Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I will do this asap after my big law gig is over. I look at friends in IT, engineering or HR and just don't understand why they stay. The marginally higher income doesn't cover the higher costs.

Jobs. Perhaps not engineering, but other white collar jobs aren't easy to come by in flyover states. Speaking only for myself, I don't stay for the marginally higher income (especially given my income probably isn't even considered marginally higher), but it's very hard to find white collar jobs elsewhere that would pay enough even for the COL in those areas.

While housing costs are lower in other parts of the country, health care, food, cars, those things cost the same. If you own your house outright here, then perhaps you could make it work by selling for a profit and buying a house cheaper in another part of the country. But we have a mortgage here, so if we sold, we aren't at the point (especially with transaction costs and taxes) where we would make enough off the sale to make that work.

Sure, our salary here would qualify for a decent place somewhere else, but we'd be moving. So we'd have to find work somewhere else.

The reason people come to the DC area is that there are a lot of white collar jobs here (due to govt. and the organizations related to govt.) that are difficult to find elsewhere.

I think that a lot of people underestimate how difficult it is to find suitable work in another state or city. I've looked at jobs that utilize my skill set in other regions of the country. They not only are few and far between, but the pay is much lower. And the cheaper COL isn't enough to make that work.

I would love to move down south or out to the southwest, but I'm not sure how to make it happen. I could never live in the midwest because it just gets too cold. I have nothing against the people there or anything, but I can't take hard winters.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Boulder is not cheap. Denver area is on fire in terms of COL going up.
Austin has gotten more expensive and it's not easy to find jobs there...there are jobs but everyone wants to move there, so it's super competitive to land said jobs.
Houston also isn't as cheap as you'd think if you want to live in a nice neighborhood in Houston proper. The suburbs will give you a lot of house for your money -- some more than others -- but then you're dealing with the traffic. Bad traffic. DC bad, I'm not sure, but it's no picnic.
I tried to sell DH on Raleigh. He wasn't buying. He can get a job pretty much anywhere, but finding a job for me would be tough as I work in an industry that is dying pretty much everywhere, but has a lot of niche opportunities in the DC area.

I guess because I'm a DC native I don't get the fixation on how horrible the traffic is, and the cost is because of the unique, wonderful opportunities this area provides. My 80 year old dad, who lived here for 45 years, remarks on the traffic every time he visits from his third tier town. Sure, I can see the traffic bothering an elderly man, but for young or middle aged people, what is this such a fixation? You just plan for it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP, are you talking about Rochester, New York?

Yep!

Anonymous wrote:Boulder is not cheap. Denver area is on fire in terms of COL going up.
Austin has gotten more expensive and it's not easy to find jobs there...there are jobs but everyone wants to move there, so it's super competitive to land said jobs.
Houston also isn't as cheap as you'd think if you want to live in a nice neighborhood in Houston proper. The suburbs will give you a lot of house for your money -- some more than others -- but then you're dealing with the traffic. Bad traffic. DC bad, I'm not sure, but it's no picnic.
I tried to sell DH on Raleigh. He wasn't buying. He can get a job pretty much anywhere, but finding a job for me would be tough as I work in an industry that is dying pretty much everywhere, but has a lot of niche opportunities in the DC area.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Idk. My in laws live in upstate NY. They all live in a nice inner city suburb with beautiful Tudor and craftsman houses dating from the 20s-40s that cost well under 500k. Schools are among the best in the state. They live near a major research university so neighbors tend to be politically liberal and well educated. Commutes are super short and hardly deserve the word. My BIL once let it slip to my DH that he makes well over 500k (way more than us here in DC). My MIL and FIL have a second home in the 1000 islands and my BIL and SIL are thinking about buying in the finger lakes area. They have a country club membership at a golf course considered to be one of the best in the country. There are lots of parks nearby if you like hiking and nature, a world class children's museum, a very good local symphony, lots of festivals in the summer. They often take off for the weekend and go skiing in the Adirondacks. Things that suck: winter if you hate the snow (which I personally don't) and high property taxes. But those taxes are partially what make the schools so good so they say it's hard to complain too much. I've been trying to get my DH to move back but he's a fed so he's reluctant to venture back into the private sector.
[Report Post]

