Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The obsession with test scores and grades as a measure of meritocracy is laughable. What kind of merit do they measure? They don't aren't even very good predictors of college grades. (The College Board says all 3 SAT scores plus high school GPA have a correlation coefficient of just 0.48) There are a lot of factors that go into predicting whether a child will thrive at any given institution. There is no reason to privilege SAT and GPA over every other potential measure.

The silliest part of this never ending debate is to compare the US higher education system to India, China, S. Korea, and Japan. In all those countries, there is an very strong correlation between income and admission to the top schools, even though admission is strictly test-based. Wealthy students are more likely to get in to BeiDa and IIT and Tokyo than into HYP. And in every one of those countries, the education ministries are deeply concerned that their schools fail to produce innovative thinkers and want to overhaul their systems to reduce academic burdens and reliance on test scores. Since the vast majority of students are destined to fail in those systems (as defined as admission to a top school), the pressure is enormous and everything besides test taking is tossed aside.

Why in the world should the US imitate higher education system that other countries are trying to make more like ours?

This makes some sense to me. I think some folks seem to think the US system is based solely on test scores and that would be "merit." IMO, there is a lot more to merit than perfect test scores. Any reasonably intelligent kid could get them with the right amount of prep. The selective schools are looking for more than that. They want to see passion, leadership, etc. (and money probably helps).

"For the millionth time, this response will address the same issue so pay attention:

Asian Americans do not argue for test scores or gpas to trump over other factors. In fact, colleges can use all the objective and subjective criteria they want to use. That is fine and dandy.

The problem is, pay attention now, the various criteria are APPLIED DIFFERENTLY based on race. Again Asians DO NOT complain about the factors used in college admissions at all. Asians only want them APPLIED CONSISTENTLY without illegal racial discrimination where one race has to show higher test scores, higher gpas, more club activities, more awards, more officer positions, more volunteer hours etc. That is the problem, not that colleges use test scores or gpas. I am sure this will have to be repeated over and over since someone will come back and say exactly the same thing: Why should we only look at SAT scores?, SAT doesn't show creativity, SAT doesn't predict college success, we don't want rote memorization, higher income will boost SAT scores etc. "

This is exactly right. The problem is the criteria are being applied different. It is unabashed racism. When colleges are ADDING 150 to 175 points (per the Princeton review) to Black and Hispanic scores because they are Black and Hispanic, colleges are being racist. End of.

There is also the HUGE issue of Caucasian, Indian and Asian students having to work to super-human ideals in order to impress a bunch of admissions counselors who don't work nearly has hard as those they are judging. It's wholly disgusting.

NP here. I am an Asian. I know there is reverse racism in college admission, however would like to know if there is any irrefutable evidence for the above statement. If there is why cannot concerned parents band together to bring class action suit? Any Asian lawyers here?

I am tired of living like "second class" citizen in this country working extra hard for every opportunity, that other races can avail much easier because they were treated poorly in the past by certain race.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The obsession with test scores and grades as a measure of meritocracy is laughable. What kind of merit do they measure? They don't aren't even very good predictors of college grades. (The College Board says all 3 SAT scores plus high school GPA have a correlation coefficient of just 0.48) There are a lot of factors that go into predicting whether a child will thrive at any given institution. There is no reason to privilege SAT and GPA over every other potential measure.

The silliest part of this never ending debate is to compare the US higher education system to India, China, S. Korea, and Japan. In all those countries, there is an very strong correlation between income and admission to the top schools, even though admission is strictly test-based. Wealthy students are more likely to get in to BeiDa and IIT and Tokyo than into HYP. And in every one of those countries, the education ministries are deeply concerned that their schools fail to produce innovative thinkers and want to overhaul their systems to reduce academic burdens and reliance on test scores. Since the vast majority of students are destined to fail in those systems (as defined as admission to a top school), the pressure is enormous and everything besides test taking is tossed aside.

Why in the world should the US imitate higher education system that other countries are trying to make more like ours?

This makes some sense to me. I think some folks seem to think the US system is based solely on test scores and that would be "merit." IMO, there is a lot more to merit than perfect test scores. Any reasonably intelligent kid could get them with the right amount of prep. The selective schools are looking for more than that. They want to see passion, leadership, etc. (and money probably helps).

"For the millionth time, this response will address the same issue so pay attention:

Asian Americans do not argue for test scores or gpas to trump over other factors. In fact, colleges can use all the objective and subjective criteria they want to use. That is fine and dandy.

