Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:God seems to get the best job performance reviews. He gets credit for all the good stuff and the bad things are just part of "his plan".

You gotta give him credit for the good stuff. He gets really mad if you don't. Remember - he is the boss. He is rating us, not the other way around.

He's rating us?

So that's how this god thing works?

Let's pit one person against another to see who's the better person!

ridiculous, fear-based bullshit

God is not actually rating us, as in keeping score and having a cut off for who gets to heaven and who doesn't. You don't need a certain amount of points to get into heaven - it's much easier than that. You just have to accept Christ as your savior to avoid God's punishment and open yourself to his love.

If you're really not sure you believe, just say you do. It's to your own benefit. God might let you in for being willing to play along and hedge your bets. If you're arrogant about it and it turns out you're wrong, then you go to hell for eternity. The other option is that life just ends, the way it does for all other living things who don't have the mental capacity for story telling or trying to control the behavior of other members of their species. But why take a chance?

uh

Who's arrogant here?

If an atheist works to benefit humanity - works with children in foster care, for example, or treats victims of abuse - that person will end up in hell for eternity.

Yet the child rapist who chooses to believe right before his death will spend eternity with God, yes?

I love fairy tales. I hope yours ends on a happy note!

And yes, he's rating us.

at least according to your interpretation

But why bother? I won't be seeing you in the afterlife, as I'll be burning in hell.

OK, God is rating us, but just on this one thing: do we accept him as our savior. Or at least will we say we accept him and make an effort to believe it.

God loves everyone, including the good atheist and the child rapist you mention above. But irrespective of how they live their lives on earth, they can both get into heaven, if they just accept Jesus as their savior before they die. Of course, some people, unrelated to how good or bad they are, die very suddenly without time to accept Jesus at the very last second[b], so it's better to accept him while you're still in reasonable health.

I love this line, Dr. Expert!

The "good" atheist dies from some horrible disease while doing humanitarian work in some impoverished country, yet will NOT enter heaven.

"I'm sorry," says God. "You're too late."

It's not a matter of being "Dr. Exper"t, it's simply about heeding Christ's offer to believe that he died for our sins so you can live with him forever in heaven.

While no human can speak for God, perhaps God can appreciate the atheist's good work and be perplexed that he or she won't accept Christ as their savior, and then enforces his very clear-cut rule about entry into heaven.

Atheists may have a hard time with this, but Christians get it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:God seems to get the best job performance reviews. He gets credit for all the good stuff and the bad things are just part of "his plan".

You gotta give him credit for the good stuff. He gets really mad if you don't. Remember - he is the boss. He is rating us, not the other way around.

He's rating us?

So that's how this god thing works?

Let's pit one person against another to see who's the better person!

ridiculous, fear-based bullshit

God is not actually rating us, as in keeping score and having a cut off for who gets to heaven and who doesn't. You don't need a certain amount of points to get into heaven - it's much easier than that. You just have to accept Christ as your savior to avoid God's punishment and open yourself to his love.

If you're really not sure you believe, just say you do. It's to your own benefit. God might let you in for being willing to play along and hedge your bets. If you're arrogant about it and it turns out you're wrong, then you go to hell for eternity. The other option is that life just ends, the way it does for all other living things who don't have the mental capacity for story telling or trying to control the behavior of other members of their species. But why take a chance?

uh

Who's arrogant here?

If an atheist works to benefit humanity - works with children in foster care, for example, or treats victims of abuse - that person will end up in hell for eternity.

Yet the child rapist who chooses to believe right before his death will spend eternity with God, yes?

I love fairy tales. I hope yours ends on a happy note!

And yes, he's rating us.

at least according to your interpretation

But why bother? I won't be seeing you in the afterlife, as I'll be burning in hell.

OK, God is rating us, but just on this one thing: do we accept him as our savior. Or at least will we say we accept him and make an effort to believe it.

God loves everyone, including the good atheist and the child rapist you mention above. But irrespective of how they live their lives on earth, they can both get into heaven, if they just accept Jesus as their savior before they die. Of course, some people, unrelated to how good or bad they are, die very suddenly without time to accept Jesus at the very last second[b], so it's better to accept him while you're still in reasonable health.

I love this line, Dr. Expert!

The "good" atheist dies from some horrible disease while doing humanitarian work in some impoverished country, yet will NOT enter heaven.

"I'm sorry," says God. "You're too late."

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:God seems to get the best job performance reviews. He gets credit for all the good stuff and the bad things are just part of "his plan".

You gotta give him credit for the good stuff. He gets really mad if you don't. Remember - he is the boss. He is rating us, not the other way around.

He's rating us?

So that's how this god thing works?

