Anonymous wrote:Because the country is changing into a more South American model where there is no middle class. People may not be able to articulate it this way, but they sense that the affluent ship is pulling out of the harbor and are eager for their kids to be on board.

Agreed.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would have thought Mr. Stringpuller was crazy, but then take a look at the students who won Rhodes Scholarships this year. Every one appears to have been exquisitely 'stage managed' from a very young age by a team of people:

http://www.rhodesscholar.org/news-and-announcements/american-rhodes-scholarships-winners-2016/

I looked at the list of Rhodes Schoolers. They are highly accomplished, but I'm not sure what you mean by they appear to have been "exquisitely managed."

Not the poster of the Rhodes Scholars thing, but I agree with him or her, let's take a look.

XXX, is a Harvard senior concentrating in Neurobiology and Physics.
Her passion is computational and theoretical neuroscience. She hopes to uncover the
mathematics that govern the networks of neurons that make up the brain, and particularly
those that create the thought and feelings that differentiate human beings. She has done
research in neuroscience in the U.S., Japan, and France. XXX is also the Arts Chair of the
Harvard Crimson, and was the President of the Radcliffe Union of Students. She has qualified
several times for U.S. National and Junior Olympic fencing championships. Grace plans to do
a D.Phil. in Neuroscience at Oxford. --> Who do you think gave this girl her start in US, National and Junior Olympic fencing championships? It takes parental support to get a kids to even Olympic trials.

XXX is a senior at the University of Virginia, where he will receive a
B.A. in Politics. His interest in politics led him to found Seriatim, the University’s first journal
devoted to American politics and political theory.XXXleveraged Seriatim as a platform to
engage the University in a discussion on how to best protect survivors of sexual assaults. In the
realm of political theory, he has investigated a meta-constitutional framework for governing
Taiwan and China. He is a Truman Scholar, serves on the UVA Honor Committee, and is
Opinion Editor of The Cavalier Daily. Russell has conducted service work in Haiti, and plays
on the University’s squash team. He intends to do the M.Phil. in Political Theory at Oxford. --> Who paid for this kid to go to Haiti instead of having to stay at home and work in lawn care to supplement his pocket money?

XXX, Philadelphia, is a Harvard College senior who majors in Near Eastern
Languages and Civilizations (Islamic Studies). Her primary academic interest is the common
intellectual heritage of medieval Islamic and Christian theologians. With advanced proficiency
in eight modern and classical languages,[u] she is especially interested in how medieval
philosophy, with roots in ancient Greece, can offer insights into modern attitudes towards
international and intercultural understanding. She is a leader in community and campus
work, especially addressing the problem of sexual assault. XXX is also captain of her
intramural rowing team. She will do the M.Phil. in Scholastic Theology at Oxford. --> Want to bet she was in a family that already spoke multiple languages?

These kids are truly accomplished. Ranging from interesting activities to a smattering of personal quirky anecdotes such as "working the docks with lobster traps." That's a cultivated resume.

Anonymous wrote:I would have thought Mr. Stringpuller was crazy, but then take a look at the students who won Rhodes Scholarships this year. Every one appears to have been exquisitely 'stage managed' from a very young age by a team of people:

http://www.rhodesscholar.org/news-and-announcements/american-rhodes-scholarships-winners-2016/

I looked at the list of Rhodes Schoolers. They are highly accomplished, but I'm not sure what you mean by they appear to have been "exquisitely managed."

I am fully aware that my anxiety stems from the disappearing middle class. I don't care if my kids win a Nobel prize but I do want them to have a decent quality of life which, in my mind, includes the ability to take some time off (professional), afford enjoying that time off, a roof over their head and health insurance. It's a tougher world now and for a number of reasons it's harder to compete and harder to recover from mistakes. I'm trying to relax, but it's not easy. There's no trust fund or family business for them to inherit.

Anonymous wrote:Because the country is changing into a more South American model where there is no middle class. People may not be able to articulate it this way, but they sense that the affluent ship is pulling out of the harbor and are eager for their kids to be on board.

+1 You are right. Income inequality is getting worse in the US, with the top .5 % owning something like 40percent of the assets. Parents worry ( incorrectly I believe) that if their kid does not make it to the top .5 % then they will not have freedom, "control overt their lives" and happiness. If we had a stronger middle class parent might relax. 2 of my 3 adult children are making it on on middle class salaries, but they have smaller homes, drive older cars, etc. than my husband and I did at their age. Still they are happy and fulfilled.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No, the hospital volunteer internships are not what they were when we were young. My daughter did one where there was very little patient contact, very few opportunities to do anything other than file and clean up the play room. Apparently it has to do with liability laws and all of those precautions about bodily fluids, etc. They are no longer allowed to make beds and run things to the lab and to do all the kinds of things that we probably did when we were in high school. Nowadays an admissions committee sees them as pretty meaningless.