The problem is, pay attention now, the various criteria are APPLIED DIFFERENTLY based on race. Again Asians DO NOT complain about the factors used in college admissions at all. Asians only want them APPLIED CONSISTENTLY without illegal racial discrimination where one race has to show higher test scores, higher gpas, more club activities, more awards, more officer positions, more volunteer hours etc. That is the problem, not that colleges use test scores or gpas. I am sure this will have to be repeated over and over since someone will come back and say exactly the same thing: Why should we only look at SAT scores?, SAT doesn't show creativity, SAT doesn't predict college success, we don't want rote memorization, higher income will boost SAT scores etc. "

This is exactly right. The problem is the criteria are being applied different. It is unabashed racism. When colleges are ADDING 150 to 175 points (per the Princeton review) to Black and Hispanic scores because they are Black and Hispanic, colleges are being racist. End of.

There is also the HUGE issue of Caucasian, Indian and Asian students having to work to super-human ideals in order to impress a bunch of admissions counselors who don't work nearly has hard as those they are judging. It's wholly disgusting.

NP here. I am an Asian. I know there is reverse racism in college admission, however would like to know if there is any irrefutable evidence for the above statement. If there is why cannot concerned parents band together to bring class action suit? Any Asian lawyers here?

I am tired of living like "second class" citizen in this country working extra hard for every opportunity, that other races can avail much easier because they were treated poorly in the past by certain race.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The obsession with test scores and grades as a measure of meritocracy is laughable. What kind of merit do they measure? They don't aren't even very good predictors of college grades. (The College Board says all 3 SAT scores plus high school GPA have a correlation coefficient of just 0.48) There are a lot of factors that go into predicting whether a child will thrive at any given institution. There is no reason to privilege SAT and GPA over every other potential measure.

The silliest part of this never ending debate is to compare the US higher education system to India, China, S. Korea, and Japan. In all those countries, there is an very strong correlation between income and admission to the top schools, even though admission is strictly test-based. Wealthy students are more likely to get in to BeiDa and IIT and Tokyo than into HYP. And in every one of those countries, the education ministries are deeply concerned that their schools fail to produce innovative thinkers and want to overhaul their systems to reduce academic burdens and reliance on test scores. Since the vast majority of students are destined to fail in those systems (as defined as admission to a top school), the pressure is enormous and everything besides test taking is tossed aside.

Why in the world should the US imitate higher education system that other countries are trying to make more like ours?

This makes some sense to me. I think some folks seem to think the US system is based solely on test scores and that would be "merit." IMO, there is a lot more to merit than perfect test scores. Any reasonably intelligent kid could get them with the right amount of prep. The selective schools are looking for more than that. They want to see passion, leadership, etc. (and money probably helps).

"For the millionth time, this response will address the same issue so pay attention:

Asian Americans do not argue for test scores or gpas to trump over other factors. In fact, colleges can use all the objective and subjective criteria they want to use. That is fine and dandy.

The problem is, pay attention now, the various criteria are APPLIED DIFFERENTLY based on race. Again Asians DO NOT complain about the factors used in college admissions at all. Asians only want them APPLIED CONSISTENTLY without illegal racial discrimination where one race has to show higher test scores, higher gpas, more club activities, more awards, more officer positions, more volunteer hours etc. That is the problem, not that colleges use test scores or gpas. I am sure this will have to be repeated over and over since someone will come back and say exactly the same thing: Why should we only look at SAT scores?, SAT doesn't show creativity, SAT doesn't predict college success, we don't want rote memorization, higher income will boost SAT scores etc. "

This is exactly right. The problem is the criteria are being applied different. It is unabashed racism. When colleges are ADDING 150 to 175 points (per the Princeton review) to Black and Hispanic scores because they are Black and Hispanic, colleges are being racist. End of.

There is also the HUGE issue of Caucasian, Indian and Asian students having to work to super-human ideals in order to impress a bunch of admissions counselors who don't work nearly has hard as those they are judging. It's wholly disgusting.

NP here. I am an Asian. I know there is reverse racism in college admission, however would like to know if there is any irrefutable evidence for the above statement. If there is why cannot concerned parents band together to bring class action suit? Any Asian lawyers here?

