Anonymous
Post 12/15/2014 13:00     Subject: Re:Stop blaming women for holding themselves back
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
I'm tired of the whining by people who chose to become parents. Did you think life would stay the same? No one owes you a power career or special accommodations. Decide which one means more to you and spend your time accordingly. No one is forcing you to spread yourself so thin.


Dumbass, if parents were independently wealthy and didn't need to earn money to live and support their kids, I'm sure we'd all choose not to work so hard.

But unlike DINKs, parents need to earn even more money for daycare, preschool, college, etc.

You sound like a typical immature person who lacks empathy and can't understand anything unless it is personally happening to you. You are what is wrong with America. I am happy you're not procreating so hopefully we'll have a few people like you in the future.

Seeing as nearly 90% of the population become parents, I'm tired of the childless thinking they are the only ones who get to advance in the work place. Having children and raising them right is important for our country so the more support parents get,t he better off we all are.


We get to advance in the workplace because we are the ones there doing the actual work for christ sake. Here's what I see: parents, mothers especially, want to be able to get pregnant as often as they like. OK, great, good, I agree, of course they should. But then on top of that they want to be able to maintain their full (or close to full) salaries while on one-two year maternity leave, and then reenter the workforce when they're goddamn good and ready and at the SAME LEVEL they stepped off two years earlier. They come back, maybe the company invests time and money in training them again, and then 10 months later they're pregnant AGAIN and the scenario repeats. I'm sorry but you CAN'T have it all. If you step out of the work force you will be subject to lower earnings and less position than someone who stayed in the game, this is true of anyone who steps out of work, yet parents think it shouldn't pertain to them. What makes you so special? And please save me the blather about raising the next generation. You had kids because you wanted to have kids, not for any social good.


+1. This is true.
Anonymous
Post 12/15/2014 09:29     Subject: Re:Stop blaming women for holding themselves back
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:

You don't want to hear this, BUT -- its also harder when you a mid thirties mom than it is when you are a 20 something professional young woman. Much, much harder. Whereas your male counterparts start to get welcomed into the fold. I am in biglaw and I got all kinds of opportunities when I was young and had great shoes etc. Its an image thing for many of these companies. Also something that has to change. Accept older women.


+1 You need to know that this will happen to you even if you don't have kids, PP. You'll be discriminated against simply because MAYBE you MIGHT have kids and also, since almost everyone higher up is a man, they feel more comfortable promoting the guys. It sucks.


This is so very true. I was in a leadership meeting for my division recently. There were 5 men and 4 women - we're very representative of the company as a whole, if anything women are over-represented in our division leadership compared to the rest of the company.

The 5 men? Between 38 - 46, all making over $250k a year, all have stay-at-home-wife and kids (and I know at least 2 of those wives have advanced degrees) or are single with grown/no kids.

The 4 women? Between 27 - 31, all making under $110k a year, all have no kids.

There is a vast chasm that opens up in your 30's in the career world - even if you don't have kids. The way I have seen women in their 30s get marginalized, when without them having kids or changing anything, is quite stunning. It flies under the radar because each case seems to have a reasonable explanation, but when you look at it holistically - the odds are so much better for men, men have the same life circumstances going on as the women but it doesn't get used as a reason to not promote them or pay them less. It was also bizarre how the conversation around my career/travel changed once I got married, even though I'd been at the company 7+ years and nothing else changed.
Anonymous
Post 12/14/2014 18:47     Subject: Stop blaming women for holding themselves back
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I'm tired of the whining by people who chose to become parents. Did you think life would stay the same? No one owes you a power career or special accommodations. Decide which one means more to you and spend your time accordingly. No one is forcing you to spread yourself so thin.


Dumbass, if parents were independently wealthy and didn't need to earn money to live and support their kids, I'm sure we'd all choose not to work so hard.

But unlike DINKs, parents need to earn even more money for daycare, preschool, college, etc.

You sound like a typical immature person who lacks empathy and can't understand anything unless it is personally happening to you. You are what is wrong with America. I am happy you're not procreating so hopefully we'll have a few people like you in the future.

Seeing as nearly 90% of the population become parents, I'm tired of the childless thinking they are the only ones who get to advance in the work place. Having children and raising them right is important for our country so the more support parents get,t he better off we all are.


