Anonymous wrote:Something very important is being lost in this discussion. People are spending a lot of time talking about the Civil War, but SC did not start flying the confederate flag on the capitol grounds until the 1960s, and this was done as a symbol of resistance to the burgeoning civil rights movement (this point is very well documented by contemporaneous statements). So all this talk about the Civil War is really besides the point. The stated purpose of flying the flag (at least in SC) is hostility to equal rights for African-Americans.

Well, I do see it as the same conversation, but yes, you're right. SC started flying the Confederate flag in the 60s as a direct protest of the civil rights movement. However, it was removed from the State House in 2000, relocated to a spot on capitol grounds and within view. It seems that it may be time to revisit the "compromise" that moved it there.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/06/19/why-south-carolinas-confederate-flag-isnt-at-half-mast-after-church-shooting/

Something very important is being lost in this discussion. People are spending a lot of time talking about the Civil War, but SC did not start flying the confederate flag on the capitol grounds until the 1960s, and this was done as a symbol of resistance to the burgeoning civil rights movement (this point is very well documented by contemporaneous statements). So all this talk about the Civil War is really besides the point. The stated purpose of flying the flag (at least in SC) is hostility to equal rights for African-Americans.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is weird that it is flown anywhere outside of private residences. It was the flag of a rebellious treason in the USA. It represents an oppressive regime that sold and purchased black bodies.

What is "rebellious treason" to you can be considered "a quest for independence" by others.

A flag is nothing but a symbol, and of course different people can perceive the same flag in different ways. The Confederate Battle Flag is no exception.

Oh FFS, you lost. Get over it already.

You fool, my ancestors were not even in this country then. And, given the standards of living of AAs in the US today, and their constante whining, I am a bit confused about who really won.

I'm confused about why a (relatively recent) immigrant would give enough of a damn about this flag to defend it.

I don't give a damn about that flag, and I am not defending it. I do give a damn about people trying to impose their views on others, about people judging others without understanding them. (If this thread was full of people from SC attacking people from NY, I'd be "defending the North")

What is it that we don't understand about the people of South Carolina that explains their support for flying the Confederate Battle Flag over their state capital? Keep in mind that the history of the decision to fly that flag is very well documented.

I don't think we understand whether the majority of South Carolinians who want to fly that flag do so (a) for chauvinist reasons (the most typical reason to rally behind a flag--any flag), or (b) for racist ones (they want to make the statement that blacks are not welcome there). In the absence of such understanding, jumping straight to option (b) is wrong, IMO.

Does it really matter? In (b) they offend blacks because they hate them; in (a) they offend blacks because they are indifferent to them. Either way, they are disrespectful to the concerns of 30% of their population.

It matters a lot. Many if not most flags around the world are going to offend some (smaller or larger) minority group, so that in itself is not a reason to cry foul.

To take your argument to a logical extreme, what if 30% of the population in the US (imagine many whites living in the South) are offended by the star and stripes flag? Would that mean everyone defending it is racist? Would it be a compelling reason to change the national flag?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is weird that it is flown anywhere outside of private residences. It was the flag of a rebellious treason in the USA. It represents an oppressive regime that sold and purchased black bodies.

What is "rebellious treason" to you can be considered "a quest for independence" by others.

A flag is nothing but a symbol, and of course different people can perceive the same flag in different ways. The Confederate Battle Flag is no exception.

Oh FFS, you lost. Get over it already.

You fool, my ancestors were not even in this country then. And, given the standards of living of AAs in the US today, and their constante whining, I am a bit confused about who really won.

I'm confused about why a (relatively recent) immigrant would give enough of a damn about this flag to defend it.

I don't give a damn about that flag, and I am not defending it. I do give a damn about people trying to impose their views on others, about people judging others without understanding them. (If this thread was full of people from SC attacking people from NY, I'd be "defending the North")

What is it that we don't understand about the people of South Carolina that explains their support for flying the Confederate Battle Flag over their state capital? Keep in mind that the history of the decision to fly that flag is very well documented.

I think the true question is what political gain do liberals have by destroying Hayley and the state of SC?

Lots of other states stopped flying the stars and bars. Last I looked, they are all still here.

Your opinion is morally reprehensible and you should be ashamed. If the majority of people had a vote, black people would still be slaves, jim crow would still exist, poll taxes would have continued and black people still would not be able to vote.

Just because the majority wants something, does not make it right. We are a civilized society and you should understand that.