I think a salary of 500K would be highly unusual in Rochester. What does your BIL do? We lived in Rochester for 3 years quite a few years ago. My husband was on a contract with Xerox. It was not renewed so we came here (where it was much easier for both of us to get better jobs). We still have friends in Rochester and they recently told us that we were lucky that we left. Kodak is pretty much dead and Xerox has laid off many employees. Yes, some of them were able to get jobs in that research university you mentioned, but the pay is not as high. Downtown Rochester is nothing to write home about. However, I will give you the fact that the schools are incredible, the houses in certain suburbs (like Brighton) and the city are old and have character, and the parks are nice. And it is close to the Finger Lakes and other recreational areas. But I am not 100% sold that the economy there is doing super well. Again, where does your BIL work and what is his take on the overall economy of the Rochester area?

As for diversity, no it is not nearly as diverse as here. Our experience with restaurants was less than. Maybe it has improved since we left. We did like all the Wegman's stores (which we now have here) and the proximity to Toronto. We did like living there for the most part. The job situation made us leave.

I don't really care about cost and traffic. I care about world class entertainment, ethnic diversity and milder winters.

He's an engineer and the part owner of a small but growing company. I don't want to say which one for fear of outing him His income probably is unusually high for Rochester and actually here in DC too. I only mentioned it to counter the idea that it's only in the coastal cities that people can do really well financially. I think you can find rich people all over the place. Yes the downtown is nothing special and seems to be stagnating. It sounds like many companies have moved outside of the city to avoid high taxes. We did go to a concert at the Eastman Theater once though and I thought that was really nice. There were a couple cute looking cafes down in that area by the Eastman School of Music. We also saw a traveling Broadway show at the Auditorium Center. I've never been but I've heard that Geva Theater is nice as well (maybe I'll put that on my list for the next time we're up in that area). We take our kids to the Strong Museum of Play every time we visit and that is really nice imo. One of the best children's museums I've ever been to. We've been to a bunch of restaurants that I thought can compete with DC fare but are much cheaper. I forget their names off the top of my head but I could look them up if you're interested. I probably sound like a crazy Rochester booster and that's not really my intention. It's more that I think the idea that the left and right coasts are the only places to be and that everything in the middle is best relegated to "fly over" territory is not only unbelievably snobby but also foolishly inaccurate. Rochester just happens to be a smaller city I am familiar with. Shrug.

Me again. I forgot to mention the thing that continually amazes me which is how CHEAP everything is compared to DC and how little traffic there is. My parents in law have season tickets to the Eastman Theater for concerts and they paid under 600 for *really* good seats in the orchestra section. When we went with them that one time, we left 20 minutes before the show which was enough time to drive in to the city, park, and walk in and find our seats. Incredible. You know around here, getting through traffic can be such a nightmare and a huge production. Another time we went to a Rochester Amarks game. It's minor league ice hockey but even so it's so cheap we could afford to get tickets right up against the ice which was really cool. Again, hardly any traffic.

Anonymous wrote:Now rochester sounds ammazing to me. My cousins live in syracuse and are an academic and lawyer. Maybe i'll start looking there! Thanks pp!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP, are you talking about Rochester, New York?

Yep!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:She's right. I live it and live it well.

Her article is better than the other one that was full of whine. She gets it.

+1

Smaller city living is the way to go. Or inner ring suburbs of a smaller city.

Better cost of living than top-tier cities and more amenities and education than small towns.