Let's pit one person against another to see who's the better person!

ridiculous, fear-based bullshit

God is not actually rating us, as in keeping score and having a cut off for who gets to heaven and who doesn't. You don't need a certain amount of points to get into heaven - it's much easier than that. You just have to accept Christ as your savior to avoid God's punishment and open yourself to his love.

If you're really not sure you believe, just say you do. It's to your own benefit. God might let you in for being willing to play along and hedge your bets. If you're arrogant about it and it turns out you're wrong, then you go to hell for eternity. The other option is that life just ends, the way it does for all other living things who don't have the mental capacity for story telling or trying to control the behavior of other members of their species. But why take a chance?

uh

Who's arrogant here?

If an atheist works to benefit humanity - works with children in foster care, for example, or treats victims of abuse - that person will end up in hell for eternity.

Yet the child rapist who chooses to believe right before his death will spend eternity with God, yes?

I love fairy tales. I hope yours ends on a happy note!

And yes, he's rating us.

at least according to your interpretation

But why bother? I won't be seeing you in the afterlife, as I'll be burning in hell.

OK, God is rating us, but just on this one thing: do we accept him as our savior. Or at least will we say we accept him and make an effort to believe it.

God loves everyone, including the good atheist and the child rapist you mention above. But irrespective of how they live their lives on earth, they can both get into heaven, if they just accept Jesus as their savior before they die. Of course, some people, unrelated to how good or bad they are, die very suddenly without time to accept Jesus at the very last second, so it's better to accept him while you're still in reasonable health.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:God seems to get the best job performance reviews. He gets credit for all the good stuff and the bad things are just part of "his plan".

You gotta give him credit for the good stuff. He gets really mad if you don't. Remember - he is the boss. He is rating us, not the other way around.

He's rating us?

So that's how this god thing works?

Let's pit one person against another to see who's the better person!

ridiculous, fear-based bullshit

God is not actually rating us, as in keeping score and having a cut off for who gets to heaven and who doesn't. You don't need a certain amount of points to get into heaven - it's much easier than that. You just have to accept Christ as your savior to avoid God's punishment and open yourself to his love.

If you're really not sure you believe, just say you do. It's to your own benefit. God might let you in for being willing to play along and hedge your bets. If you're arrogant about it and it turns out you're wrong, then you go to hell for eternity. The other option is that life just ends, the way it does for all other living things who don't have the mental capacity for story telling or trying to control the behavior of other members of their species. But why take a chance?

uh

Who's arrogant here?

If an atheist works to benefit humanity - works with children in foster care, for example, or treats victims of abuse - that person will end up in hell for eternity.

Yet the child rapist who chooses to believe right before his death will spend eternity with God, yes?

I love fairy tales. I hope yours ends on a happy note!

And yes, he's rating us.

at least according to your interpretation

But why bother? I won't be seeing you in the afterlife, as I'll be burning in hell.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:God seems to get the best job performance reviews. He gets credit for all the good stuff and the bad things are just part of "his plan".

You gotta give him credit for the good stuff. He gets really mad if you don't. Remember - he is the boss. He is rating us, not the other way around.

He's rating us?

So that's how this god thing works?

Let's pit one person against another to see who's the better person!

ridiculous, fear-based bullshit

God is not actually rating us, as in keeping score and having a cut off for who gets to heaven and who doesn't. You don't need a certain amount of points to get into heaven - it's much easier than that. You just have to accept Christ as your savior to avoid God's punishment and open yourself to his love.

If you're really not sure you believe, just say you do. It's to your own benefit. God might let you in for being willing to play along and hedge your bets. If you're arrogant about it and it turns out you're wrong, then you go to hell for eternity. The other option is that life just ends, the way it does for all other living things who don't have the mental capacity for story telling or trying to control the behavior of other members of their species. But why take a chance?

uh

Who's arrogant here?

If an atheist works to benefit humanity - works with children in foster care, for example, or treats victims of abuse - that person will end up in hell for eternity.

Yet the child rapist who chooses to believe right before his death will spend eternity with God, yes?

I love fairy tales. I hope yours ends on a happy note!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:God seems to get the best job performance reviews. He gets credit for all the good stuff and the bad things are just part of "his plan".

You gotta give him credit for the good stuff. He gets really mad if you don't. Remember - he is the boss. He is rating us, not the other way around.

He's rating us?

So that's how this god thing works?

Let's pit one person against another to see who's the better person!

ridiculous, fear-based bullshit

God is not actually rating us, as in keeping score and having a cut off for who gets to heaven and who doesn't. You don't need a certain amount of points to get into heaven - it's much easier than that. You just have to accept Christ as your savior to avoid God's punishment and open yourself to his love.