I'm pretty sure that you responded to the wrong poster. The PP also opposes flying the Confederate flag and is simply pointing out that several states have stopped flying the flag without suffering political repercussions. That is in response to the poster who believes "liberals" are faking their outrage in order to destroy South Carolina.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is weird that it is flown anywhere outside of private residences. It was the flag of a rebellious treason in the USA. It represents an oppressive regime that sold and purchased black bodies.

What is "rebellious treason" to you can be considered "a quest for independence" by others.

A flag is nothing but a symbol, and of course different people can perceive the same flag in different ways. The Confederate Battle Flag is no exception.

Oh FFS, you lost. Get over it already.

You fool, my ancestors were not even in this country then. And, given the standards of living of AAs in the US today, and their constante whining, I am a bit confused about who really won.

I'm confused about why a (relatively recent) immigrant would give enough of a damn about this flag to defend it.

I don't give a damn about that flag, and I am not defending it. I do give a damn about people trying to impose their views on others, about people judging others without understanding them. (If this thread was full of people from SC attacking people from NY, I'd be "defending the North")

What is it that we don't understand about the people of South Carolina that explains their support for flying the Confederate Battle Flag over their state capital? Keep in mind that the history of the decision to fly that flag is very well documented.

I think the true question is what political gain do liberals have by destroying Hayley and the state of SC?

Lots of other states stopped flying the stars and bars. Last I looked, they are all still here.

Your opinion is morally reprehensible and you should be ashamed. If the majority of people had a vote, black people would still be slaves, jim crow would still exist, poll taxes would have continued and black people still would not be able to vote.

Just because the majority wants something, does not make it right. We are a civilized society and you should understand that.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The flag is a symbol, and as such, has different meanings to different people.

I get the same feeling when I see the Confederate flag as I have when I see someone burning the flag of the US - I think it is sad. But, I believe that people have the right to fly the Confederate flag just as people have the right to burn the US flag. I would never do either.

As an AA woman, I agree that people should be able to fly whatever flag they wish. However, I feel differently about the State of South Carolina.

Well, that State doesn't represent you or me, but the citizens actually living and voting there.

So if we find some citizens of South Carolina that agree with me that it is inappropriate for the state to fly that flag, then....?

If the majority of people living there wanted to change their THEIR flag, I expect that they would. Unless selecting state flags becomes federal business, I am not sure why we're discussing this, honestly.

Would you put a swastika on a flag and hang it? No way. It's not illegal to do so. What's the difference?

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is weird that it is flown anywhere outside of private residences. It was the flag of a rebellious treason in the USA. It represents an oppressive regime that sold and purchased black bodies.

What is "rebellious treason" to you can be considered "a quest for independence" by others.

A flag is nothing but a symbol, and of course different people can perceive the same flag in different ways. The Confederate Battle Flag is no exception.

Oh FFS, you lost. Get over it already.

You fool, my ancestors were not even in this country then. And, given the standards of living of AAs in the US today, and their constante whining, I am a bit confused about who really won.

I'm confused about why a (relatively recent) immigrant would give enough of a damn about this flag to defend it.

I don't give a damn about that flag, and I am not defending it. I do give a damn about people trying to impose their views on others, about people judging others without understanding them. (If this thread was full of people from SC attacking people from NY, I'd be "defending the North")

What is it that we don't understand about the people of South Carolina that explains their support for flying the Confederate Battle Flag over their state capital? Keep in mind that the history of the decision to fly that flag is very well documented.

I don't think we understand whether the majority of South Carolinians who want to fly that flag do so (a) for chauvinist reasons (the most typical reason to rally behind a flag--any flag), or (b) for racist ones (they want to make the statement that blacks are not welcome there). In the absence of such understanding, jumping straight to option (b) is wrong, IMO.

Does it really matter? In (b) they offend blacks because they hate them; in (a) they offend blacks because they are indifferent to them. Either way, they are disrespectful to the concerns of 30% of their population.

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is weird that it is flown anywhere outside of private residences. It was the flag of a rebellious treason in the USA. It represents an oppressive regime that sold and purchased black bodies.

What is "rebellious treason" to you can be considered "a quest for independence" by others.

A flag is nothing but a symbol, and of course different people can perceive the same flag in different ways. The Confederate Battle Flag is no exception.

Oh FFS, you lost. Get over it already.

You fool, my ancestors were not even in this country then. And, given the standards of living of AAs in the US today, and their constante whining, I am a bit confused about who really won.

