I'm an atheist - and I clicked on this link because I'm quite interested in how science might intersect, or have an effect on faith. I think what people experience in faith - in "knowing their God" is a very real thing, and I like questions like the one opposed, because I think there is a diamond buried in religion, the experience of having faith itself, that is a function of the brain. Science hasn't yet been able to explain that - but I hope one day will.

The biggest joke is on these "Christians", and I use quotations simply because nothing about what you are saying sounds particularly Christ-like.

Do you really believe that God, Allah, Jehovah, I Am, Shiva, Universe,...whatever name you call the Loving Source of all that is - is so caught up in your human idea of belief and faith that he would send someone to hell to suffer for eternity simply for not having the kind of faith you have? Do you really believe that the Loving Creative Consciousness of the Universe needs to condemn people to hell in order to make them love/believe in Him/Her/It? Stop and think how completely ridiculous that is.

God is the loving source of all that is. If you believe God is love than you must believe that he created this universe and all that exists in it in complete love and light. That means that it is impossible for God NOT to love. It would go agains the very nature of who He is. Without fail, every major religion at its core is about Love. Love God (whatever you call "God") and love others. That's it.

When you condemn an entire group of people, whether they are Atheists, Muslims, Jews, Wicaa, Spiritualist, whatever.... you are acting in direct opposition to the teachings of your Christ.

I am a Christian. I believe that Christ came to show us how to love. You cannot condemn people to hell and be loving at the same time. Those two things can not exist in the same place. The very fact that you are on a message board telling others they are at risk of eternal damnation separates you completely from the Christ you claim to love.

Anonymous wrote:

God is beyond the ideas and constructs we make in our minds. To even say the words, "why should God be a pushover" or even to say a too forgiving God would be a pushover is incredibly juvenile in thinking. But I've seen this style of thinking in some people in some religions and it's always puzzled me, so it's not just you.

And you know that how? Because some humans constructed it in their minds it as a way of trying to explain why God is so hard to understand. It's humans thinking of ways to get god off the hook for not making much sense in human terms.

Gd is beyond our comprehension, yet is totally dependent on us to get his ideas across - until we're dead -- only then will he talk to us directly, and WATCH OUT if you haven't been good!

This line about the thread not being about the existence of heaven but just its location is like saying that "I have never beaten my wife" is not relevant to the question "When did you stop beating your wife?"

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So sorry we believers can not live up to your intellectual standard.

Is anyone in the religious forum wondering the same thing I am? Why are atheists on our threads that discuss religious questions? Are these threads inviting the atheist perspective if the question is about God or afterlife or Heaven? I would think not. So, why do atheists feel their view here is relevant to the topic??

This is the religion forum, not the believers-in-God-only forum. This forum is for anyone who wants to discuss religion - whatever their views are about it.

She's asking WHY you're here on this particular thread. She phrased it as this particular question several times, in different ways.

It's a question, not a challenge to the fact that you're here.

So perhaps you could answer the question, instead of challenging the fact that somebody would even ask the question.

Anonymous wrote:So sorry we believers can not live up to your intellectual standard.

Is anyone in the religious forum wondering the same thing I am? Why are atheists on our threads that discuss religious questions? Are these threads inviting the atheist perspective if the question is about God or afterlife or Heaven? I would think not. So, why do atheists feel their view here is relevant to the topic??

This is the religion forum, not the believers-in-God-only forum. This forum is for anyone who wants to discuss religion - whatever their views are about it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So sorry we believers can not live up to your intellectual standard.

Is anyone in the religious forum wondering the same thing I am? Why are atheists on our threads that discuss religious questions? Are these threads inviting the atheist perspective if the question is about God or afterlife or Heaven? I would think not. So, why do atheists feel their view here is relevant to the topic??

We are here because we are interested in the questions that are being discussed. Just as the political forum involves both liberals and conservatives, those with all viewpoints want to discuss these issues.

