Anonymous
Post 12/09/2015 16:48     Subject: 92% in 4 to 5 in Algebra 1 - teacher attributes success to "old-fashioned" algebra
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I can only assume that everybody who yearns for the good old days of textbooks never used a textbook? There used to be a whole lot of bad textbooks.


Yes, there were some bad textbooks out there, but the parents could look at them and see if they were bad. While they sometimes had factual errors I recall they were usually written and reviewed by a committee of subject matter experts. I'll take them any day over a committee of educational experts whose mathematical expertise is unknown.

Further, I think as any textbook is better than none. I'll never forget when my daughter had her first math textbook (Math A). She asked me a question about her homework and when I asked if she'd read that section of her textbook she had no idea what I meant. She was astounded to discover there were explanations and sample problems there to help her. Then I showed her there was also a glossary and index.


The parents could? Which parents? The same parents who need textbooks because they are unable to look math stuff up on the Internet (per the PPs)?


Kid goes to parent says this doesn't make sense and parent can check the text. Yes, some parents may not know/be able to look up the math being taught. However, I think MCPS has enough educated and concerned parents that if the textbook were that bad it would be noticed. You can use the internet to find that a few years back many communities had parents protesting for new math textbooks, and they got them. Sadly, the textbooks they protested sounded a lot like our curriculum. It's a lot harder to argue with a curriculum when tests aren't sent home and the only way to see the curriculum is to go to the central office library or the school library and look at the curriculum there because you can't check it out. (This was under the old curriculum, now that the curriculum's online I don't think parents can access it at all.)

In the meantime, even if the book has some errors or a less than ideal approach, I still maintain that any textbook is better than none.
Anonymous
Post 12/09/2015 15:09     Subject: 92% in 4 to 5 in Algebra 1 - teacher attributes success to "old-fashioned" algebra
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I can only assume that everybody who yearns for the good old days of textbooks never used a textbook? There used to be a whole lot of bad textbooks.


Yes, there were some bad textbooks out there, but the parents could look at them and see if they were bad. While they sometimes had factual errors I recall they were usually written and reviewed by a committee of subject matter experts. I'll take them any day over a committee of educational experts whose mathematical expertise is unknown.

Further, I think as any textbook is better than none. I'll never forget when my daughter had her first math textbook (Math A). She asked me a question about her homework and when I asked if she'd read that section of her textbook she had no idea what I meant. She was astounded to discover there were explanations and sample problems there to help her. Then I showed her there was also a glossary and index.


The parents could? Which parents? The same parents who need textbooks because they are unable to look math stuff up on the Internet (per the PPs)?
Anonymous
Post 12/09/2015 14:52     Subject: Re:92% in 4 to 5 in Algebra 1 - teacher attributes success to "old-fashioned" algebra
No idea if everyone is getting the same packets across the county but some of what's been handed out in our school is just galling. There are errors in the content, I'll spare you. But there's also crap like a Burger King ad on page six of the very first Algebra packet. The idea is let's learn about subscripts by ordering off the BK menu and it refers to products and includes a logo and slogan. I don't know did a hamburger company buy an ad in my child's packet or did someone just think stealing logo's off the internet is fun clipart?
Anonymous
Post 12/09/2015 14:44     Subject: 92% in 4 to 5 in Algebra 1 - teacher attributes success to "old-fashioned" algebra
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Are there any studies, links or profiles in regards to Bates model that poster from 12:15 described?

I think the description is interesting and points to some issues that I have. Where I think some people are too quick to point to lower performing schools due to SES factors and there is nothing that schools or the district can do about it. But the description about Bates proves otherwise.

I was going to say something similar how textbooks not being used anymore is just changing times and something to adapt to. But for myself, am more comfortable with a text book in front of me instead of just staring at a screen. But I'm probably a relic of the past as well.


12:15 here - my experience at Bates is through a friend who is a teacher there and having several friends with kids there, so I don't have any academic literature or anything - just really positive anecdotes.
Here's a little more info on the school, though: http://www.edutopia.org/stw-arts-integration

Also, This American Life a few months ago did a series on integration in schools and it featured a Rhode Island school district with a very similar magnet model.



Thanks!
Anonymous
Post 12/09/2015 14:40     Subject: 92% in 4 to 5 in Algebra 1 - teacher attributes success to "old-fashioned" algebra
Sad that this same data for my child's middle school in PG county (85% scoring 4 in Algebra 1) isn't highlighted in the media.
Anonymous
Post 12/09/2015 14:32     Subject: 92% in 4 to 5 in Algebra 1 - teacher attributes success to "old-fashioned" algebra
Anonymous wrote:Are there any studies, links or profiles in regards to Bates model that poster from 12:15 described?

I think the description is interesting and points to some issues that I have. Where I think some people are too quick to point to lower performing schools due to SES factors and there is nothing that schools or the district can do about it. But the description about Bates proves otherwise.

I was going to say something similar how textbooks not being used anymore is just changing times and something to adapt to. But for myself, am more comfortable with a text book in front of me instead of just staring at a screen. But I'm probably a relic of the past as well.


