Something I have noticed over the years and continue to notice is that kids (not necessarily all, but for the most part) who go to Catholic schools tend to be much more polite and respectful to adults than kids who go to pubic schools. I realize this is a very generalized statement, and I am not claiming this to be a fact based on a large sample study, but this is just something that I observe over and over again.

My kids started out in public. In public it seemed like anything goes. Kids would assume they could call me by my first name, never even attempting the Mrs. XXX. One thing that REALLY bothered me was that the parents would tell the kids to call them by their first name. I insist that my kids address all adults by Mr., Mrs. Dr. etc. But that is difficult to enforce when all the other kids are using first names for adults.

Both of my kids have now been in Catholic for a few years, and it is no longer an issue. EVERYONE uses the polite way to address an adult. It is so much easier to enforce.

The other thing I notice is that the kids from our private are better with eye contact and seem to engage better with adults. They are also more prone to put out their hand for a hand shake during an introduction. These are social skills that are taught in our school (as well as in our home). My daughter was taught how to shake hands in 2nd grade -- firm grip, eye contact. In public you rarely see this social interaction between adults and children and certainly no instruction on proper hand shake.

Now, I am not saying the kids from public are bad people. My kids have great friends from public and they maintain the friendships. But I still cringe when I hear them call the adult by their first name, and to be honest, I try to steer them toward the new friends they have made in our Catholic school for play dates.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why can't we all just recognize and accept that middle school is the worst time of life for a young person and that are universally rotten no matter where you are or how much money you've got?

I thought this was just a fact of life. After reading this thread it is apparent to me that people have other ideas.

Because it's gotten worse and worse over the past decade or so. I'm sure this happens in many school districts, and is definitely happening in MCPS.

I think it's reasonable for parents to expect that if a kid behaves poorly in school, the teacher or principal will have the authority to enforce some negative consequence. There is no such thing as detention, for example. Kids learn really early on that they can win candy or movie parties in ES for 'good' behavior, when in reality, it should just be a given that the kids behave! And, on the other end, they learn that the kids who don't listen, and don't follow the rules suffer ZERO consequences.

MCPS puts a good amount of pressure on the school to not suspend/discipline students. They want principals to keep students in mainstream classrooms, no matter what their past behavior has been.

"Kids these days" is a pretty tired trope. I am curious though why you are so insistent in the ensuring others receive harsh punitive discipline.

Anonymous wrote:Why can't we all just recognize and accept that middle school is the worst time of life for a young person and that are universally rotten no matter where you are or how much money you've got?

I thought this was just a fact of life. After reading this thread it is apparent to me that people have other ideas.

Because it's gotten worse and worse over the past decade or so. I'm sure this happens in many school districts, and is definitely happening in MCPS.

I think it's reasonable for parents to expect that if a kid behaves poorly in school, the teacher or principal will have the authority to enforce some negative consequence. There is no such thing as detention, for example. Kids learn really early on that they can win candy or movie parties in ES for 'good' behavior, when in reality, it should just be a given that the kids behave! And, on the other end, they learn that the kids who don't listen, and don't follow the rules suffer ZERO consequences.

MCPS puts a good amount of pressure on the school to not suspend/discipline students. They want principals to keep students in mainstream classrooms, no matter what their past behavior has been.

Why can't we all just recognize and accept that middle school is the worst time of life for a young person and that are universally rotten no matter where you are or how much money you've got?

I thought this was just a fact of life. After reading this thread it is apparent to me that people have other ideas.

Also if you think good academics is teaching to a standardized test, good luck with that. That is where mcps is heading.

*worse*

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Kids would never get away with that behavior at our private. The problem is that public schools are afraid to discipline kids because of backlash from parents who also are disrespectful. The apple does not fall far from the tree.

From what I have "heard", private school parents can get away with lots of stuff:

http://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/552518.page

Though I agree, apple doesn't fall from the tree, including wealthy parents and their offsprings.

I am not talking about wealthy vs. non-wealthy. I am talking about my particular small Catholic school where kids are very respectful of their elders. No eye rolling happening there.

It's not respect; it's fear.

We pulled our daughter from a Catholic school. Kids were kept in at recess for not heading their papers correctly. It was beyond ridiculous. That "punishment" didn't teach students to respect their teachers. To this day, my daughter has horrible memories of her 3rd grade teacher. And she never got into trouble.

In her school now, there are punishments for misbehavior - and more tolerance for certain behaviors. But classes are under control and when a child misbehaves, s/he is sent out and parents are called. In some cases, restorative practices are used.

With the Catholics, it's all about fear and guilt.

Well, our little Catholic school is the most nurturing environment, and the kids are lovely. There are NO punishments. Sorry to hear you are at a school that has "punishments. You sound tightly wound PP.

not tightly wound - just kicking myself for not putting her in public sooner

Just wait until you start to see gaps in your child's education. It will happen. Catholic schools aren't known for stellar educational practices.