For me, I can give at least two reasons I am interested. First, that we live our lives surrounded by religion, whether we like it or not, and second, that questions that religions purport to answer, like where the universe came from and why we are here, are interesting whether or not you think the answer is God.

I think I can equally well describe myself as an atheist, an agnostic, or a secular Jew. But I have friends and acquaintances who are quite religious, and I want to understand how they see the world. Sometimes it's much easier to get an honest view of sensitive issues in an anonymous forum like this rather than face to face.

Understand that this subject interests you, but in answer to the question "Is dark matter where the seven heavens lie"I am not interested in debating WHETHER there is a heaven. That type of discussion would be in a thread called "Is there a heaven?" This thread invites a discussion about where heaven does lie, and IF its in dark matter.

I think you already know how believers think, particularly if you have believer friends. If you did not know, you should now know at least with respect to content discussed in this thread.

Is there reason to keep posting your opposing view here?

Are you saying this thread is only for people who believe in heaven? If so, perhaps you should have qualified that at the beginning

Anonymous wrote:It is pointless for atheists and believers to see eye to eye. But the real question is, do they need to?

Personally, if I had any question about the existence of an afterlife, I would rather be safe than sorry. Or I would acknowledge that God may exist but we do not have solid scientific proof. I probably would not say " God does not exist."

because otherwise a loving God would send you to hell?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So sorry we believers can not live up to your intellectual standard.

Is anyone in the religious forum wondering the same thing I am? Why are atheists on our threads that discuss religious questions? Are these threads inviting the atheist perspective if the question is about God or afterlife or Heaven? I would think not. So, why do atheists feel their view here is relevant to the topic??

We are here because we are interested in the questions that are being discussed. Just as the political forum involves both liberals and conservatives, those with all viewpoints want to discuss these issues.

For me, I can give at least two reasons I am interested. First, that we live our lives surrounded by religion, whether we like it or not, and second, that questions that religions purport to answer, like where the universe came from and why we are here, are interesting whether or not you think the answer is God.

I think I can equally well describe myself as an atheist, an agnostic, or a secular Jew. But I have friends and acquaintances who are quite religious, and I want to understand how they see the world. Sometimes it's much easier to get an honest view of sensitive issues in an anonymous forum like this rather than face to face.

Understand that this subject interests you, but in answer to the question "Is dark matter where the seven heavens lie"I am not interested in debating WHETHER there is a heaven. That type of discussion would be in a thread called "Is there a heaven?" This thread invites a discussion about where heaven does lie, and IF its in dark matter.

I think you already know how believers think, particularly if you have believer friends. If you did not know, you should now know at least with respect to content discussed in this thread.

Is there reason to keep posting your opposing view here?

Anonymous wrote:So sorry we believers can not live up to your intellectual standard.

Is anyone in the religious forum wondering the same thing I am? Why are atheists on our threads that discuss religious questions? Are these threads inviting the atheist perspective if the question is about God or afterlife or Heaven? I would think not. So, why do atheists feel their view here is relevant to the topic??

I'm not atheist, I have a religion and I'm a believer but you would probably not consider me to be as such since I don't believe in the same as you. I also don't believe atheists are going to get in big trouble by a god that has human like tendencies such as possibly being perceived as a pushover.

Anonymous wrote:So sorry we believers can not live up to your intellectual standard.

Is anyone in the religious forum wondering the same thing I am? Why are atheists on our threads that discuss religious questions? Are these threads inviting the atheist perspective if the question is about God or afterlife or Heaven? I would think not. So, why do atheists feel their view here is relevant to the topic??

We are here because we are interested in the questions that are being discussed. Just as the political forum involves both liberals and conservatives, those with all viewpoints want to discuss these issues.

For me, I can give at least two reasons I am interested. First, that we live our lives surrounded by religion, whether we like it or not, and second, that questions that religions purport to answer, like where the universe came from and why we are here, are interesting whether or not you think the answer is God.