12:15 here - my experience at Bates is through a friend who is a teacher there and having several friends with kids there, so I don't have any academic literature or anything - just really positive anecdotes.
Here's a little more info on the school, though: http://www.edutopia.org/stw-arts-integration

Also, This American Life a few months ago did a series on integration in schools and it featured a Rhode Island school district with a very similar magnet model.

Anonymous
Post 12/09/2015 14:24     Subject: 92% in 4 to 5 in Algebra 1 - teacher attributes success to "old-fashioned" algebra
Anonymous wrote:I can only assume that everybody who yearns for the good old days of textbooks never used a textbook? There used to be a whole lot of bad textbooks.


Yes, there were some bad textbooks out there, but the parents could look at them and see if they were bad. While they sometimes had factual errors I recall they were usually written and reviewed by a committee of subject matter experts. I'll take them any day over a committee of educational experts whose mathematical expertise is unknown.

Further, I think as any textbook is better than none. I'll never forget when my daughter had her first math textbook (Math A). She asked me a question about her homework and when I asked if she'd read that section of her textbook she had no idea what I meant. She was astounded to discover there were explanations and sample problems there to help her. Then I showed her there was also a glossary and index.
Anonymous
Post 12/09/2015 14:20     Subject: 92% in 4 to 5 in Algebra 1 - teacher attributes success to "old-fashioned" algebra
Anonymous wrote:I can only assume that everybody who yearns for the good old days of textbooks never used a textbook? There used to be a whole lot of bad textbooks.


WTF are you talking about? Kids should not have textbooks with sample problems, explanations and homework problems because there were bad textbooks? I can't say I ever remember a bad textbook, but I'm not going to deny your experience, just question how this relates to the topic at hand.
Anonymous
Post 12/09/2015 14:04     Subject: 92% in 4 to 5 in Algebra 1 - teacher attributes success to "old-fashioned" algebra
I can only assume that everybody who yearns for the good old days of textbooks never used a textbook? There used to be a whole lot of bad textbooks.
Anonymous
Post 12/09/2015 14:00     Subject: Re:92% in 4 to 5 in Algebra 1 - teacher attributes success to "old-fashioned" algebra
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Damn straight! Exactly what's going on. Math teachers have been hit or miss all my life, clearly we're not going to find enough good teachers, but at least there were books. Now, they've taken those away.


OR - to be a contrarian for a second:

I didn't know that all of a sudden the vast resources of the internet were "poof" gone. Youtube videos, serious, in-depth explanations - all available at the touch of a button - and not reliant upon out-dated textbooks that just end up being landfill...


First of all it helps to have a textbook that your teacher teaches out of rather than getting ransom methods off the Internet that may conflict and confuse the matter further.

Second of all, not every home has a computer and internet access. I'll grant you they're very common and moat households probably do. However the students most at risk that we've been discussing are the least likely to be able to supplement their education this way. The school should provide suitable materials for the kids to use at home. If we don't provide textbooks because we expect a student to rely on the internet, are we going to provide computers and internet access for them (don't forget lessons on computer usage and IT support).


It's really very difficult to look up a math concept on the internet that makes sense, and follows along with what your child has been taught.

Maybe you have tons of time when you get home, but with dinner, cleanup, baths and showers ,and prepping for the next day our evening time is pretty tight. I'd like my child to be able to open a book and look at a sample problem, rather then start off on youtube, which just leads to Katy Perry videos or surf for an hour going from page to page getting frustrated. Why should something that would take 2 minutes with a book need to involve 2 hours with internet searches? Does that make sense to you?

I can only imagine how difficult it is for an ESOL family to find resources. I still can't believe one of the richest school districts in the country does not have textbooks, especially since the immigrant population is climbing.
Anonymous
Post 12/09/2015 13:29     Subject: Re:92% in 4 to 5 in Algebra 1 - teacher attributes success to "old-fashioned" algebra
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Damn straight! Exactly what's going on. Math teachers have been hit or miss all my life, clearly we're not going to find enough good teachers, but at least there were books. Now, they've taken those away.


OR - to be a contrarian for a second:

I didn't know that all of a sudden the vast resources of the internet were "poof" gone. Youtube videos, serious, in-depth explanations - all available at the touch of a button - and not reliant upon out-dated textbooks that just end up being landfill...

No, google is not a substitute for a text where definitions have been stated clearly, text has been proofread, teaching order and exercises have been planned. My daughter took geometry last year without a book (and believe me 500 pages of xeroxing are now landfill). Early on she needed to label a diagram. I said "how does your teacher want you to notate a line segment?" she didn't know. We paged through her worksheets, no clue. Is it really appropriate to watch a video for information like this? It's a simple convention that would be clear by opening any traditional geometry book to a random page. Same thing when it came time to label the quadrants of the coordinate plane. "When I was in school it was uppercase roman numerals, I, II, III, IV starting in the positive x-y proceeding counter clockwise. Is this what you've been doing?" "Don't know." These are trivial examples, just a couple conventions to get straight before proceeding it only gets worse from there.
Anonymous
Post 12/09/2015 13:17     Subject: Re:92% in 4 to 5 in Algebra 1 - teacher attributes success to "old-fashioned" algebra
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
To read about how Zuckerberg poured millions of dollars into fancy schools, uber teachers and technology in Newark...and it was a miserable failure. Why? Because it takes much more to close the achievement gap for low-income minorities. Again, duh!