I am tired of living like "second class" citizen in this country working extra hard for every opportunity, that other races can avail much easier because they were treated poorly in the past by certain race.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The obsession with test scores and grades as a measure of meritocracy is laughable. What kind of merit do they measure? They don't aren't even very good predictors of college grades. (The College Board says all 3 SAT scores plus high school GPA have a correlation coefficient of just 0.48) There are a lot of factors that go into predicting whether a child will thrive at any given institution. There is no reason to privilege SAT and GPA over every other potential measure.

The silliest part of this never ending debate is to compare the US higher education system to India, China, S. Korea, and Japan. In all those countries, there is an very strong correlation between income and admission to the top schools, even though admission is strictly test-based. Wealthy students are more likely to get in to BeiDa and IIT and Tokyo than into HYP. And in every one of those countries, the education ministries are deeply concerned that their schools fail to produce innovative thinkers and want to overhaul their systems to reduce academic burdens and reliance on test scores. Since the vast majority of students are destined to fail in those systems (as defined as admission to a top school), the pressure is enormous and everything besides test taking is tossed aside.

Why in the world should the US imitate higher education system that other countries are trying to make more like ours?

This makes some sense to me. I think some folks seem to think the US system is based solely on test scores and that would be "merit." IMO, there is a lot more to merit than perfect test scores. Any reasonably intelligent kid could get them with the right amount of prep. The selective schools are looking for more than that. They want to see passion, leadership, etc. (and money probably helps).

"For the millionth time, this response will address the same issue so pay attention:

Asian Americans do not argue for test scores or gpas to trump over other factors. In fact, colleges can use all the objective and subjective criteria they want to use. That is fine and dandy.

The problem is, pay attention now, the various criteria are APPLIED DIFFERENTLY based on race. Again Asians DO NOT complain about the factors used in college admissions at all. Asians only want them APPLIED CONSISTENTLY without illegal racial discrimination where one race has to show higher test scores, higher gpas, more club activities, more awards, more officer positions, more volunteer hours etc. That is the problem, not that colleges use test scores or gpas. I am sure this will have to be repeated over and over since someone will come back and say exactly the same thing: Why should we only look at SAT scores?, SAT doesn't show creativity, SAT doesn't predict college success, we don't want rote memorization, higher income will boost SAT scores etc. "

This is exactly right. The problem is the criteria are being applied different. It is unabashed racism. When colleges are ADDING 150 to 175 points (per the Princeton review) to Black and Hispanic scores because they are Black and Hispanic, colleges are being racist. End of.

There is also the HUGE issue of Caucasian, Indian and Asian students having to work to super-human ideals in order to impress a bunch of admissions counselors who don't work nearly has hard as those they are judging. It's wholly disgusting.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The obsession with test scores and grades as a measure of meritocracy is laughable. What kind of merit do they measure? They don't aren't even very good predictors of college grades. (The College Board says all 3 SAT scores plus high school GPA have a correlation coefficient of just 0.48) There are a lot of factors that go into predicting whether a child will thrive at any given institution. There is no reason to privilege SAT and GPA over every other potential measure.

The silliest part of this never ending debate is to compare the US higher education system to India, China, S. Korea, and Japan. In all those countries, there is an very strong correlation between income and admission to the top schools, even though admission is strictly test-based. Wealthy students are more likely to get in to BeiDa and IIT and Tokyo than into HYP. And in every one of those countries, the education ministries are deeply concerned that their schools fail to produce innovative thinkers and want to overhaul their systems to reduce academic burdens and reliance on test scores. Since the vast majority of students are destined to fail in those systems (as defined as admission to a top school), the pressure is enormous and everything besides test taking is tossed aside.

Why in the world should the US imitate higher education system that other countries are trying to make more like ours?

This makes some sense to me. I think some folks seem to think the US system is based solely on test scores and that would be "merit." IMO, there is a lot more to merit than perfect test scores. Any reasonably intelligent kid could get them with the right amount of prep. The selective schools are looking for more than that. They want to see passion, leadership, etc. (and money probably helps).

"For the millionth time, this response will address the same issue so pay attention:

Asian Americans do not argue for test scores or gpas to trump over other factors. In fact, colleges can use all the objective and subjective criteria they want to use. That is fine and dandy.