I think I can equally well describe myself as an atheist, an agnostic, or a secular Jew. But I have friends and acquaintances who are quite religious, and I want to understand how they see the world. Sometimes it's much easier to get an honest view of sensitive issues in an anonymous forum like this rather than face to face.

So sorry we believers can not live up to your intellectual standard.

Is anyone in the religious forum wondering the same thing I am? Why are atheists on our threads that discuss religious questions? Are these threads inviting the atheist perspective if the question is about God or afterlife or Heaven? I would think not. So, why do atheists feel their view here is relevant to the topic??

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Well if you are right that there is no God & no Heaven, believers lose nothing. However, if we are right that there IS a God & Heaven, you'd be in big trouble.

If we atheists are right, then all of us win by having the eternal peace of nothingness rather than a boring eternity in Heaven or a frightful eternity in Hell.

Nah. If a person truly believes in God and Heaven, chances are they are not going to Hell. Heaven has never been described by anyone as "boring" and I don't think I have ever heard of "nothingness" equated with peace. Peace is a positive affect and nothingness is the absence of positive or negative. And you didn't answer the question. What if there IS a God and a Heaven?

Not PP, but I can answer.

If there is a God in heaven, and he is the angry hell-creating God that Christian conservatives believe in, then I don't want any part of him or his heaven. I will gladly join the rebellious angels in their war. That guy is a monster.

If there is a God in heaven and he is not the angry hell-creating monster, then he will understand my lack of belief. He will also look to my over-all behavior, not my professed faith. If the merciful God is true, he understands that atheism is a mistake and like other mistakes, he will forgive it.

I don't think it's a mistake, though.

He will forgive if you lacked the ability to reason or did not have access to knowledge of Him. But if its willful defiance or from a place of arrogance, then no, I don't think He will forgive. If you spent time mocking or insulting the intelligence of believers, I don't know that would be forgiven.
And to punish wrongdoing does not make God a monster. Why should God be a pushover? It simply makes God fair. And if you realized your error in denying God, what recourse will you have at that point?

Lol, you speak of God as if he's/she's just some average joe in a judges outfit. "Charlie, you took too many cookies out of the jar, AGAIN. It's simply not fair and you should know better. That's it your damned."

And your notion that a good God must be so forgiving so as to be a pushover may just be wishful thinking to get a quick pardon.

You've missed the point. God is beyond the ideas and constructs we make in our minds. To even say the words, "why should God be a pushover" or even to say a too forgiving God would be a pushover is incredibly juvenile in thinking. But I've seen this style of thinking in some people in some religions and it's always puzzled me, so it's not just you.

It is pointless for atheists and believers to see eye to eye. But the real question is, do they need to?

Personally, if I had any question about the existence of an afterlife, I would rather be safe than sorry. Or I would acknowledge that God may exist but we do not have solid scientific proof. I probably would not say " God does not exist."

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:...
Belief in God or the afterlife is not a fairy tale for people who are afraid of the dark. Its based on the recognition that our universe is so perfect and ordered that it very existence is a miracle of creation. It is a mastery of artistry. Who but a God can create it?

The obvious answer, which any scientist, any atheist, and probably most believers acknowledge, is that we don't know. We may believe one thing or another, but those who mistake the fact that there is a wondrous, unfathomable, order to the universe for proof that the biblical story is true use the word "proof" with a meaning different from the rest of us. That's fine when you speak to others with similar vocabulary, but there si no point talking if our words mean different things

You may not know because you require visual proof or the kind of concrete proof you feel science has not provided. But believers do know. And their belief is not based on hope, but blind trust. The perfect order of the universe is not the reason believers believe, it simply provides evidence of a supreme creator. Near death experiences lend more credence. I am not Christian but do I believe in a God and an afterlife? Yes. Just as dark matter existed but we lacked knowledge of its existence before, God too exists even though the kind of concrete proof some want isnt available for some folks.