True! There are plenty of nice lower cost in housing cities to provide a better balance of life.
Minneapolis
Madison, WI
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Boulder
Portland, Maine
Burlington, VT
Austin, TX

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Idk. My in laws live in upstate NY. They all live in a nice inner city suburb with beautiful Tudor and craftsman houses dating from the 20s-40s that cost well under 500k. Schools are among the best in the state. They live near a major research university so neighbors tend to be politically liberal and well educated. Commutes are super short and hardly deserve the word. My BIL once let it slip to my DH that he makes well over 500k (way more than us here in DC). My MIL and FIL have a second home in the 1000 islands and my BIL and SIL are thinking about buying in the finger lakes area. They have a country club membership at a golf course considered to be one of the best in the country. There are lots of parks nearby if you like hiking and nature, a world class children's museum, a very good local symphony, lots of festivals in the summer. They often take off for the weekend and go skiing in the Adirondacks. Things that suck: winter if you hate the snow (which I personally don't) and high property taxes. But those taxes are partially what make the schools so good so they say it's hard to complain too much. I've been trying to get my DH to move back but he's a fed so he's reluctant to venture back into the private sector.
[Report Post]

I think a salary of 500K would be highly unusual in Rochester. What does your BIL do? We lived in Rochester for 3 years quite a few years ago. My husband was on a contract with Xerox. It was not renewed so we came here (where it was much easier for both of us to get better jobs). We still have friends in Rochester and they recently told us that we were lucky that we left. Kodak is pretty much dead and Xerox has laid off many employees. Yes, some of them were able to get jobs in that research university you mentioned, but the pay is not as high. Downtown Rochester is nothing to write home about. However, I will give you the fact that the schools are incredible, the houses in certain suburbs (like Brighton) and the city are old and have character, and the parks are nice. And it is close to the Finger Lakes and other recreational areas. But I am not 100% sold that the economy there is doing super well. Again, where does your BIL work and what is his take on the overall economy of the Rochester area?

As for diversity, no it is not nearly as diverse as here. Our experience with restaurants was less than. Maybe it has improved since we left. We did like all the Wegman's stores (which we now have here) and the proximity to Toronto. We did like living there for the most part. The job situation made us leave.

He's an engineer and the part owner of a small but growing company. I don't want to say which one for fear of outing him His income probably is unusually high for Rochester and actually here in DC too. I only mentioned it to counter the idea that it's only in the coastal cities that people can do really well financially. I think you can find rich people all over the place. Yes the downtown is nothing special and seems to be stagnating. It sounds like many companies have moved outside of the city to avoid high taxes. We did go to a concert at the Eastman Theater once though and I thought that was really nice. There were a couple cute looking cafes down in that area by the Eastman School of Music. We also saw a traveling Broadway show at the Auditorium Center. I've never been but I've heard that Geva Theater is nice as well (maybe I'll put that on my list for the next time we're up in that area). We take our kids to the Strong Museum of Play every time we visit and that is really nice imo. One of the best children's museums I've ever been to. We've been to a bunch of restaurants that I thought can compete with DC fare but are much cheaper. I forget their names off the top of my head but I could look them up if you're interested. I probably sound like a crazy Rochester booster and that's not really my intention. It's more that I think the idea that the left and right coasts are the only places to be and that everything in the middle is best relegated to "fly over" territory is not only unbelievably snobby but also foolishly inaccurate. Rochester just happens to be a smaller city I am familiar with. Shrug.

Anonymous wrote:

Idk. My in laws live in upstate NY. They all live in a nice inner city suburb with beautiful Tudor and craftsman houses dating from the 20s-40s that cost well under 500k. Schools are among the best in the state. They live near a major research university so neighbors tend to be politically liberal and well educated. Commutes are super short and hardly deserve the word. My BIL once let it slip to my DH that he makes well over 500k (way more than us here in DC). My MIL and FIL have a second home in the 1000 islands and my BIL and SIL are thinking about buying in the finger lakes area. They have a country club membership at a golf course considered to be one of the best in the country. There are lots of parks nearby if you like hiking and nature, a world class children's museum, a very good local symphony, lots of festivals in the summer. They often take off for the weekend and go skiing in the Adirondacks. Things that suck: winter if you hate the snow (which I personally don't) and high property taxes. But those taxes are partially what make the schools so good so they say it's hard to complain too much. I've been trying to get my DH to move back but he's a fed so he's reluctant to venture back into the private sector.
[Report Post]