I'm confused about why a (relatively recent) immigrant would give enough of a damn about this flag to defend it.

I don't give a damn about that flag, and I am not defending it. I do give a damn about people trying to impose their views on others, about people judging others without understanding them. (If this thread was full of people from SC attacking people from NY, I'd be "defending the North")

What is it that we don't understand about the people of South Carolina that explains their support for flying the Confederate Battle Flag over their state capital? Keep in mind that the history of the decision to fly that flag is very well documented.

I don't think we understand whether the majority of South Carolinians who want to fly that flag do so (a) for chauvinist reasons (the most typical reason to rally behind a flag--any flag), or (b) for racist ones (they want to make the statement that blacks are not welcome there). In the absence of such understanding, jumping straight to option (b) is wrong, IMO.

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is weird that it is flown anywhere outside of private residences. It was the flag of a rebellious treason in the USA. It represents an oppressive regime that sold and purchased black bodies.

What is "rebellious treason" to you can be considered "a quest for independence" by others.

A flag is nothing but a symbol, and of course different people can perceive the same flag in different ways. The Confederate Battle Flag is no exception.

Oh FFS, you lost. Get over it already.

You fool, my ancestors were not even in this country then. And, given the standards of living of AAs in the US today, and their constante whining, I am a bit confused about who really won.

I'm confused about why a (relatively recent) immigrant would give enough of a damn about this flag to defend it.

I don't give a damn about that flag, and I am not defending it. I do give a damn about people trying to impose their views on others, about people judging others without understanding them. (If this thread was full of people from SC attacking people from NY, I'd be "defending the North")

What is it that we don't understand about the people of South Carolina that explains their support for flying the Confederate Battle Flag over their state capital? Keep in mind that the history of the decision to fly that flag is very well documented.

I think the true question is what political gain do liberals have by destroying Hayley and the state of SC?

Lots of other states stopped flying the stars and bars. Last I looked, they are all still here.

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is weird that it is flown anywhere outside of private residences. It was the flag of a rebellious treason in the USA. It represents an oppressive regime that sold and purchased black bodies.

What is "rebellious treason" to you can be considered "a quest for independence" by others.

A flag is nothing but a symbol, and of course different people can perceive the same flag in different ways. The Confederate Battle Flag is no exception.

Oh FFS, you lost. Get over it already.

You fool, my ancestors were not even in this country then. And, given the standards of living of AAs in the US today, and their constante whining, I am a bit confused about who really won.

I'm confused about why a (relatively recent) immigrant would give enough of a damn about this flag to defend it.

I don't give a damn about that flag, and I am not defending it. I do give a damn about people trying to impose their views on others, about people judging others without understanding them. (If this thread was full of people from SC attacking people from NY, I'd be "defending the North")

What is it that we don't understand about the people of South Carolina that explains their support for flying the Confederate Battle Flag over their state capital? Keep in mind that the history of the decision to fly that flag is very well documented.

I think the true question is what political gain do liberals have by destroying Hayley and the state of SC?

Don't think you're just arguing with Jeff. I grew up in the South, know all about the flag and the" good" things people associate with it. At the heart of it, the flag represents slavery and racism. It's pretty sad that it flies at a State House.

I understand what PPs are saying, that the people who are most offended by it would rather focus on more useful issues. That means the people who want it there should grow up and take it down.

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is weird that it is flown anywhere outside of private residences. It was the flag of a rebellious treason in the USA. It represents an oppressive regime that sold and purchased black bodies.

What is "rebellious treason" to you can be considered "a quest for independence" by others.

A flag is nothing but a symbol, and of course different people can perceive the same flag in different ways. The Confederate Battle Flag is no exception.

Oh FFS, you lost. Get over it already.

You fool, my ancestors were not even in this country then. And, given the standards of living of AAs in the US today, and their constante whining, I am a bit confused about who really won.

I'm confused about why a (relatively recent) immigrant would give enough of a damn about this flag to defend it.

I don't give a damn about that flag, and I am not defending it. I do give a damn about people trying to impose their views on others, about people judging others without understanding them. (If this thread was full of people from SC attacking people from NY, I'd be "defending the North")

What is it that we don't understand about the people of South Carolina that explains their support for flying the Confederate Battle Flag over their state capital? Keep in mind that the history of the decision to fly that flag is very well documented.

I think the true question is what political gain do liberals have by destroying Hayley and the state of SC?