On the other hand, my neighbor's kid worked his way up from lifeguard to head of aquatics at some chi-chi private camp. Ended up with a lot of responsibility including making hiring decisions for other lifeguards, disciplining other lifeguards, setting up and organizing training, filling out incident reports. Probably had a lot more responsibility that could then be translated on a job application to something meaningful.

The cheezy guy in the cheap suit swanning around the 'policy conference'? He's probably the last person I would hire.

Sure. I learnt how to act professionally around senior government officials and learnt how to organize conferences, liaised with hotels, and do research on a very interesting policy topic. Glad I was just the cheesy guy in a cheap suit. I learnt a ton, but it makes you feel better that teens who get plum opportunities like that must be just lazing off their parents who don't give a damn about their work.

While I was in India I also met a pre med prior to going to his Ivy League in India for three months providing basic medical services to the village. He was not slacking off, sure his parents money got him there but I saw him taking full advantage and learning.

And how I got the policy job as a teen? I sent emails to a bunch of think tanks and networked myself. I think even teaching your child to ask for opportunities gives them a leg up.

Anonymous wrote:No, the hospital volunteer internships are not what they were when we were young. My daughter did one where there was very little patient contact, very few opportunities to do anything other than file and clean up the play room. Apparently it has to do with liability laws and all of those precautions about bodily fluids, etc. They are no longer allowed to make beds and run things to the lab and to do all the kinds of things that we probably did when we were in high school. Nowadays an admissions committee sees them as pretty meaningless.

On the other hand, my neighbor's kid worked his way up from lifeguard to head of aquatics at some chi-chi private camp. Ended up with a lot of responsibility including making hiring decisions for other lifeguards, disciplining other lifeguards, setting up and organizing training, filling out incident reports. Probably had a lot more responsibility that could then be translated on a job application to something meaningful.

The cheezy guy in the cheap suit swanning around the 'policy conference'? He's probably the last person I would hire.

And unless you are in admissions I think even trying to do something in a hospital is pretty meaningful. These are teenagers, no one is expecting them to cure cancer.

Anonymous wrote:No, the hospital volunteer internships are not what they were when we were young. My daughter did one where there was very little patient contact, very few opportunities to do anything other than file and clean up the play room. Apparently it has to do with liability laws and all of those precautions about bodily fluids, etc. They are no longer allowed to make beds and run things to the lab and to do all the kinds of things that we probably did when we were in high school. Nowadays an admissions committee sees them as pretty meaningless.

On the other hand, my neighbor's kid worked his way up from lifeguard to head of aquatics at some chi-chi private camp. Ended up with a lot of responsibility including making hiring decisions for other lifeguards, disciplining other lifeguards, setting up and organizing training, filling out incident reports. Probably had a lot more responsibility that could then be translated on a job application to something meaningful.

The cheezy guy in the cheap suit swanning around the 'policy conference'? He's probably the last person I would hire.

Sure. I learnt how to act professionally around senior government officials and learnt how to organize conferences, liaised with hotels, and do research on a very interesting policy topic. Glad I was just the cheesy guy in a cheap suit. I learnt a ton, but it makes you feel better that teens who get plum opportunities like that must be just lazing off their parents who don't give a damn about their work.

While I was in India I also met a pre med prior to going to his Ivy League in India for three months providing basic medical services to the village. He was not slacking off, sure his parents money got him there but I saw him taking full advantage and learning.

No, the hospital volunteer internships are not what they were when we were young. My daughter did one where there was very little patient contact, very few opportunities to do anything other than file and clean up the play room. Apparently it has to do with liability laws and all of those precautions about bodily fluids, etc. They are no longer allowed to make beds and run things to the lab and to do all the kinds of things that we probably did when we were in high school. Nowadays an admissions committee sees them as pretty meaningless.

On the other hand, my neighbor's kid worked his way up from lifeguard to head of aquatics at some chi-chi private camp. Ended up with a lot of responsibility including making hiring decisions for other lifeguards, disciplining other lifeguards, setting up and organizing training, filling out incident reports. Probably had a lot more responsibility that could then be translated on a job application to something meaningful.

The cheezy guy in the cheap suit swanning around the 'policy conference'? He's probably the last person I would hire.