We get to advance in the workplace because we are the ones there doing the actual work for christ sake. Here's what I see: parents, mothers especially, want to be able to get pregnant as often as they like. OK, great, good, I agree, of course they should. But then on top of that they want to be able to maintain their full (or close to full) salaries while on one-two year maternity leave, and then reenter the workforce when they're goddamn good and ready and at the SAME LEVEL they stepped off two years earlier. They come back, maybe the company invests time and money in training them again, and then 10 months later they're pregnant AGAIN and the scenario repeats. I'm sorry but you CAN'T have it all. If you step out of the work force you will be subject to lower earnings and less position than someone who stayed in the game, this is true of anyone who steps out of work, yet parents think it shouldn't pertain to them. What makes you so special? And please save me the blather about raising the next generation. You had kids because you wanted to have kids, not for any social good.
Anonymous
Post 12/14/2014 18:40     Subject: Stop blaming women for holding themselves back
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I'm tired of the whining by people who chose to become parents. Did you think life would stay the same? No one owes you a power career or special accommodations. Decide which one means more to you and spend your time accordingly. No one is forcing you to spread yourself so thin.


Dumbass, if parents were independently wealthy and didn't need to earn money to live and support their kids, I'm sure we'd all choose not to work so hard.

But unlike DINKs, parents need to earn even more money for daycare, preschool, college, etc.

You sound like a typical immature person who lacks empathy and can't understand anything unless it is personally happening to you. You are what is wrong with America. I am happy you're not procreating so hopefully we'll have a few people like you in the future.


You basically made this person's point: you need to earn money for all those things because your CHOSE to have children. And the US at this point doesn't need more people to support the workforce and economy, because of immigration we have plenty. I agree completely that work/life balance is important and that we are far to weighted to work in this country but I get of parents acting like their the only ones who matter in the workplace. A lot of people could use fair policies, not just parents. And I'm not picking up your slack at work unless you're willing to pick up mine, even though mine might not involve time off for watching Buford's soccer games.

Anonymous
Post 12/03/2014 22:54     Subject: Re:Stop blaming women for holding themselves back
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:WOHM here, lawyer and sole breadwinner with SAHD spouse who does almost everything around the house. It's a great setup in many ways, but I am still not in the same position as my male colleagues with SAH wives. I might get flamed for this, but kids want their moms in a visceral way that I don't think applies to dads. Even though DH was the primary caregiver and spent more time with DCs when they were little, they wanted Mommy when they were sick, awake at night with nightmares, lonely, etc. They cried and clung to my leg when I had to travel. And so I had to choose between not meeting their needs or getting the stinkeye when I left work on time (or as my a$$hole colleague called it, "early"). Work won for several years and I am trying to rebalance. I don't have a good answer for how to balance the biological realities of pregnancy, BF'ing, etc., with a demanding career.

I don't know. I'm a SAHM and my kids' favorite is their dad because they see him less often. Once you're out of the breastfeeding year(s), that need wanes quite a bit. I think they just want you because they don't get you as much.


Both me and DH WOTH. Our toddler calls for daddy when he wakes up in the night and there is no leg clinging when one of us travels. Maybe this will change with time but I don't think the gender of the parent motivates the kids that much.
Anonymous
Post 12/03/2014 07:56     Subject: Stop blaming women for holding themselves back
My cruelest and most painful experiences in my career usually come from younger professional women who try to move quickly through the ranks by using communication skills and their sexuality more than developing technical or business acumen. I am a woman in my 40s who never had children, and it was not because of my career or my selfishness. There were many other factors. However, because I am a woman with no kids, younger women often treat me with scorn and disdain, as if I am expecting them to be like me. I spent a good part of my 30s caring for my mother who was dying of cancer. There were no accommodations at work for that type of care, either.

Class differences are much more challenging to overcome than gender differences. Men who are first generation college students and professionals had a much more challenging time than women who followed their fathers footsteps into law, medicine, business.
Anonymous
Post 12/03/2014 06:17     Subject: Re:Stop blaming women for holding themselves back
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Frankly, I think the previous posts are missing the point. The system is totally rigged. Even if you lean in until you fall over (which is what I did with two small kids), women will continue to be treated like second class citizens at firms and companies. This is not about work life balance, this is about treating women professionally, recognizing covert biases, and support women's professional growth -- like they do for men.