I think a salary of 500K would be highly unusual in Rochester. What does your BIL do? We lived in Rochester for 3 years quite a few years ago. My husband was on a contract with Xerox. It was not renewed so we came here (where it was much easier for both of us to get better jobs). We still have friends in Rochester and they recently told us that we were lucky that we left. Kodak is pretty much dead and Xerox has laid off many employees. Yes, some of them were able to get jobs in that research university you mentioned, but the pay is not as high. Downtown Rochester is nothing to write home about. However, I will give you the fact that the schools are incredible, the houses in certain suburbs (like Brighton) and the city are old and have character, and the parks are nice. And it is close to the Finger Lakes and other recreational areas. But I am not 100% sold that the economy there is doing super well. Again, where does your BIL work and what is his take on the overall economy of the Rochester area?

As for diversity, no it is not nearly as diverse as here. Our experience with restaurants was less than. Maybe it has improved since we left. We did like all the Wegman's stores (which we now have here) and the proximity to Toronto. We did like living there for the most part. The job situation made us leave.

Anonymous wrote:

Idk. My in laws live in upstate NY. They all live in a nice inner city suburb with beautiful Tudor and craftsman houses dating from the 20s-40s that cost well under 500k. Schools are among the best in the state. They live near a major research university so neighbors tend to be politically liberal and well educated. Commutes are super short and hardly deserve the word. My BIL once let it slip to my DH that he makes well over 500k (way more than us here in DC). My MIL and FIL have a second home in the 1000 islands and my BIL and SIL are thinking about buying in the finger lakes area. They have a country club membership at a golf course considered to be one of the best in the country. There are lots of parks nearby if you like hiking and nature, a world class children's museum, a very good local symphony, lots of festivals in the summer. They often take off for the weekend and go skiing in the Adirondacks. Things that suck: winter if you hate the snow (which I personally don't) and high property taxes. But those taxes are partially what make the schools so good so they say it's hard to complain too much. I've been trying to get my DH to move back but he's a fed so he's reluctant to venture back into the private sector.
[Report Post]

I think a salary of 500K would be highly unusual in Rochester. What does your BIL do? We lived in Rochester for 3 years quite a few years ago. My husband was on a contract with Xerox. It was not renewed so we came here (where it was much easier for both of us to get better jobs). We still have friends in Rochester and they recently told us that we were lucky that we left. Kodak is pretty much dead and Xerox has laid off many employees. Yes, some of them were able to get jobs in that research university you mentioned, but the pay is not as high. Downtown Rochester is nothing to write home about. However, I will give you the fact that the schools are incredible, the houses in certain suburbs (like Brighton) and the city are old and have character, and the parks are nice. And it is close to the Finger Lakes and other recreational areas. But I am not 100% sold that the economy there is doing super well. Again, where does your BIL work and what is his take on the overall economy of the Rochester area?

As for diversity, no it is not nearly as diverse as here. Our experience with restaurants was less than. Maybe it has improved since we left. We did like all the Wegman's stores (which we now have here) and the proximity to Toronto. We did like living there for the most part. The job situation made us leave.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:She's right. I live it and live it well.

Her article is better than the other one that was full of whine. She gets it.

+1

Smaller city living is the way to go. Or inner ring suburbs of a smaller city.

Better cost of living than top-tier cities and more amenities and education than small towns.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It helps to be an academic. Then you can live in lovely little college towns that are shielded from the economic chaos that rules the rest of the world. It's a great place to raise kids because everyone is so relaxed and there is no rat race.

* And we know exactly how to dress: khakis, crew neck sweaters, comfy shoes. Tweedy blazers with antelope elbow patches! Never goes out of style!

Very few college towns are actual nice places to live. See: Olean, NY; DeKalb, IL; etc.

Ann Arbor? Charlottesville?

I'd love to live in my lovely little college town, San Luis Obispo CA, but it's really expensive!