If you're really not sure you believe, just say you do. It's to your own benefit. God might let you in for being willing to play along and hedge your bets. If you're arrogant about it and it turns out you're wrong, then you go to hell for eternity. The other option is that life just ends, the way it does for all other living things who don't have the mental capacity for story telling or trying to control the behavior of other members of their species. But why take a chance?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:God seems to get the best job performance reviews. He gets credit for all the good stuff and the bad things are just part of "his plan".

You gotta give him credit for the good stuff. He gets really mad if you don't. Remember - he is the boss. He is rating us, not the other way around.

He's rating us?

So that's how this god thing works?

Let's pit one person against another to see who's the better person!

ridiculous, fear-based bullshit

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Everything in my life has been in a downward spiral for the past two years. Finances shrinking, my special needs child regressing, difficult patch in our marriage as DH goes through his own personal crisis, sibling getting cancer, just everything going bad.

I've always been good and walked the straight and narrow road. Always honest, always trying hard to be kind even when I don't want to be, always trying not to wish ill on those who hurt me, always acting ethically.

This is not actually a thread about my personal situation though. Curious to hear from people who held on to their faith when life was proving them wrong about having faith in the first place. Like every signal you get is that there is no hope, no justice, nothing watching over you.

As a Roman Catholic, I can tell you that suffering and hardship is looked upon as a chance to offer up your pain for those who have died and are in purgatory. Or as a way to connect with Jesus and His suffering for us. When it gets really bad for me, I think of what He went through for absolutely no reason except out of love. It gives me a different perspective. It's a choice you have to maks to be able to do that. But when you are suffering and then start remembering that the suffering can have a useful purpose, it really helps. Just another point of view.

Some people get many more opportunities to suffer than others. They can help the people in purgatory much more than people who don't suffer. So if you think about it that way, your prayers that are not answered to alleviate your own suffering, are helping some sinners who you don't even know get out of purgatory sooner. Then when they get to heaven, they will be in a position to intercede for you with god. So, if you think of it that way, it ups your chances to get your prayers answered, eventually. It does seem a little far fetched and contrived though, as if God and his angels are just as conniving as people on earth, trying to pull strings with the higher ups to get special favors.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:At least that's what the Bible teaches.

The Bible doesn't teach us to fear God. God is love. He IS love. That is what the Bible teaches.

Let’s look at how the Bible describes love, and then we will see a few ways in which God is the essence of love. “Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails” (1 Corinthians 13:4-8a). This is God's description of love, and because God is love (1 John 4:8), this is what He is like.

Love (God) does not force Himself on anyone. Those who come to Him do so in response to His love. Love (God) shows kindness to all. Love (Jesus) went about doing good to everyone without partiality. Love (Jesus) did not covet what others had, living a humble life without complaining. Love (Jesus) did not brag about who He was in the flesh, although He could have overpowered anyone He ever came in contact with. Love (God) does not demand obedience. God did not demand obedience from His Son, but rather, Jesus willingly obeyed His Father in heaven. “The world must learn that I love the Father and that I do exactly what my Father has commanded me” (John 14:31). Love (Jesus) was/is always looking out for the interests of others.

He loves people who believe in him, but if you don't believe in him, he sends you to hell. He gives you all sorts of chances while you're alive to love him and if you decide not to, it's your own fault for using the gift of free will, that he also gave you, in that way.

He died on the cross - a very painful way to die - and then spent about 36 hours over a three day period in hell for you and if you don't believe it, then he sends you to hell for eternity. Meanwhile, after his own brief period in hell, he ascended bodily into heaven and sits there forever next to his father. If you can believe this, or at least say that you believe it, you have a chance of going to heaven too. Otherwise, if you're wrong, you go to hell. Why take a chance like that? Why not just say you believe it, even if it sounds far fetched and not something a loving or intelligent God would do.

Anonymous wrote:At least that's what the Bible teaches.

The Bible doesn't teach us to fear God. God is love. He IS love. That is what the Bible teaches.

Let’s look at how the Bible describes love, and then we will see a few ways in which God is the essence of love. “Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails” (1 Corinthians 13:4-8a). This is God's description of love, and because God is love (1 John 4:8), this is what He is like.

Love (God) does not force Himself on anyone. Those who come to Him do so in response to His love. Love (God) shows kindness to all. Love (Jesus) went about doing good to everyone without partiality. Love (Jesus) did not covet what others had, living a humble life without complaining. Love (Jesus) did not brag about who He was in the flesh, although He could have overpowered anyone He ever came in contact with. Love (God) does not demand obedience. God did not demand obedience from His Son, but rather, Jesus willingly obeyed His Father in heaven. “The world must learn that I love the Father and that I do exactly what my Father has commanded me” (John 14:31). Love (Jesus) was/is always looking out for the interests of others.