This is my favorite recent post on this subject:

http://abovethelaw.com/2014/10/stop-treating-women-lawyers-like-crap/


That hasn't been my experience. I have exactly the same pay, status and accomplishments of my male coworkers. The falling behind will happen when I get pregnant and have to stop working 10 hour days (so I can actually see these kids!). In America we're so pro-corporation and fuck the individual. We work our asses off so that a corporation can make $$$ but when we want a family they're pissed off. I don't get overtime or paid for all the extra hours I put in. A little maternity leave and actually sticking to an 8 hour schedule would be nice.


You don't want to hear this, BUT -- its also harder when you a mid thirties mom than it is when you are a 20 something professional young woman. Much, much harder. Whereas your male counterparts start to get welcomed into the fold. I am in biglaw and I got all kinds of opportunities when I was young and had great shoes etc. Its an image thing for many of these companies. Also something that has to change. Accept older women.[/quote]

My cruelest and most painful experiences in my career usually come from younger professional women who try to move quickly through the ranks by using communication skills and their sexuality more than developing technical or business acumen. I am a woman in my 40s who never had children, and it was not because of my career or my selfishness. There were many other factors. However, because I am a woman with no kids, younger women often treat me with scorn and disdain, as if I am expecting them to be like me. I spent a good part of my 30s caring for my mother who was dying of cancer. There were no accommodations at work for that type of care, either.

Class differences are much more challenging to overcome than gender differences. Men who are first generation college students and professionals had a much more challenging time than women who followed their fathers footsteps into law, medicine, business.

Anonymous
Post 12/03/2014 06:11     Subject: Stop blaming women for holding themselves back
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Waaaahhh! God gave me a uterus and it's not fair I can have kids and it puts me back careerwise. Sorry, less empathy here for the "power woman" whining about not being able to "lean in" and more for the Walmart Mom who must subsist on a minimum wage to support her kids.


Walmart woman could have made the same choices I made. No sympathy. Shouldn't have had kids (plural).


Really? Are you sure she had the same opportunities as you? I know, OP, that very many people in this country are in poverty situations through no real fault of their own. I was fortunate That I grew up in an affluent two parent household. My parents paid for private school and college. Everything wasn't handed to me on a plate, but I started on third base. I just finished reading Factory Man, a book about the collapse of the furniture manufacturing industry in the U.S. A and the workers in small Virginia and North Carolina towns who lost their jobs. Was it their own fault that the Chinese were dumping products on the U.S. market below cost? In "The Corner, David Simon's book about one year in the life of an inner city drug market, Simon writes that very many middle class Americans imagine that they cold bootstrap their way out of poverty, when in fact when given the same life circumstances and life set skill of some of our poor they could not.

The social, family and institutional dysfunction is too great. You are in no position to judge OP. You really aren't.

“You put a textbook in front of these kids, put a problem on the blackboard, teach them every problem in some statewide test, it won’t matter. None of it. ‘Cause they’re not learning for our world; they’re learning for theirs. They know exactly what it is they’re training for and what it is everyone expects them to be. It’s not about you or us or the test or the system. It’s what they expect of themselves. Every single one of them know they’re headed back to the corners. Their brothers and sisters, shit, their parents. They came through these same classrooms. We pretended to teach them, they pretended to learn and where’d they end up? Same damn corners."

-- Bunny Colvin, The Wire


I'm the OP. What are you talking about? What am I judging? I simply said, in my original post, that an additional study shows that even correcting for everything, women are still not making it to the top ranks. That tells me there is something going on that is biased against (even childless) women who lean in that prevents them from advancing. I have no idea what this accusation is about.


Sorry, i may have meant PP. The one with The nasty commeNt about Walmart lady.
Anonymous
Post 12/03/2014 00:03     Subject: Stop blaming women for holding themselves back
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I'm with you, OP. And I believe it starts with fair maternity and paternity leave. And changing the culture surrounding taking time to raise your infants.


+1

If I have to hear f-ing "lean in" one more time my head is going to explode.


+1000 as I do the midnight feeding and have to be at office early to deal w all manner of BS. Makes me want to "lean in" ... to an open window on a high floor.
Anonymous
Post 12/02/2014 23:10     Subject: Stop blaming women for holding themselves back
Anonymous wrote:Well, the article is obviously saying it doesn't matter whether you lean in or out, you just aren't likely to get to the top. I think that is definitely true. And I also think a large part of it is attributable to, as said upthread, the corporate culture has little value for middle aged women. Men like to work with young professional women or their peers. In my experience, this makes it harder for young professional men than women until they are about 35 and then it is harder for the women. Much harder. They aren't considered attractive/young and good at their job, a triple threat by goodness! but rather just an old lady. It really is rampant sexism but not the kind that the media or we think is sexy so it goes unremarked upon. Its not being oogled or hit on or passed over because of your sex, its being put out to pasture and ignored. That is really so often the issue.