But go on and preach about your nurturing environment - b/c that's all a kid needs, right?

No gaps here. DS is in all honors and AP classes with 4.0 gpa. DD is doing just fine so far. We have already experienced the horrors of public education, and while academics may be good, the culture is such that we chose to get out. And it is just getting worst. Take a look at the threads about Churchill.

Anonymous wrote:We are new to the Bethesda area. We've been here about 3 months and come from a school system that is similarly ranked with a similar socio-economic and racial make-up. My kids can't stop talking about how rude students are to the teachers (tone of voice, eye-rolling, disregarding what they say). This is not our first go-round with middle-school - so it isn't as if I am totally naive about this age group. Our dinners are full or recaps what kids did/said that day -- and about the amount of cursing.

What's up? More importantly, is this being addressed? What can I do about it? It most definitely gets in the way of learning and I can't help but think it also influences the way students treat each other?

Your kids are new to the school, they are still adjusting and are on the outside looking in. They are using the excuse of the kids "are rude" as a way to make it ok to themselves that they are feeling like outsiders still.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Kids would never get away with that behavior at our private. The problem is that public schools are afraid to discipline kids because of backlash from parents who also are disrespectful. The apple does not fall far from the tree.

From what I have "heard", private school parents can get away with lots of stuff:

http://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/552518.page

Though I agree, apple doesn't fall from the tree, including wealthy parents and their offsprings.

I am not talking about wealthy vs. non-wealthy. I am talking about my particular small Catholic school where kids are very respectful of their elders. No eye rolling happening there.

It's not respect; it's fear.

We pulled our daughter from a Catholic school. Kids were kept in at recess for not heading their papers correctly. It was beyond ridiculous. That "punishment" didn't teach students to respect their teachers. To this day, my daughter has horrible memories of her 3rd grade teacher. And she never got into trouble.

In her school now, there are punishments for misbehavior - and more tolerance for certain behaviors. But classes are under control and when a child misbehaves, s/he is sent out and parents are called. In some cases, restorative practices are used.

With the Catholics, it's all about fear and guilt.

Well, our little Catholic school is the most nurturing environment, and the kids are lovely. There are NO punishments. Sorry to hear you are at a school that has "punishments. You sound tightly wound PP.

not tightly wound - just kicking myself for not putting her in public sooner

Just wait until you start to see gaps in your child's education. It will happen. Catholic schools aren't known for stellar educational practices.

But go on and preach about your nurturing environment - b/c that's all a kid needs, right?

I can only speak from my experience, which is based in the Chevy Chase area.

There are three types of parenting styles, some parents are strict with their children and their behavior.

Many kids are raised by their nannies, the parents don't want to cause any distress when they get home and ignore bad behavior because they see their kids only a few hours a day.

The WORST are the extremely liberal parents, work for NPO's, follow every food fad, i.e. gluten, dairy. They give their kids free reign and they are just rude.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP

The school is in a W cluster. I don't get the impression from my kids that it is one group of kids that are the "troublemakers". I said something to a neighbor and he joked that it's because all the kids have parents that are lawyers so the parents/admin are scared of getting sued.

Obviously my kids don't talk about it every night, I was being hyperbolic, but it is the subtext of a lot of stories -- we didn't get to this because kids were.....the teacher couldn't....

From the posts on the board it seems like this is just the culture here - a tweens will be tweens sort of thing. I find that hard to believe though, we are talking about an area a few hours away with similar demographics. I doubt the parenting styles could be that different, but I've been wrong before.

In the previous school teachers were freer with detentions (this is the 3rd time I asked you, see you after school) and deducting points (didn't choose to do that homework, let's not waste the class' time - here is your zero). You can have discipline without being iron-fisted, in an ideal world kids will be engaged and want to pay attention and learn, but even without that, the fair and kind teachers often have the better behaved classrooms because kids want to please them. I have asked my kids about the teachers and they said that the teachers are respectful to the kids.

But, my actual question is - can I do anything? Talk to anyone? Is this an issue being addressed in any of the schools? I looked at the code of conduct and this type student behavior appears to be against it, and it seems as if it is in the teachers' power to appropriately correct it.

This, quite simply, does not happen much anymore in MCPS. There is a good deal of pressure on teachers to not 'punish' kids. It reflects poorly on the teacher (unfairly so, IMO) if they're disciplining kids too much. The kids understand that and realize they can get away with all sorts of bad behavior.

I have family members who have been teachers in MCPS for decades and they complain about this often.

