Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Still do not understand the other woman's motivation. Why contact someone with news that is going to cause enormous problems for someone? Sounds like a jilted lover.

Maybe she thought OP deserved to know?

+1
I would want to know. I hate the people who are trying to turn this into a competition between OP and the other woman- there was no competition; neither knew the other existed. I'm sure that woman was hurt but it doesn't make her sinister and it doesn't mean she shouldn't be believed. What if OP found out about all of this later, after she was pregnant, would that be better? Right now the OP has knowledge and she has a choice and I would be thanking the woman for opening my eyes.
OP, I do hope you will pick one friend or family member to confide in. Someone objective and nonjudgmental that can be a sounding board to you and support you in whatever decision you make. I know it seems impossible right now but you will get through this! Best to you.

+1. As the cheated upon person, I also would want to know. I am now in the position of having stumbled over evidence that my now exDH cheated on his new fiancé. I'm sure she has no idea. Part of me wants to tell her because I would have wanted someone to tell me. Part of me knows that whatever I say will be put off as "jealousy". The latter is definitely not true I feel sorry for her rather than jealous.

In any case, the other woman's motivation doesn't matter, because it turned out that what she told you is true?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

P.S., I strongly disagree with PPs who say that you must learn to "trust" and not ask for full transparency/access on social media, email, etc. Trust is earned, not blindly given. Your husband had your trust, lost it and now must earn it back thru his actions not his words. Full transparency, complete honesty, and a real commitment thru extensive therapy to look inward at the character defects that made this situation possible are the actions you should be looking for.

I'm the PP (or one of them) who suggested that requiring complete access to all email accounts, etc. may not be a good idea. The point was not that trust should be blindly given; it should, and must, b earned, of course. The point is that placing one spouse in a parental role is not healthy for the spouse in either position, and neither addresses nor corrects the underlying issues. From the other things you wrote in your post, and from other posts I think I've seen from you, I think you know at least the latter to be true. I had my husband's credit cards and ATM card, access to all his accounts, etc. for a time in the (ancient) past when those were some of the tools he'd used to act out. It was a tactic suggested by a therapist. It gave both of us a false sense of security that we'd "solved" the problems when nothing happened for a time, but ultimately just further entrenched a very bad relationship dynamic. I agree with full transparency, complete honestly, extensive therapy. I'm simply suggesting that OP putting herself in the role of a parent could be problematic.

In the long run, of course, no one wants to be a parent. That is precisely the reason I ultimately kicked my cheating husband out even though he begged me to stay.

I am absolutely 100% happy that I took control of my situation and continued to look for evidence of my husband's actual behavior. My knowledge of his true activities (as opposed to what he was telling me at home and in therapy) was what gave me the power to control my own life. In my situation, I did not ask for full transparency. I did, however, put a key logger on my computer (which he used), checked all credit card bills and telephone bills and other bills closely (all of which were in joint names or he expected me to see as part of our joint bill paying) and consistently looked at our car mileage to see if he had been where he said he was.

What I found was a continuing series of lies.

I did not want to live a lie. I also did not want to be the sheep that pulled my own wool over my eyes.

The problem is that, without objective data (which is full transparency to all bills, email accounts, etc.), the cheater is able to continue lying.

Demanding transparency is not the same as "being a parent". There is a difference between using what you know as a result of full transparency to make decisions about your own life, and using what you know as a result of transparency to try to force the other person to change. I am speaking of the former use of transparency.

Therapists often tell women they don't have a right to know or to look and that the problem lies with them because they are not willing to trust. Sometimes they even encourage the perpetrator not to reveal details, because "it would just hurt" the victim. I, frankly, find this sexist and offensive.

Anonymous wrote:This thread seems to me to be possibly written by the same person that wrote two other threads about how to tell a woman a man was cheating and how to do it without being know.

I assure you it is not. OP.

Anonymous wrote:Stay in the other bed. It is over. His behavior that will ever change. And since you knew nothing about it until now, he was relying on you never finding out, which also means he entered in to this marriage with fraudulent intent. In fact, he was untruthful to all parties...he is a player. They DO NOT change.

