. What they don't (yet) understand is the way that God comes to us, lives in us and changes us, through the Holy Spirit. It's not something you constantly have to work at or try to believe, which is what they imply here

To the previous PP, Here's your condescending evidence from the evangelists.

To the pp, you are confused, god doesn't exist, we don't have to keep something out if it doesn't exist in the first place. There is literally no work involved to not believe in god because we are all born not believing in god - it's the default position.

That is not true at all -- in fact, the opposite. We are all born with a "God-shaped" void. We spend our lives trying to fill it; tragically for many, in the wrong way.

Actually, you are both wrong. Some people feel a void that, for them, can effectively be filled by a belief in God. Some people either don't feel that good or do not find it to be filled through belief in God. What is hard about this concept?

There is nothing hard about that concept to understand, it's just that I, personally, do not agree with it. I'm not saying that every person on the earth literally walks around every day saying "I FEEL A VOID. WHAT CAN FILL THAT VOID?" Many (most) people go for years or great stretches of their lives, filling it in different ways and/or ignoring it (thus not being really aware), often being quite happy and even content. But yes, I believe those who are truly self-examined, which includes most people at some point if they are lucky enough to live long enough, will recognize that there is a "void" (for lack of a better word) that cannot be filled by anything except a relationship with the God who created them.

YOu'e making a lot of assumptions there, without any evidence. Why not just say that's how YOU feel, without making unfounded statements about everyone else in the world?

PP is being charitable by going ahead and "truly self-examining" our lives since we have failed to do so.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So...whenever religious people talk amongst ourselves about stuff like this, I have literally never heard anyone put down atheists or even reference atheists at all.. Not even, "at least I'll feel smug that I wasn't an atheist!" No religious person talks like that, unless they are a cartoon on TV or an actual fanatic. Most people who are believers (and also not fanatic Christian evangelists, which most of us aren't) are happy to just let atheists do their thing and never bring it up.

So when atheists are doing the offhand-condescension move, like, "well I wish I could be dumb enough to believe in god, what a pity I'm not dumb," with the obvious implication that anyone who differs in opinion is dumb, I kinda lose respect for you guys. And I don't see a big difference between you and the evangelists. Just saying.

+1000

I also note the almost militant, detached tone that agnostics here and in other posts take, a deliberate separation from themselves and God, as though they have to really work to keep Him out of their lives. What they don't (yet) understand is the way that God comes to us, lives in us and changes us, through the Holy Spirit. It's not something you constantly have to work at or try to believe, which is what they imply here

To the previous PP, Here's your condescending evidence from the evangelists.

To the pp, you are confused, god doesn't exist, we don't have to keep something out if it doesn't exist in the first place. There is literally no work involved to not believe in god because we are all born not believing in god - it's the default position.

That is not true at all -- in fact, the opposite. We are all born with a "God-shaped" void. We spend our lives trying to fill it; tragically for many, in the wrong way.

Actually, you are both wrong. Some people feel a void that, for them, can effectively be filled by a belief in God. Some people either don't feel that good or do not find it to be filled through belief in God. What is hard about this concept?

There is nothing hard about that concept to understand, it's just that I, personally, do not agree with it. I'm not saying that every person on the earth literally walks around every day saying "I FEEL A VOID. WHAT CAN FILL THAT VOID?" Many (most) people go for years or great stretches of their lives, filling it in different ways and/or ignoring it (thus not being really aware), often being quite happy and even content. But yes, I believe those who are truly self-examined, which includes most people at some point if they are lucky enough to live long enough, will recognize that there is a "void" (for lack of a better word) that cannot be filled by anything except a relationship with the God who created them.

YOu'e making a lot of assumptions there, without any evidence. Why not just say that's how YOU feel, without making unfounded statements about everyone else in the world?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So...whenever religious people talk amongst ourselves about stuff like this, I have literally never heard anyone put down atheists or even reference atheists at all.. Not even, "at least I'll feel smug that I wasn't an atheist!" No religious person talks like that, unless they are a cartoon on TV or an actual fanatic. Most people who are believers (and also not fanatic Christian evangelists, which most of us aren't) are happy to just let atheists do their thing and never bring it up.

So when atheists are doing the offhand-condescension move, like, "well I wish I could be dumb enough to believe in god, what a pity I'm not dumb," with the obvious implication that anyone who differs in opinion is dumb, I kinda lose respect for you guys. And I don't see a big difference between you and the evangelists. Just saying.

+1000

I also note the almost militant, detached tone that agnostics here and in other posts take, a deliberate separation from themselves and God, as though they have to really work to keep Him out of their lives. What they don't (yet) understand is the way that God comes to us, lives in us and changes us, through the Holy Spirit. It's not something you constantly have to work at or try to believe, which is what they imply here

To the previous PP, Here's your condescending evidence from the evangelists.

To the pp, you are confused, god doesn't exist, we don't have to keep something out if it doesn't exist in the first place. There is literally no work involved to not believe in god because we are all born not believing in god - it's the default position.