And btw those opportunities are available even if daddy or mommy has no connections. E.g volunteer experience at a hospital
Over the summer is probably more beneficial to a resume for a teen aspiring to medical school than being a life guard. It's just being strategic.

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Anonymous wrote:Parents can push all they want for Ivy. Its a scam. Both DH and I are entrepreneurs and that is a mindset that wins every time. It can even win without a degree.

My son is the ONLY child mowing lawns. He is 15 and next spring his first car will be a pickup to trailer his equipment. He has 1 kid he pays on his busiest days to help. Next spring he will drive his own truck. He has had to knock on doors, convince people to spend their money with a neighborhood kid, and deliver a consistent product. He has 14 regular customers for mowing at 40/wk each and then has been busy with leaves and mulching this fall. We're teaching him that the way to freedom and success in this country is to rely on yourself and not be an office drone.

I agree. We demand our kids work just like we did at a young age. It teaches them a work ethic that will carry them a long way. The kids who have a life spoon fed to them do not do well in the real world.

Interesting discussion. I am Asian and we don't expect teenagers to have part time jobs. Asian parents want their kids to focus on their grades and academics which we consider their "job".

I am white but with the Asian parents here. Maybe if my kids would overindulge and get cocky and know it all about life I would push a manual labor experience but that's about it.

Did you read the post about how all things being equal, an employer would rather hire someone who has *some* kind of work experience (be it manual, fast food services, or white collar) than over someone who has no work experience? You might be doing your child a disservice. Also, colleges see a lot of applicants with stellar education credentials. What will set your child apart from the rest of the pack? If I saw a kid that had not the best test scores/grades, but had a side business mowing lawns, I'd pick him over a student with excellent grades and nothing else. Why? Because the other student shows leadership and entrepreneural skills in the real world, and chances are, this is the kind of person that will start a company, create jobs, and become a leader in the real world.

Depends on what kind of work experience. To get my kid an elite job I'll be pulling connections for him to intern at a friends office in some capacity or another during his summer. Not mowing lawns. If he starts his own business it will be something to do in the tech start up realm. Other than that his job is school. You have to play it smart. Frankly Goldman Sachs ain't looking for waiteressing experience.

Right. Goldman Sachs is looking for connections. So by pulling connections, you're showing GS that your son is well-connected. That's a lot different than skilled. For those of us who aren't connected, it's a whole different ballgame.

Except it's not. This kid isn't learning to work for what he gets. He's learning that Mommy and Daddy and the folks at the club will get him in. He didn't earn anything. It was handed to him. Kids who are handed stuff don't appreciate what they have and they feel like they don't deserve it. Because they don't... They are often remarkably fragile people, like the kids in the Atlantic article.

What bs. We are talking about teenagers here. So somehow if parents push their kids to do lawn care is better than if I got my kid an internship? Of course it will be up to the kids personality whether he or she learns or not. If the child learns in his or her first internship as a teenager he or she will have a huge legs up once they are in college and are actually applying for internships that leads to a job. You have no idea how many companies I recruited for in college valued my experience working as a teenager...or a college freshman. I had to source those opportunities myself but if I can get a legs up for an ambitious kid I will. It's not a given that kids that get more Internships as a teen are spoilt, you have to teach them how to value each learning experience.

So as I said it depends on what kind of work. While some kids were doing lawn care I was working at a think tank organizing conferences for senior world government officials. That experience was heavily influential for me getting into an ivy. I will tell my child to look for similar smart opportunities.

I would have thought Mr. Stringpuller was crazy, but then take a look at the students who won Rhodes Scholarships this year. Every one appears to have been exquisitely 'stage managed' from a very young age by a team of people:

http://www.rhodesscholar.org/news-and-announcements/american-rhodes-scholarships-winners-2016/

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Parents can push all they want for Ivy. Its a scam. Both DH and I are entrepreneurs and that is a mindset that wins every time. It can even win without a degree.

My son is the ONLY child mowing lawns. He is 15 and next spring his first car will be a pickup to trailer his equipment. He has 1 kid he pays on his busiest days to help. Next spring he will drive his own truck. He has had to knock on doors, convince people to spend their money with a neighborhood kid, and deliver a consistent product. He has 14 regular customers for mowing at 40/wk each and then has been busy with leaves and mulching this fall. We're teaching him that the way to freedom and success in this country is to rely on yourself and not be an office drone.

I agree. We demand our kids work just like we did at a young age. It teaches them a work ethic that will carry them a long way. The kids who have a life spoon fed to them do not do well in the real world.

Interesting discussion. I am Asian and we don't expect teenagers to have part time jobs. Asian parents want their kids to focus on their grades and academics which we consider their "job".