I really don't know why you have to see every single thing as part of some political game. If something is wrong, it is wrong. It doesn't matter what the political calculus is. If South Carolina were flying the ISIS flag over their capital, would you just ignore it?

Yesterday, the South Carolina and United States flags at the SC statehouse were lowered to half-mast. The Confederate flag remained at full-mast. Why? Because SC state law prohibits any modification to the flag without the legislature's approval.

So, a guy with a Confederate flag on his car drives up to the oldest black church in the South, goes in and murders 9 people during a prayer service, and that flag that he honors is the only one of the three that can't be lowered. Literally, as a result of Roof's actions, the Confederate flag flew above all other flags as the SC statehouse. You don't find anything wrong with that?

What is your excuse for putting political above decency?

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is weird that it is flown anywhere outside of private residences. It was the flag of a rebellious treason in the USA. It represents an oppressive regime that sold and purchased black bodies.

What is "rebellious treason" to you can be considered "a quest for independence" by others.

A flag is nothing but a symbol, and of course different people can perceive the same flag in different ways. The Confederate Battle Flag is no exception.

Oh FFS, you lost. Get over it already.

You fool, my ancestors were not even in this country then. And, given the standards of living of AAs in the US today, and their constante whining, I am a bit confused about who really won.

I'm confused about why a (relatively recent) immigrant would give enough of a damn about this flag to defend it.

I don't give a damn about that flag, and I am not defending it. I do give a damn about people trying to impose their views on others, about people judging others without understanding them. (If this thread was full of people from SC attacking people from NY, I'd be "defending the North")

What is it that we don't understand about the people of South Carolina that explains their support for flying the Confederate Battle Flag over their state capital? Keep in mind that the history of the decision to fly that flag is very well documented.

I think the true question is what political gain do liberals have by destroying Hayley and the state of SC?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is weird that it is flown anywhere outside of private residences. It was the flag of a rebellious treason in the USA. It represents an oppressive regime that sold and purchased black bodies.

What is "rebellious treason" to you can be considered "a quest for independence" by others.

A flag is nothing but a symbol, and of course different people can perceive the same flag in different ways. The Confederate Battle Flag is no exception.

Oh FFS, you lost. Get over it already.

You fool, my ancestors were not even in this country then. And, given the standards of living of AAs in the US today, and their constante whining, I am a bit confused about who really won.

I'm confused about why a (relatively recent) immigrant would give enough of a damn about this flag to defend it.

I don't give a damn about that flag, and I am not defending it. I do give a damn about people trying to impose their views on others, about people judging others without understanding them. (If this thread was full of people from SC attacking people from NY, I'd be "defending the North")

What is it that we don't understand about the people of South Carolina that explains their support for flying the Confederate Battle Flag over their state capital? Keep in mind that the history of the decision to fly that flag is very well documented.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is weird that it is flown anywhere outside of private residences. It was the flag of a rebellious treason in the USA. It represents an oppressive regime that sold and purchased black bodies.

What is "rebellious treason" to you can be considered "a quest for independence" by others.

A flag is nothing but a symbol, and of course different people can perceive the same flag in different ways. The Confederate Battle Flag is no exception.

Oh FFS, you lost. Get over it already.

You fool, my ancestors were not even in this country then. And, given the standards of living of AAs in the US today, and their constante whining, I am a bit confused about who really won.

I'm confused about why a (relatively recent) immigrant would give enough of a damn about this flag to defend it.

Much better for him to act like illegals do, with demands of free stuff and demands that we not display the flag on our cars, etc because...raaaccciiisssttt.

Thank you to the recent immigrant who cares about his/her adopted country. Welcome!!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is weird that it is flown anywhere outside of private residences. It was the flag of a rebellious treason in the USA. It represents an oppressive regime that sold and purchased black bodies.

What is "rebellious treason" to you can be considered "a quest for independence" by others.

A flag is nothing but a symbol, and of course different people can perceive the same flag in different ways. The Confederate Battle Flag is no exception.

Oh FFS, you lost. Get over it already.

You fool, my ancestors were not even in this country then. And, given the standards of living of AAs in the US today, and their constante whining, I am a bit confused about who really won.

I'm confused about why a (relatively recent) immigrant would give enough of a damn about this flag to defend it.

I don't give a damn about that flag, and I am not defending it. I do give a damn about people trying to impose their views on others, about people judging others without understanding them. (If this thread was full of people from SC attacking people from NY, I'd be "defending the North")