You have every reason to be heartbroken, but he portrayed himself very well as someone he was not. You did nothing wrong. You were a victim. I'm sorry. I agree with previous posters that it is time to reassess your life, your goals, go to a therapist, find out who your close friends are and start over. He is not worth it- it will be a life time of paranoia and something different than what you expected- and deserve. Do this in a business like fashion....no drama. Call him out to his family, his friends for who he really is, but not in a dramatic way. (We are divorcing and here's why- I was looking forward to being a part of your family,but I cannot.I want to start my life over w.ith someone that I trust and have a family. This scenario is not acceptable to me or my future. I want to have kids with a man that I fully trust to be my husband that their father. That will never happen now that I understand some things that I did not when we married)

You will have a great life in the future, and I wish you the best of everything, honey.

I really agree with telling his family in a business like way the real truth about breaking up. One of the worst mistakes I made was not being honest with his family and friends about why we split up. PP advises how to do this in a way that allows you to live in truth while at the same time not drawing people into the drama.

For me it is even worse since we had kids together. His family knows nothing about why we broke up and is totally drawing the wrong conclusions about our situation. It hurts me and the kids.

This thread seems to me to be possibly written by the same person that wrote two other threads about how to tell a woman a man was cheating and how to do it without being know.

The OW is a shit stirrer. This is why you just can't cheat- you can't trust that the affair partner won't blow your world up like this. Not excusing the DH necessarily (though I do think it's wise to consider therapy vs divorce if this really all ended when you moved to the same city and got married) but why did the OW feel the need to unload on OP like this??

Anonymous wrote:Always amazing how scumbag cheaters rationalize their behavior and absolve themselves. Her husband deserves better, but apparently he doesn't feel the same way.

I'm the PP you are referring to. I did not think in any way I was trying to absolve myself. Though my husband has forgiven me, I can never forgive myself. But I don't want to derail this thread. My intention was to highlight that rebuilding can be a long and complicated process but it is possible.

I guess. If someone keeps hitting themselves in the head with a hammer over and over, it's only their problem, right?

Anonymous wrote:Always amazing how scumbag cheaters rationalize their behavior and absolve themselves. Her husband deserves better, but apparently he doesn't feel the same way.

Well, he's the one who's in the marriage, so that is all that matters.

Always amazing how scumbag cheaters rationalize their behavior and absolve themselves. Her husband deserves better, but apparently he doesn't feel the same way.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I guess I do have a major character flaw.

You don't say?

+1 and I'm sure PP's decision to give up cheating had nothing to do with getting older and less desirable and realizing that security and comfort are pretty nice. Sorry, PP.

Anonymous wrote:I guess I do have a major character flaw.

You don't say?

NP here. Sending you lots of sympathy. I hope I can offer a perspective from the other side. When people write things like "once a cheater, always a cheater" or that his behavior indicates a major character flaw, I flinch. The reason is that I have been guilty of cheating in both of my marriages (first husband never knew; second husband knew my whole past and married me anyhow and then I cheated on him, in two different affairs, and he forgave me both times). I guess I do have a major character flaw. And yet I would like to share a few thoughts that might give you some hope that things can be good again... even though of course every relationship has its own reality.

Here are some things that helped my second marriage survive and maybe grow stronger.

* I finally really truly had my wake-up call. I realized more fully than ever before how much I wanted my marriage to work, even with its flaws. I was really truly ready to recommit myself, to put my husband and my marriage first instead of putting myself first.

* After the first few horrible days following my divulging my second affair to my husband - days in which he was determined to end the marriage - he began to get a sense that life could go on and we could heal and that he was willing to invest some time and energy to see if we could save it. He had never thought he could forgive me again. But he did. Forgiveness is a huge thing and it is a process. It didn't erase any pain or anger. He let me know that anger was going to rear its ugly head and I would need to understand and deal with it.