I am white but with the Asian parents here. Maybe if my kids would overindulge and get cocky and know it all about life I would push a manual labor experience but that's about it.

Did you read the post about how all things being equal, an employer would rather hire someone who has *some* kind of work experience (be it manual, fast food services, or white collar) than over someone who has no work experience? You might be doing your child a disservice. Also, colleges see a lot of applicants with stellar education credentials. What will set your child apart from the rest of the pack? If I saw a kid that had not the best test scores/grades, but had a side business mowing lawns, I'd pick him over a student with excellent grades and nothing else. Why? Because the other student shows leadership and entrepreneural skills in the real world, and chances are, this is the kind of person that will start a company, create jobs, and become a leader in the real world.

Depends on what kind of work experience. To get my kid an elite job I'll be pulling connections for him to intern at a friends office in some capacity or another during his summer. Not mowing lawns. If he starts his own business it will be something to do in the tech start up realm. Other than that his job is school. You have to play it smart. Frankly Goldman Sachs ain't looking for waiteressing experience.

Right. Goldman Sachs is looking for connections. So by pulling connections, you're showing GS that your son is well-connected. That's a lot different than skilled. For those of us who aren't connected, it's a whole different ballgame.

Except it's not. This kid isn't learning to work for what he gets. He's learning that Mommy and Daddy and the folks at the club will get him in. He didn't earn anything. It was handed to him. Kids who are handed stuff don't appreciate what they have and they feel like they don't deserve it. Because they don't... They are often remarkably fragile people, like the kids in the Atlantic article.

Anonymous wrote:My husband is a very successful entrepreneur who went to a middling college with middling grades. He does much better that most of the stress case big law folks (with a much more pleasant lifestyle).

I went to Yale and am not as successful as him. I think it's really important to recognize that there are a myriad of paths . . .

Curious about how your parents situation differ? We're his parents working class or entrepreneurs or were your immigrants or academics?

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Anonymous wrote:Parents can push all they want for Ivy. Its a scam. Both DH and I are entrepreneurs and that is a mindset that wins every time. It can even win without a degree.

My son is the ONLY child mowing lawns. He is 15 and next spring his first car will be a pickup to trailer his equipment. He has 1 kid he pays on his busiest days to help. Next spring he will drive his own truck. He has had to knock on doors, convince people to spend their money with a neighborhood kid, and deliver a consistent product. He has 14 regular customers for mowing at 40/wk each and then has been busy with leaves and mulching this fall. We're teaching him that the way to freedom and success in this country is to rely on yourself and not be an office drone.

I agree. We demand our kids work just like we did at a young age. It teaches them a work ethic that will carry them a long way. The kids who have a life spoon fed to them do not do well in the real world.

Interesting discussion. I am Asian and we don't expect teenagers to have part time jobs. Asian parents want their kids to focus on their grades and academics which we consider their "job".

I am white but with the Asian parents here. Maybe if my kids would overindulge and get cocky and know it all about life I would push a manual labor experience but that's about it.

Did you read the post about how all things being equal, an employer would rather hire someone who has *some* kind of work experience (be it manual, fast food services, or white collar) than over someone who has no work experience? You might be doing your child a disservice. Also, colleges see a lot of applicants with stellar education credentials. What will set your child apart from the rest of the pack? If I saw a kid that had not the best test scores/grades, but had a side business mowing lawns, I'd pick him over a student with excellent grades and nothing else. Why? Because the other student shows leadership and entrepreneural skills in the real world, and chances are, this is the kind of person that will start a company, create jobs, and become a leader in the real world.

Depends on what kind of work experience. To get my kid an elite job I'll be pulling connections for him to intern at a friends office in some capacity or another during his summer. Not mowing lawns. If he starts his own business it will be something to do in the tech start up realm. Other than that his job is school. You have to play it smart. Frankly Goldman Sachs ain't looking for waiteressing experience.

Right. Goldman Sachs is looking for connections. So by pulling connections, you're showing GS that your son is well-connected. That's a lot different than skilled. For those of us who aren't connected, it's a whole different ballgame.

+1. And this plays right into OP 's post. The parents never stop pulling strings and calling in connections. Isn't it healthier at some point for the kids to learn to make their own way? As an employer, I would hire the kid who started own his mowing business over the kid who was handed an internship on a silver platter in a heartbeat.

But these helicopter parents are unwilling to allow their child succeed or fail on their own merits. They are emailing their daughter's college professor and demanding to know why their snowflake was GIVEN a certain grade.

http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2015/07/helicopter_parenting_is_increasingly_correlated_with_college_age_depression.html