+1
Anonymous
Post 12/02/2014 21:57     Subject: Re:Stop blaming women for holding themselves back
The problem w/ your late 30s - 40s is that you are no longer zipping up the career ladder like in your 20s so the rewards aren't as immediate. It is just a natural leveling off of a careers. Once again, this happens to both sexes.
Anonymous
Post 12/02/2014 21:46     Subject: Re:Stop blaming women for holding themselves back
Anonymous wrote:WOHM here, lawyer and sole breadwinner with SAHD spouse who does almost everything around the house. It's a great setup in many ways, but I am still not in the same position as my male colleagues with SAH wives. I might get flamed for this, but kids want their moms in a visceral way that I don't think applies to dads. Even though DH was the primary caregiver and spent more time with DCs when they were little, they wanted Mommy when they were sick, awake at night with nightmares, lonely, etc. They cried and clung to my leg when I had to travel. And so I had to choose between not meeting their needs or getting the stinkeye when I left work on time (or as my a$$hole colleague called it, "early"). Work won for several years and I am trying to rebalance. I don't have a good answer for how to balance the biological realities of pregnancy, BF'ing, etc., with a demanding career.

I don't know. I'm a SAHM and my kids' favorite is their dad because they see him less often. Once you're out of the breastfeeding year(s), that need wanes quite a bit. I think they just want you because they don't get you as much.
Anonymous
Post 12/02/2014 20:40     Subject: Stop blaming women for holding themselves back
OP again- the idea of a whole lot of trying without commensurate succeeding. That's bound to bum anyone out and make them wonder about the system, right?
Anonymous
Post 12/02/2014 20:39     Subject: Stop blaming women for holding themselves back
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Waaaahhh! God gave me a uterus and it's not fair I can have kids and it puts me back careerwise. Sorry, less empathy here for the "power woman" whining about not being able to "lean in" and more for the Walmart Mom who must subsist on a minimum wage to support her kids.


Walmart woman could have made the same choices I made. No sympathy. Shouldn't have had kids (plural).


Really? Are you sure she had the same opportunities as you? I know, OP, that very many people in this country are in poverty situations through no real fault of their own. I was fortunate That I grew up in an affluent two parent household. My parents paid for private school and college. Everything wasn't handed to me on a plate, but I started on third base. I just finished reading Factory Man, a book about the collapse of the furniture manufacturing industry in the U.S. A and the workers in small Virginia and North Carolina towns who lost their jobs. Was it their own fault that the Chinese were dumping products on the U.S. market below cost? In "The Corner, David Simon's book about one year in the life of an inner city drug market, Simon writes that very many middle class Americans imagine that they cold bootstrap their way out of poverty, when in fact when given the same life circumstances and life set skill of some of our poor they could not.

The social, family and institutional dysfunction is too great. You are in no position to judge OP. You really aren't.

“You put a textbook in front of these kids, put a problem on the blackboard, teach them every problem in some statewide test, it won’t matter. None of it. ‘Cause they’re not learning for our world; they’re learning for theirs. They know exactly what it is they’re training for and what it is everyone expects them to be. It’s not about you or us or the test or the system. It’s what they expect of themselves. Every single one of them know they’re headed back to the corners. Their brothers and sisters, shit, their parents. They came through these same classrooms. We pretended to teach them, they pretended to learn and where’d they end up? Same damn corners."

-- Bunny Colvin, The Wire


I'm the OP. What are you talking about? What am I judging? I simply said, in my original post, that an additional study shows that even correcting for everything, women are still not making it to the top ranks. That tells me there is something going on that is biased against (even childless) women who lean in that prevents them from advancing. I have no idea what this accusation is about.
Anonymous
Post 12/02/2014 20:35     Subject: Stop blaming women for holding themselves back
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I'm with you, OP. And I believe it starts with fair maternity and paternity leave. And changing the culture surrounding taking time to raise your infants.


This will never happen in a country where the ruling elite wants to treat us like people in China and India.



In India moms get 6 months of paid maternity leave. Yeah, 3rd world country with tons of issues and even they get it right!