* My husband also let me know that he understood that some people are just not built for monogamy and he was not judging me, but he needed monogamy, and if I needed variety in my life, fine, but I just could not be married to him any longer.

* My husband made the choice to tell no one in his family and none of his friends about my infidelity. Mostly he felt ashamed/humiliated for having been cuckolded, for having taken me back after the first cheating and then I cheated again and he took me back again. He thought it made him look weak. (From my perspective I totally respected his strength and capacity for forgive and work on rebuilding, but I can understand his perspective.) I was infinitely grateful that he did not tell. I also did not tell my family and friends (except one). But it is a hard burden to carry alone and I think you are wise in seeking support online right now and through lining up counseling. (I also got counseling and we did some marriage counseling after the first affair but not the second.)

* In my case, I think I cheated because some needs were not getting fulfilled in my marriage and I did not think they could be solved by discussing them, but that was cowardly and stupid. My husband and I started talking more openly during our rebuilding. He was able to step up and start being more available to me emotionally. (In your case, it seems like the long distance played a big part, though of course that does not excuse any of your husband's poor choices. But it sounds like your relationship itself was fundamentally very strong.)

* I did realize while cheating that I was getting some sort of weird thrill out of leading a double life. We get into routines and it was exciting to have an escape to think about and sometimes act on. And maybe the "getting away with it" was part of the buzz. It is important to take stock of every aspect of the cheating because otherwise it can seduce you back into it again if you don't really understand it and take steps to avoid a recurrence. I had to think about either finding other ways to get weird thrills that didn't sabotage the relationship that matters most in life or make my peace with just never having weird thrills again. I felt like I was still sort of "living with demons" for awhile as we were rebuilding. (Mostly I turned to mental scenarios for awhile but really lost my interest in those too; I really did get to the point where all that mattered to me was having a healthy and trusting relationship with my husband and nothing else beckoned to me any more.)

* It has been quite a few years since my husband forgave me, and I think he largely trusts me, but every now and then he will wonder. He knows how remorseful I am, he knows intellectually that I have pledged myself and my faithfulness to him, but it really is true that once trust is broken, it is nearly impossible to completely restore it. We have had to learn to live with that.

You have said that you feel like the past four years have been a waste and you feel like you are talking to a stranger now. I can totally understand how you would feel that way. In some ways he is a stranger. I know I learned to compartmentalize my life when I was leading a double life. That was how I managed to live with myself. You do know part of your husband very well, but now you are meeting another part of him, and not the part you want to meet. And probably he needs to find a way to better know the part of himself that allowed this mess to start and continue for years. But that does not invalidate everything you thought you two had going for you.

My therapist thought I had done my husband a disservice by telling him about my second affair. I didn't want there to be any secrets any more. But she said that was my cross to bear, and I should not have placed that burden on him. My husband says he would much rather know than have our marriage be built on lies. In your case, the OW thought you would have wanted to know, and you wish you could turn the clock back and not know. There is no easy answer to that. It is terrible to be in the position of carrying a lifelong secret, knowing that you can never tell your loved one how you betrayed them. But he had already moved on from his secret life; it was behind him; now it is your burden too, and your marriage will never be the same. But at least now your marriage will be REAL. Now you are in this thing together. And ultimately I think that is healthier for a marriage than for each partner to have a different inner reality and for one of those realities to be illusory.

But having said all that, I never did tell my husband *everything* because it would just have caused more pain. And I do think it is possible you will never know everything your husband has done in the past. But I don't think that matters now. You know enough.

I do think people can learn and grow from their mistakes. I have to believe that, even though I kept stumbling so many times myself.

As so many have said on this thread, you don't need to and shouldn't make any hasty decisions. Your honeymoon period has been ruined - in the way you had imagined it would be. But now you are entering a new honeymoon period where you have an opportunity to get to know each other and your inner selves more profoundly - muck and all. Wishing you all the best.