OP, yes...this and the wealth and preponderance of lawyers have really made it bad. It is very disturbing. I suggest you talk to your principal and to the teacher(s) about it. You may get nowhere, but at least you'll have tried. You never know... Sometimes the administrators and teachers need to know that parents don't want to deal with these issues. I personally have found it so frustrating to deal with MCPS and the attitudes here. This is another reason more families are trying to opt out and homeschool or go to parochial or private schools. The kids are much better behaved.

Do tell us...WHERE did you move from? Sounds like a great place.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's because there's basically no discipline system anymore. The code of conduct is laughable. So they know that there won't be consequences for their actions so they push the boundaries. If a teacher dares to discipline the parent complains to admin and threatens lawsuits. So now this is the status of our schools.

This. I hear it from ES and HS teachers as well. ES focus on positive behavior reinforcement and kids learn pretty early on that there are no consequences to their actions and that teachers are really not going to follow through with any form of punishment.

Yes. My kids complained about this. It is frustrating for kids who follow the rules to feel that there are no consequences for those who don't. We moved from our Bethesda public to private and a nice side benefit is the respectful, kind atmosphere at both the elementary and middle schools.

Anonymous wrote:OP

The school is in a W cluster. I don't get the impression from my kids that it is one group of kids that are the "troublemakers". I said something to a neighbor and he joked that it's because all the kids have parents that are lawyers so the parents/admin are scared of getting sued.

Obviously my kids don't talk about it every night, I was being hyperbolic, but it is the subtext of a lot of stories -- we didn't get to this because kids were.....the teacher couldn't....

From the posts on the board it seems like this is just the culture here - a tweens will be tweens sort of thing. I find that hard to believe though, we are talking about an area a few hours away with similar demographics. I doubt the parenting styles could be that different, but I've been wrong before.

In the previous school teachers were freer with detentions (this is the 3rd time I asked you, see you after school) and deducting points (didn't choose to do that homework, let's not waste the class' time - here is your zero). You can have discipline without being iron-fisted, in an ideal world kids will be engaged and want to pay attention and learn, but even without that, the fair and kind teachers often have the better behaved classrooms because kids want to please them. I have asked my kids about the teachers and they said that the teachers are respectful to the kids.

But, my actual question is - can I do anything? Talk to anyone? Is this an issue being addressed in any of the schools? I looked at the code of conduct and this type student behavior appears to be against it, and it seems as if it is in the teachers' power to appropriately correct it.

This, quite simply, does not happen much anymore in MCPS. There is a good deal of pressure on teachers to not 'punish' kids. It reflects poorly on the teacher (unfairly so, IMO) if they're disciplining kids too much. The kids understand that and realize they can get away with all sorts of bad behavior.

I have family members who have been teachers in MCPS for decades and they complain about this often.

Anonymous wrote:OP

The school is in a W cluster. I don't get the impression from my kids that it is one group of kids that are the "troublemakers". I said something to a neighbor and he joked that it's because all the kids have parents that are lawyers so the parents/admin are scared of getting sued.

Obviously my kids don't talk about it every night, I was being hyperbolic, but it is the subtext of a lot of stories -- we didn't get to this because kids were.....the teacher couldn't....

From the posts on the board it seems like this is just the culture here - a tweens will be tweens sort of thing. I find that hard to believe though, we are talking about an area a few hours away with similar demographics. I doubt the parenting styles could be that different, but I've been wrong before.

In the previous school teachers were freer with detentions (this is the 3rd time I asked you, see you after school) and deducting points (didn't choose to do that homework, let's not waste the class' time - here is your zero). You can have discipline without being iron-fisted, in an ideal world kids will be engaged and want to pay attention and learn, but even without that, the fair and kind teachers often have the better behaved classrooms because kids want to please them. I have asked my kids about the teachers and they said that the teachers are respectful to the kids.

But, my actual question is - can I do anything? Talk to anyone? Is this an issue being addressed in any of the schools? I looked at the code of conduct and this type student behavior appears to be against it, and it seems as if it is in the teachers' power to appropriately correct it.

Bolded is basically it. Lots and lots of stuff getting swept under the rug by the wealthy parents. Gets worse in HS. No solutions, except maybe move? There are no schools without problem kids, but at least you won't have your kids exposed to the kind of environment where parents with money can get their kids out of trouble.

Anonymous wrote:
I have no idea if those parents hit their kids. But, per the teacher PP, those kids are more well behaved than those American kids. Let's face it. American kids know there are no real severe consequences for being disrespectful in school, and parents don't think it's a huge deal either. That's why there are so many kids like this. Some parents flip out if their kids don't get enough play time in team sports, but I bet some of those parents wouldn't punish their kids for being disrespectful to their teachers. Our kids' values are so screwed up because parents are teaching them this.

Those are some impressive generalizations there.

Also, you seem to think that immigrants and the children of immigrants aren't Americans. Why do you think that?