The problem is, pay attention now, the various criteria are APPLIED DIFFERENTLY based on race. Again Asians DO NOT complain about the factors used in college admissions at all. Asians only want them APPLIED CONSISTENTLY without illegal racial discrimination where one race has to show higher test scores, higher gpas, more club activities, more awards, more officer positions, more volunteer hours etc. That is the problem, not that colleges use test scores or gpas. I am sure this will have to be repeated over and over since someone will come back and say exactly the same thing: Why should we only look at SAT scores?, SAT doesn't show creativity, SAT doesn't predict college success, we don't want rote memorization, higher income will boost SAT scores etc. "

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The obsession with test scores and grades as a measure of meritocracy is laughable. What kind of merit do they measure? They don't aren't even very good predictors of college grades. (The College Board says all 3 SAT scores plus high school GPA have a correlation coefficient of just 0.48) There are a lot of factors that go into predicting whether a child will thrive at any given institution. There is no reason to privilege SAT and GPA over every other potential measure.

The silliest part of this never ending debate is to compare the US higher education system to India, China, S. Korea, and Japan. In all those countries, there is an very strong correlation between income and admission to the top schools, even though admission is strictly test-based. Wealthy students are more likely to get in to BeiDa and IIT and Tokyo than into HYP. And in every one of those countries, the education ministries are deeply concerned that their schools fail to produce innovative thinkers and want to overhaul their systems to reduce academic burdens and reliance on test scores. Since the vast majority of students are destined to fail in those systems (as defined as admission to a top school), the pressure is enormous and everything besides test taking is tossed aside.

Why in the world should the US imitate higher education system that other countries are trying to make more like ours?

This makes some sense to me. I think some folks seem to think the US system is based solely on test scores and that would be "merit." IMO, there is a lot more to merit than perfect test scores. Any reasonably intelligent kid could get them with the right amount of prep. The selective schools are looking for more than that. They want to see passion, leadership, etc. (and money probably helps).

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The obsession with test scores and grades as a measure of meritocracy is laughable. What kind of merit do they measure? They don't aren't even very good predictors of college grades. (The College Board says all 3 SAT scores plus high school GPA have a correlation coefficient of just 0.48) There are a lot of factors that go into predicting whether a child will thrive at any given institution. There is no reason to privilege SAT and GPA over every other potential measure.

The silliest part of this never ending debate is to compare the US higher education system to India, China, S. Korea, and Japan. In all those countries, there is an very strong correlation between income and admission to the top schools, even though admission is strictly test-based. Wealthy students are more likely to get in to BeiDa and IIT and Tokyo than into HYP. And in every one of those countries, the education ministries are deeply concerned that their schools fail to produce innovative thinkers and want to overhaul their systems to reduce academic burdens and reliance on test scores. Since the vast majority of students are destined to fail in those systems (as defined as admission to a top school), the pressure is enormous and everything besides test taking is tossed aside.

Why in the world should the US imitate higher education system that other countries are trying to make more like ours?

This makes some sense to me. I think some folks seem to think the US system is based solely on test scores and that would be "merit." IMO, there is a lot more to merit than perfect test scores. Any reasonably intelligent kid could get them with the right amount of prep. The selective schools are looking for more than that. They want to see passion, leadership, etc. (and money probably helps).

Anonymous wrote:The obsession with test scores and grades as a measure of meritocracy is laughable. What kind of merit do they measure? They don't aren't even very good predictors of college grades. (The College Board says all 3 SAT scores plus high school GPA have a correlation coefficient of just 0.48) There are a lot of factors that go into predicting whether a child will thrive at any given institution. There is no reason to privilege SAT and GPA over every other potential measure.

The silliest part of this never ending debate is to compare the US higher education system to India, China, S. Korea, and Japan. In all those countries, there is an very strong correlation between income and admission to the top schools, even though admission is strictly test-based. Wealthy students are more likely to get in to BeiDa and IIT and Tokyo than into HYP. And in every one of those countries, the education ministries are deeply concerned that their schools fail to produce innovative thinkers and want to overhaul their systems to reduce academic burdens and reliance on test scores. Since the vast majority of students are destined to fail in those systems (as defined as admission to a top school), the pressure is enormous and everything besides test taking is tossed aside.

Why in the world should the US imitate higher education system that other countries are trying to make more like ours?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:more asians need to focus on sports instead. I am one of 4 asian siblings and I was the only one not to get into an elite college even though I had similar or better stats than my younger siblings.