That is not true at all -- in fact, the opposite. We are all born with a "God-shaped" void. We spend our lives trying to fill it; tragically for many, in the wrong way.

Where did you learn that, in Sunday school? Certainly not in science class.

Now I am curious what a god-shaped cookie cutter would look like.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So...whenever religious people talk amongst ourselves about stuff like this, I have literally never heard anyone put down atheists or even reference atheists at all.. Not even, "at least I'll feel smug that I wasn't an atheist!" No religious person talks like that, unless they are a cartoon on TV or an actual fanatic. Most people who are believers (and also not fanatic Christian evangelists, which most of us aren't) are happy to just let atheists do their thing and never bring it up.

There are all sorts of variations on the idea that there are no atheists in foxholes. It comes up repeatedly. I've heard it individually as well as in movies, books, everywhere. There are plenty of religious people who are rather loud about their conviction that dying atheists find god just before death. Surely you have heard this before?

Just because something "comes up" doesn't make it true. Perhaps you've read of this organization http://militaryatheists.org/atheists-in-foxholes/ ?

I assume PP's point isn't that atheists in foxhalls don't exist, it is that the fact that people talk about the concept at all is evidence that some percentage of believers either doubt atheists' sincerity or their morality.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So...whenever religious people talk amongst ourselves about stuff like this, I have literally never heard anyone put down atheists or even reference atheists at all.. Not even, "at least I'll feel smug that I wasn't an atheist!" No religious person talks like that, unless they are a cartoon on TV or an actual fanatic. Most people who are believers (and also not fanatic Christian evangelists, which most of us aren't) are happy to just let atheists do their thing and never bring it up.

So when atheists are doing the offhand-condescension move, like, "well I wish I could be dumb enough to believe in god, what a pity I'm not dumb," with the obvious implication that anyone who differs in opinion is dumb, I kinda lose respect for you guys. And I don't see a big difference between you and the evangelists. Just saying.

+1000

I also note the almost militant, detached tone that agnostics here and in other posts take, a deliberate separation from themselves and God, as though they have to really work to keep Him out of their lives. What they don't (yet) understand is the way that God comes to us, lives in us and changes us, through the Holy Spirit. It's not something you constantly have to work at or try to believe, which is what they imply here

To the previous PP, Here's your condescending evidence from the evangelists.

To the pp, you are confused, god doesn't exist, we don't have to keep something out if it doesn't exist in the first place. There is literally no work involved to not believe in god because we are all born not believing in god - it's the default position.

That is not true at all -- in fact, the opposite. We are all born with a "God-shaped" void. We spend our lives trying to fill it; tragically for many, in the wrong way.

Where did you learn that, in Sunday school? Certainly not in science class.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So...whenever religious people talk amongst ourselves about stuff like this, I have literally never heard anyone put down atheists or even reference atheists at all.. Not even, "at least I'll feel smug that I wasn't an atheist!" No religious person talks like that, unless they are a cartoon on TV or an actual fanatic. Most people who are believers (and also not fanatic Christian evangelists, which most of us aren't) are happy to just let atheists do their thing and never bring it up.

There are all sorts of variations on the idea that there are no atheists in foxholes. It comes up repeatedly. I've heard it individually as well as in movies, books, everywhere. There are plenty of religious people who are rather loud about their conviction that dying atheists find god just before death. Surely you have heard this before?

Just because something "comes up" doesn't make it true. Perhaps you've read of this organization http://militaryatheists.org/atheists-in-foxholes/ ?

Anonymous wrote:So...whenever religious people talk amongst ourselves about stuff like this, I have literally never heard anyone put down atheists or even reference atheists at all.. Not even, "at least I'll feel smug that I wasn't an atheist!" No religious person talks like that, unless they are a cartoon on TV or an actual fanatic. Most people who are believers (and also not fanatic Christian evangelists, which most of us aren't) are happy to just let atheists do their thing and never bring it up.

So when atheists are doing the offhand-condescension move, like, "well I wish I could be dumb enough to believe in god, what a pity I'm not dumb," with the obvious implication that anyone who differs in opinion is dumb, I kinda lose respect for you guys. And I don't see a big difference between you and the evangelists. Just saying.

Most atheists these days were once religious themselves - because they were brought up in a religion. I've never known one to think that their IQ increased when they dropped their beliefs. They do think their knowledge and understanding has increased though. They took the time to think religion through and decided it did not make sense to believe.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have had some pretty bad anxiety about death ever since my mother died a year ago. Watching her die made it very real to put it simply, plus not having the buffer of a generation between me and oblivion makes it seem much closer.

My sister and I have discussed these worries to some extent, but she is Catholic so has that luxury of believing/hoping in an afterlife.

I went to a Catholic mass of my 33-year-old friend, Rob, who died from a blood clot 30 minutes after he proposed to his girlfriend. The priest spent most of the time conducting a normal mass and then explained that we should all be very jealous of Rob because he got to be with God before we did. I wanted to shout out "Maybe God should have run that one by Rob first." It made me hard to understand how anyone could ever truly find comfort from Catholicism. But I tried to bite my tongue, thinking that if this nonsense somehow made Rob's mother or fiancé somehow feel better, it didn't really matter that it made me want to vomit.

