FWIW, this has not been my experience. The kids are pulled out for ESOL, and they learn English quickly. Some of this will depend on whether you live somewhere with a constant stream of new immigrants. Our neighborhood has sort of mid-priced affordable apartment buildings. So, around $1600 for a 2 bedroom. At that price point, you get working class families with low but not nonexistent English language skills, so their kids might enter kindy needing ESOL but eventually age out of it.

Anonymous wrote:This is why FCPS has AAP and why getting on top for many parents-myself included.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Alleluia! Parents are the key to success. Many low income kids have parents that DO care. Those kids will be successful. However, many more parents in low income don't care and those kids, sadly, will not succeed. It's parents, not FARMS and not teachers, that determines success.

.... Sure but FARMS percentages is one gauge for telling you what kind of parental situation you are dealing with. Somewhat.
The above previous post is true probably for some areas.
I have to say I live around a very large Ethiopian and el salvadorian immigrant population. Primarily 2 parent homes. The kids are clean and fed ( many using assistance, but I think/hope using it successfully).
Language is a definite barrier. Lack of formal parental education is a barrier. There is a fundamental difference though, when the parents are invested. Which seems to be the case with my neighbors.
It still makes me nervous sending DC to the local school in a couple of years. I wonder if all of the energy on esol will mean my kid isn't getting what they need.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Alleluia! Parents are the key to success. Many low income kids have parents that DO care. Those kids will be successful. However, many more parents in low income don't care and those kids, sadly, will not succeed. It's parents, not FARMS and not teachers, that determines success.

.... Sure but FARMS percentages is one gauge for telling you what kind of parental situation you are dealing with. Somewhat.
The above previous post is true probably for some areas.
I have to say I live around a very large Ethiopian and el salvadorian immigrant population. Primarily 2 parent homes. The kids are clean and fed ( many using assistance, but I think/hope using it successfully).
Language is a definite barrier. Lack of formal parental education is a barrier. There is a fundamental difference though, when the parents are invested. Which seems to be the case with my neighbors.
It still makes me nervous sending DC to the local school in a couple of years. I wonder if all of the energy on esol will mean my kid isn't getting what they need.

Alexander notes that Goldhaber and his colleagues have concluded is that "that around 9 percent of variation in student achievement is due to teacher characteristics. About 60 percent of variation is explainable by individual student characteristics, family characteristics, and such variables. All school input combined (teacher quality, class variables, etc.) account for approximately 21 percent of student outcomes." So even though teachers are the most important school-based factor in student achievement (however you measure it), a teacher's influence pales in comparison to factors from outside the school. So now you can explain to me the logic of how student testing and observations should count 100% of a teacher's evaluation for effectiveness when teachers, even the best ones, account for less than 10 percent of student achievement.

I don’t really care if you believe me or not.
You can google the research - and there is a TON of it out there.
The most significant factor in improving student learning is the teacher.
Here is just one article that outlines some of the research.
http://www.newteacher.com/pdf/NCPrincipalsExecProgram.pdf
And, yes, I have taught in several high “FARMS” schools. (I hate that acronym)
And, I never said that the teacher is responsible for all of society’s ills.

I don’t really care if you believe me or not.
You can google the research - and there is a TON of it out there.
The most significant factor in improving student learning is the teacher.
Here is just one article that outlines some of the research.
http://www.newteacher.com/pdf/NCPrincipalsExecProgram.pdf
And, yes, I have taught in several high “FARMS” schools. (I hate that acronym)
And, I never said that the teacher is responsible for all of society’s ills.

I wonder if all of the energy on esol will mean my kid isn't getting what they need.

Anonymous wrote:My two cents, racist and flameworthy as it will be:

We passed on a house in Hernando because while the specific neighborhood was nice, it was literally surrounded by lower income housing developments.

My point? I just didn't want to spend the next 20 years going to school events and being expected to pick up the slack with and for the families of line cooks, cleaning ladies/janitors and the like.

Hate on me all you want, but it's the reality. We want to live with those in our SES if we're going to (stretch) to buy a quarter of a million dollar home.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To the poster who thinks the teacher makes the difference:

Thanks so much for joining the ranks of idiots who feel teachers are responsible and accountable for all of society's ills by being the "better teacher." I rather doubt you are a teacher or that you actually teach in a high poverty school. In fact, I will call you out as a liar.

Behavior issues everywhere? Yes! However it is the difference between silliness, hyperactivity, and gang fights. Maryland, and all counties and Md have revised their discipline policies to such an extent that few kids are ever disciplined and they can really take over a class. Kids from poverty GENERALLY, but certainly NOT ALL, have low engagement because of issues that are comorbid with poverty- abuse, poor nutrition, negligence, health issues, and lack of parent involvement. This is not always because parents do not want to be involved- they can't- they are working, they are embarrassed,they do not speak the language, they have low literacy, they cannot afford technology, they are depressed, they don't have enough food, they don't have a fucking car, they have poor parental models themselves, they were 14 when they had the child and someone is still raising them and all of the other kids they've had since then, they are in and out of the prison system, they are on drugs, they are fired or lose their jobs frequently, they have a cell phone they cannot pay for all the time, they have to keep moving because they are in HUD housing, they need a cigarette and that will ALWAYS trump breakfast in the house, there is a cadre of " uncles" in and out of the house ( and they are not uncles...).