I'm much older than them - I played sports but never trained in them with the mindset of using it as a 'hook' - we didn't understand that stuff. After I went through the process, I realized the best hook is getting recruited for sports so my younger siblings were all put in sports that they were good at - but the key difference is they were then pushed to excel in them by putting them in the best teams and sacrificing for them to play in the best competitions.

the results speak for themselves.

So my advice to tj/asian kids parents - make your kid focus on a sport and then make it like it is the 4th section of the SAT's.

I don't agree that a kid needs focus on being competetive at sports to the point of being a recruited athlete. Colleges just like to see kids who participate in sports, especially team sports where the goal is to work together with a group as opposed to sports where you mostly compete as an individual. Team sports teach a lot about working with others and how to be a good leader, qualities which college admissions officials know are useful in the academic setting, but even more so in the work world.

Colleges know that kids who have learned to be good teammates and leaders will do well both during and after their college years, so team sport experience is a plus. It's not the sports themselves that are important for most kids, it's the valuable lessons they learn from being on the team.

Anonymous wrote:The obsession with test scores and grades as a measure of meritocracy is laughable. What kind of merit do they measure? They don't aren't even very good predictors of college grades. (The College Board says all 3 SAT scores plus high school GPA have a correlation coefficient of just 0.48) There are a lot of factors that go into predicting whether a child will thrive at any given institution. There is no reason to privilege SAT and GPA over every other potential measure.

The silliest part of this never ending debate is to compare the US higher education system to India, China, S. Korea, and Japan. In all those countries, there is an very strong correlation between income and admission to the top schools, even though admission is strictly test-based. Wealthy students are more likely to get in to BeiDa and IIT and Tokyo than into HYP. And in every one of those countries, the education ministries are deeply concerned that their schools fail to produce innovative thinkers and want to overhaul their systems to reduce academic burdens and reliance on test scores. Since the vast majority of students are destined to fail in those systems (as defined as admission to a top school), the pressure is enormous and everything besides test taking is tossed aside.

Why in the world should the US imitate higher education system that other countries are trying to make more like ours?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All it means is that they consider the stuff that grades and tests scores don't cover.

The rich and influential will always get in- no matter what the criteria.

They consider those stuff not equally based on race.

They take points off for access to quality education and parents who put education as their priority and add points to students with not as much access to opportunities or parental support. It looks like racism because certain races are (on the whole) more educated and wealthier so they give their children more opportunities. This is due to our country's racist past and current structural racism. For example, one of the thing they look at is if it is a student who will be the first generation in the family to go to college.

There are Asians who are first generation college students (e.g. SE Asians) and there are many Asian parents whose first language is not English or not fluent with English and thus not able to offer much support to their children. These Asian children are disadvantaged due to their parents not being fluent with English and not being familiar with the public school system and yet they get no points unlike other minority groups and in fact they get penalized and are discriminated against in college admission. All the minority groups are disadvantaged including Asians.

Asians tend to excel DESPITE all the disadvantages in terms of language, culture, marginalization, lack of role models, zero political power etc. only to be excluded in college admission and in employment and promotion later on.

Anonymous wrote:more asians need to focus on sports instead. I am one of 4 asian siblings and I was the only one not to get into an elite college even though I had similar or better stats than my younger siblings.

I'm much older than them - I played sports but never trained in them with the mindset of using it as a 'hook' - we didn't understand that stuff. After I went through the process, I realized the best hook is getting recruited for sports so my younger siblings were all put in sports that they were good at - but the key difference is they were then pushed to excel in them by putting them in the best teams and sacrificing for them to play in the best competitions.

the results speak for themselves.

So my advice to tj/asian kids parents - make your kid focus on a sport and then make it like it is the 4th section of the SAT's.

Anonymous wrote:Asians only want them APPLIED CONSISTENTLY without illegal racial discrimination where one race has to show higher test scores, higher gpas, more club activities, more awards, more officer positions, more volunteer hours etc.

Anonymous wrote:Asian Americans do not argue for test scores or gpas to trump over other factors. In fact, colleges can use all the objective and subjective criteria they want to use. That is fine and dandy.

The problem is, pay attention now, the various criteria are APPLIED DIFFERENTLY based on race. Again Asians DO NOT complain about the factors used in college admissions at all. Asians only want them APPLIED CONSISTENTLY without illegal racial discrimination where one race has to show higher test scores, higher gpas, more club activities, more awards, more officer positions, more volunteer hours etc.