To try and determine if your concern about him possibly being a pathological liar is warranted, do you think you need to engage with the OW at all to try and determine how we portrayed his feelings/intentions/plans/limits with her when they were seeing one another? She says she wasn't aware of you but was he allowing her to think that they were exclusive? Did she think she was in a full-fledged relationship with him? I think having a little insight about the lengths he went to to live a double life would help you understand how ingrained this character flaw is. Here's the thing...the guy is now in his 40s. I'm guessing that he does think he's done with all that nonsense...at least for now. If he's in a high pressure career where he is respected, etc. I'm sure getting the cute wife a decade younger than he is is probably the next right step for him in his career/life/life trajectory. And while I'm sure (sorta) that he's sincere in his claims of loving you and wanting this all to work out, dont' kid yourself...he's equally worried about the embarrassment and humiliation that a divorce would mean for him. So his intentions to keep it altogether might not be 100% driven by a desire to keep the love of his life at his side. I hope that's the case, but I'm guessing it's more complicated than that for him too. I'm sorry.

Anonymous wrote:Thanks from OP. It is helpful to read through these messages. I am too ashamed and it is too new for me to talk to anyone in my life right now. I contacted my EAP program to set up an individual counseling session and couples therapy. DH has said he will go to individual counseling as well. My goal is to hang on to the boards and my thoughts for a few days until I can get an appointment.

I keep looking at this from two angles -- #1. He was wrong and indiscreet and did it as a last hurrah before getting married. Now that we are physically in the same city, sharing a home, and now married, and it is all "real," he has left that side behind and is focused on us and our future. Or angle #2. All of #1 plus he is a pathological liar who cannot be trusted.

I honestly feel like I do not know who I married. When we talked last night, I felt like I was talking to a stranger or that I was watching an awful Lifetime movie. I can't believe I put everything on the line for him and gave him my absolute trust, and he has destroyed everything. If I leave, he understands that I am a 100% clean break type of person. He knows if I leave him I will wipe all traces of him from my life and never speak to him again. But I have been here before, coming out of bad breakups with two serious BFs where I cut all ties immediately, and while it was a good high road to take, it took me years to personally recover and open my heart.

Right now I feel like I wasted four years of my life. As wonderful as our best times have been, today I wish I had never met him. It sounds dramatic, but I feel like he has ruined so much. He has ruined what I had thought was a happy past. He has clearly ruined the present, what is supposed to be our honeymoon phase and new life. And he has most likely ruined our future. Moreover, whether this works out with him or not, I feel like his behaviors have impacted my future, individually. Either I stay and always feel worried he is being unfaithful, or I leave and always wonder if it was a mistake to do so. And I worry that his actions might wind up ruining my chances of being a mother. Clearly, we will put baby making on hold. But I'm looking towards the south side of my 30s -- if we put it off and stay together it may never happen for us as we get older. Will I always resent him for that? If I leave and start over, I may never find someone to partner with and parent with. And the resentment and anger would only grow. Either way I just lose.

24 hours ago my world was fantastic and now it is a heap of absolute shit.

I feel bad for you, OP. On a related note, this is why you NEVER tell someone about cheating that is in the past. I feel sorry that OP's world was shattered because of some vindictive OW.

Why does cheating have such a profound reaction? I mean, there is a simple answer to why her husband flirted and cheated: because it made his penis hard, which feels good, and he, like many men (and women) make bad decisions with raging hormones. Why does this have to equal "everything I knew about him was false!" or "he has ruined our future". Isn't the most likely truth that your husband is human, who like virtually all humans, is still attracted to and would have sex with people other than their spouse, and acted on that impulse thinking he wouldn't get caught? I am not trying to excuse his very shitty behavior, but what OP is describing seems very run of the mill, i.e. cheated in the past. Its not like he pulled a John Edwards and had a double life and a kid, etc.

Again, not to excuse cheating, but when you set it up as so that anyone who cheats is an unknowable monster devoid of love and humanity, you really are assuming people are far less fallible than they really are. If he is otherwise a great husband and would make a great father, I would think long and hard about giving him up and potentially giving up the chance to be a mom of an intact family over something in his past that many people do at some point in a long marriage.