Kids in poverty have been raising themselves since they were able to walk. Life is generally on their terms. Following rules in a school rarely enter their world view- it's all about survival to them..every damn minute of the day. So take your middle class values and find another occupation to trash and blame, but a parent does need to understand that a high poverty school does not always mean that their child will learn to get along with the whole world- the reality is that so many ancillary resources are spent in dealing with emotional and behavioral issues that the curriculum very well takes a back seat. Any teacher in a high FARMS school will tell you this. It is rewarding on many levels, but it is an exhausting and perilous job- and teachers are increasingly held accountable for what they cannot control.

I don’t really care if you believe me or not.
You can google the research - and there is a TON of it out there.
The most significant factor in improving student learning is the teacher.
Here is just one article that outlines some of the research.
http://www.newteacher.com/pdf/NCPrincipalsExecProgram.pdf
And, yes, I have taught in several high “FARMS” schools. (I hate that acronym)
And, I never said that the teacher is responsible for all of society’s ills.

Anonymous wrote:To the poster who thinks the teacher makes the difference:

Thanks so much for joining the ranks of idiots who feel teachers are responsible and accountable for all of society's ills by being the "better teacher." I rather doubt you are a teacher or that you actually teach in a high poverty school. In fact, I will call you out as a liar.

Behavior issues everywhere? Yes! However it is the difference between silliness, hyperactivity, and gang fights. Maryland, and all counties and Md have revised their discipline policies to such an extent that few kids are ever disciplined and they can really take over a class. Kids from poverty GENERALLY, but certainly NOT ALL, have low engagement because of issues that are comorbid with poverty- abuse, poor nutrition, negligence, health issues, and lack of parent involvement. This is not always because parents do not want to be involved- they can't- they are working, they are embarrassed,they do not speak the language, they have low literacy, they cannot afford technology, they are depressed, they don't have enough food, they don't have a fucking car, they have poor parental models themselves, they were 14 when they had the child and someone is still raising them and all of the other kids they've had since then, they are in and out of the prison system, they are on drugs, they are fired or lose their jobs frequently, they have a cell phone they cannot pay for all the time, they have to keep moving because they are in HUD housing, they need a cigarette and that will ALWAYS trump breakfast in the house, there is a cadre of " uncles" in and out of the house ( and they are not uncles...).

Kids in poverty have been raising themselves since they were able to walk. Life is generally on their terms. Following rules in a school rarely enter their world view- it's all about survival to them..every damn minute of the day. So take your middle class values and find another occupation to trash and blame, but a parent does need to understand that a high poverty school does not always mean that their child will learn to get along with the whole world- the reality is that so many ancillary resources are spent in dealing with emotional and behavioral issues that the curriculum very well takes a back seat. Any teacher in a high FARMS school will tell you this. It is rewarding on many levels, but it is an exhausting and perilous job- and teachers are increasingly held accountable for what they cannot control.

Anonymous wrote:To the poster who thinks the teacher makes the difference:

Thanks so much for joining the ranks of idiots who feel teachers are responsible and accountable for all of society's ills by being the "better teacher." I rather doubt you are a teacher or that you actually teach in a high poverty school. In fact, I will call you out as a liar.

Behavior issues everywhere? Yes! However it is the difference between silliness, hyperactivity, and gang fights. Maryland, and all counties and Md have revised their discipline policies to such an extent that few kids are ever disciplined and they can really take over a class. Kids from poverty GENERALLY, but certainly NOT ALL, have low engagement because of issues that are comorbid with poverty- abuse, poor nutrition, negligence, health issues, and lack of parent involvement. This is not always because parents do not want to be involved- they can't- they are working, they are embarrassed,they do not speak the language, they have low literacy, they cannot afford technology, they are depressed, they don't have enough food, they don't have a fucking car, they have poor parental models themselves, they were 14 when they had the child and someone is still raising them and all of the other kids they've had since then, they are in and out of the prison system, they are on drugs, they are fired or lose their jobs frequently, they have a cell phone they cannot pay for all the time, they have to keep moving because they are in HUD housing, they need a cigarette and that will ALWAYS trump breakfast in the house, there is a cadre of " uncles" in and out of the house ( and they are not uncles...).

Kids in poverty have been raising themselves since they were able to walk. Life is generally on their terms. Following rules in a school rarely enter their world view- it's all about survival to them..every damn minute of the day. So take your middle class values and find another occupation to trash and blame, but a parent does need to understand that a high poverty school does not always mean that their child will learn to get along with the whole world- the reality is that so many ancillary resources are spent in dealing with emotional and behavioral issues that the curriculum very well takes a back seat. Any teacher in a high FARMS school will tell you this. It is rewarding on many levels, but it is an exhausting and perilous job- and teachers are increasingly held accountable for what they cannot control.