OMG, that is horrible. I can't believe anyone would say that.

"For some reason, nothing so infuriates me as the incapacity of seemingly intelligent people to get it through their heads that God doesn't go around this world with his fingers on triggers, his fists around knives, his hands on steering wheels. God is dead set against all unnatural deaths. And Christ spent an inordinate amount of time delivering people from paralysis, insanity, leprosy, and muteness. Which is not to say that there are no nature-caused deaths — I can think of many right here in this parish in the five years I've been here — deaths that are untimely and slow and pain-ridden, which for that reason raise unanswerable questions, and even the specter of a Cosmic Sadist — yes, even an Eternal Vivisector. But violent deaths, such as the one Alex died — to understand those is a piece of cake. As his younger brother put it simply, standing at the head of the casket at the Boston funeral, "You blew it, buddy. You blew it." The one thing that should never be said when someone dies is "It is the will of God." Never do we know enough to say that. My own consolation lies in knowing that it was not the will of God that Alex die; that when the waves closed over the sinking car, God's heart was the first of all our hearts to break."

William Sloane Coffin

IOW, God isn't all powerful, but he is compassionate. All lot of humans are like that. We appreciate them, but we don't worship them and they don't except or demand worship.

My brother died when he was 15 and my mother was able to find profound comfort in the idea that she will once again be reunited with him.

I was not able to find that comfort. I believe he is gone and it definitely changed the flavor of my grief (though we certainly both grieved him, her heart will likely never heal).

I was a burgeoning atheist before he died (who was raised Catholic and was a philosophy and religious studies major). My grief, and my inability to find any peace in what my mother believed, told me that I truly did not believe. What I was beginning to suspect after a deep educational and religious self examination was confirmed via an experience that brought all my true convictions to light.

I find one PP's assertion that an atheist coming to this forum is proof of the void. I would say there is a (at least fairly) universal void in the human experience and that is a quest for meaning. For some people, this void is filled by God, for me, it is filled with a gratitude for having won a statistical lobby and been gifted with existence. It is knowing that what I do with this gift is what defines me, and that I can show my gratitude by making a positive impact on this world and the people in it. And it gives me the confidence to treasure every single minute/second that I have because one day my minutes will run out.

As for the original question. I feel very strongly the human compulsion to hold on very tightly to life. The idea of leaving this world feels like the most intense version of not being invited to a party you want to attend. But I believe that I will be able to accept death with a fair amount of grace if I know that I saw as much as this world as I could, soaked it in and appreciated its beauty, and if I know that I loved as much as I could and served as an example for my peers and children and (hopefully) grandchildren. It doesn't erase the anxiety of knowing I won't see them all grow up, but it helps me to be at peace with it.

Of course this is all theoretical, who knows how you feel at the end until you are at the end?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have had some pretty bad anxiety about death ever since my mother died a year ago. Watching her die made it very real to put it simply, plus not having the buffer of a generation between me and oblivion makes it seem much closer.

My sister and I have discussed these worries to some extent, but she is Catholic so has that luxury of believing/hoping in an afterlife.

I went to a Catholic mass of my 33-year-old friend, Rob, who died from a blood clot 30 minutes after he proposed to his girlfriend. The priest spent most of the time conducting a normal mass and then explained that we should all be very jealous of Rob because he got to be with God before we did. I wanted to shout out "Maybe God should have run that one by Rob first." It made me hard to understand how anyone could ever truly find comfort from Catholicism. But I tried to bite my tongue, thinking that if this nonsense somehow made Rob's mother or fiancé somehow feel better, it didn't really matter that it made me want to vomit.

OMG, that is horrible. I can't believe anyone would say that.

"For some reason, nothing so infuriates me as the incapacity of seemingly intelligent people to get it through their heads that God doesn't go around this world with his fingers on triggers, his fists around knives, his hands on steering wheels. God is dead set against all unnatural deaths. And Christ spent an inordinate amount of time delivering people from paralysis, insanity, leprosy, and muteness. Which is not to say that there are no nature-caused deaths — I can think of many right here in this parish in the five years I've been here — deaths that are untimely and slow and pain-ridden, which for that reason raise unanswerable questions, and even the specter of a Cosmic Sadist — yes, even an Eternal Vivisector. But violent deaths, such as the one Alex died — to understand those is a piece of cake. As his younger brother put it simply, standing at the head of the casket at the Boston funeral, "You blew it, buddy. You blew it." The one thing that should never be said when someone dies is "It is the will of God." Never do we know enough to say that. My own consolation lies in knowing that it was not the will of God that Alex die; that when the waves closed over the sinking car, God's heart was the first of all our hearts to break."

William Sloane Coffin

Anonymous wrote:What are you all going to be about your sins when you die?

Why, leave them behind for you to gossip about when I'm gone, of course! And I promise to leave behind some juicy dirt to dish.

^ "...but NOT about my..." sorry