The traditional math works well for most students. But kids being raised in abject poverty who aren't receiving the same attention and resources as your yuppie snowflake from infancy through school are going to lag behind. 2.0 won't fix that...unless 2.0 includes housing, food, stable parents, safe neighborhoods, and parents who value education and have the economic wherewithal and time to dedicate to teaching their children starting at toddlerhood. And universal pre-k...while nice...doesn't close the achievement gap either...see above for explanation related to complex human needs that must be met outside the classroom.

Signed,

Poverty Lawyer who understands the struggles of low-income families


^^^This post is spot on. I grew up slightly above the poverty line, with a foreign mother and an alcoholic father who literally drank himself to death. There was no parent/nanny at my house when I returned from school, no one went to my parent-teacher conferences or even asked to see my report cards. My requests for music lessons, Girl Scouts, dance lessons were not fulfilled due to money. I had no mentor teacher at school. I thought my teachers favored the kids from the richer families because their parents were actually involved in the school.

What I did have is a BOOK, so that I could figure things out on my own from the sample problems and a list of homework problems. I did not want to embarrass myself by not having homework to go over in class in the next day, that was my motivator.

If I had this half-assed worksheet based education, without reference materials to bring home I would have failed. There are too many different ways taught and too much group work in this curriculum. I went to the open house in our sweet W feeder elementary school and thought of the misbehavior we would have had in my economically disadvantaged school if we were allowed to work in groups like this on one problem for half the class period.

I have an advanced math degree. In my opinion, a bunch of liberal arts majors that don't understand math have developed the MCPS math curriculum. It's like they didn't "get" math so they are adding more verbiage, methods and group work because they think that would have helped them. A big part of developing math understanding is just working problems and having good reference material at home.

To close the achievement gap, offer small group tutoring in school to the kids who are struggling and give them a good reference textbook to take home and some meaningful homework. I've seen many kids who speak much better english than their parents, and whose parents didn't even graduate high school in their native countries.


Amen!!!!


NP here - this PP is so right.

I'm a child of immigrant parents who couldn't help me with my schoolwork either. I agree with all of what you said.
Anonymous
Post 12/09/2015 13:13     Subject: Re:92% in 4 to 5 in Algebra 1 - teacher attributes success to "old-fashioned" algebra
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Damn straight! Exactly what's going on. Math teachers have been hit or miss all my life, clearly we're not going to find enough good teachers, but at least there were books. Now, they've taken those away.


OR - to be a contrarian for a second:

I didn't know that all of a sudden the vast resources of the internet were "poof" gone. Youtube videos, serious, in-depth explanations - all available at the touch of a button - and not reliant upon out-dated textbooks that just end up being landfill...


First of all it helps to have a textbook that your teacher teaches out of rather than getting ransom methods off the Internet that may conflict and confuse the matter further.

Second of all, not every home has a computer and internet access. I'll grant you they're very common and moat households probably do. However the students most at risk that we've been discussing are the least likely to be able to supplement their education this way. The school should provide suitable materials for the kids to use at home. If we don't provide textbooks because we expect a student to rely on the internet, are we going to provide computers and internet access for them (don't forget lessons on computer usage and IT support).
Anonymous
Post 12/09/2015 13:12     Subject: 92% in 4 to 5 in Algebra 1 - teacher attributes success to "old-fashioned" algebra
Anonymous wrote:Are there any studies, links or profiles in regards to Bates model that poster from 12:15 described?

I think the description is interesting and points to some issues that I have. Where I think some people are too quick to point to lower performing schools due to SES factors and there is nothing that schools or the district can do about it. But the description about Bates proves otherwise.

I was going to say something similar how textbooks not being used anymore is just changing times and something to adapt to. But for myself, am more comfortable with a text book in front of me instead of just staring at a screen. But I'm probably a relic of the past as well.

I work in IT. A long time ago, all technical manuals were hardcopies. Today, all of our manuals are online. Sometimes, I miss hardcopies. Yep, I am a relic, too (in this industry for 20 yrs).
Anonymous
Post 12/09/2015 13:05     Subject: 92% in 4 to 5 in Algebra 1 - teacher attributes success to "old-fashioned" algebra
Are there any studies, links or profiles in regards to Bates model that poster from 12:15 described?

I think the description is interesting and points to some issues that I have. Where I think some people are too quick to point to lower performing schools due to SES factors and there is nothing that schools or the district can do about it. But the description about Bates proves otherwise.

I was going to say something similar how textbooks not being used anymore is just changing times and something to adapt to. But for myself, am more comfortable with a text book in front of me instead of just staring at a screen. But I'm probably a relic of the past as well.