Anonymous wrote:Everything in my life has been in a downward spiral for the past two years. Finances shrinking, my special needs child regressing, difficult patch in our marriage as DH goes through his own personal crisis, sibling getting cancer, just everything going bad.

I've always been good and walked the straight and narrow road. Always honest, always trying hard to be kind even when I don't want to be, always trying not to wish ill on those who hurt me, always acting ethically.

This is not actually a thread about my personal situation though. Curious to hear from people who held on to their faith when life was proving them wrong about having faith in the first place. Like every signal you get is that there is no hope, no justice, nothing watching over you.

As a Roman Catholic, I can tell you that suffering and hardship is looked upon as a chance to offer up your pain for those who have died and are in purgatory. Or as a way to connect with Jesus and His suffering for us. When it gets really bad for me, I think of what He went through for absolutely no reason except out of love. It gives me a different perspective. It's a choice you have to maks to be able to do that. But when you are suffering and then start remembering that the suffering can have a useful purpose, it really helps. Just another point of view.

It helps me not to think too much of "religion" ie God. Personally I do consider myself a person of faith and believe in God though I do not go to Church on a regular basis nor practice organized religion ie Lent, etc. What helps me in having faith is the notion that everything is as it should be. EVERYTHING is perfect. Faith to me is acceptance of everything must be this because there is no other way. The good and the bad, the light and the dark are not opposites but the way. That is maybe more Buddhist or Tao in nature but you can be of any religion, Catholic, Buddhist, etc and come back to this notion that everything is as it should be - whether it's God's plan or the Universe' plan.

I grew up abused physically and mentally as an only child. I lived a lifetime of pain and loneliness that few could guess unless they knew me. You'd never know my hell by knowing me because I'm so "normal." Normal in terms that I have a healthy stable marriage to a man who respects me and 2 adorable little ones. I've been successful at my career and have good friends, etc. I'm not perfect and have the daily headaches everyone has and the problems that everyone has but basically, I've come through a lot of hell and my point is, you really would not have guessed it. Never did therapy. Just hung on to this idea that everything is as it should be. I don't know that I've really "forgiven" my parents but I haven't let it eat me up either. I accept what has happened and life has healed me in terms of given me time to experience joys and grief. There was a time I was very very angry in my 20s (i'm in my early 40s now) until I met a guy I dated who really taught me about faith and acceptance. He taught me that if those who hurt me could have known better they would have done better - that what happened to cause so much pain and grief couldn't be avoided then. To accept that there was no other actions that could have been taken was to finally allow myself to go forward. I don't know why but for me personally, something clicked about that notion, and I believed him. It's a personal acceptance that applied in my circumstance and it may not work for others I realize. Maybe it was due to the relationship I had with this guy - the love healed me as much or that I believed him more because I also loved him and wanted to - whatever the case, it happened and it was a light I never knew until that time in my life.

I agree with PP that opposite of faith is not doubt. Light and dark are one. Your greatest strength is almost always your greatest weakness and vice versa. If you are able to hold these contradictions in balance and accept that everything is as it should be, that is faith not in God or religion or spirituality but in life itself. Christ on the cross said, oh Father why hast thou forsaken me? I have never done Bible study but my understanding is that this is quite a profound statement that people consider. I've personally always been attracted to persons of faith - typically more religious (Catholics) over spiritual - not really sure why because it's not like I have every intention to embrace organized religion. Yet I'm very attracted to those who have it and hope that I can do everything I can to share that gift with my 2 kids. I think faith is the most important thing - more than love and more than hope actually. Faith is the practical leverage a person has for overcoming obstacles. Love can break your heart and hope does end. Faith is the only way you go on. I commend you for thinking about it and wanting it and wish you good luck

By the way, Parabola magazine is a quarterly periodical that devotes issues to themes - I'm sure they have one on faith if you wanted to google

Anonymous wrote:The awful thing is that without any kind of "proof", such as a divine experience or a "there is no other way to explain that" incident happening in your life, it's hard to believe. It's really, really, really hard. And I feel like my faith has been disappointed again and again and again throughout my life.

Sometimes I just want to be an atheist because it would relieve so much worry and doubt in my life.

On the other hand, the spiritual emptiness of atheism scares me.

And I do believe, still after all the disasters that have occurred in my life, that God is real. I don't know why.

Faith is a pain in the ass, but we can't live without it. That's my contribution to this thread.

You mean YOU can't live without it. Many people do and they do not feel spiritually empty.