Anonymous
08/01/2014 13:03
Subject: Re:Israel disgusts me.
This was the post, which was cached by some web sites before it was removed by the Times. I don't know whether it's OK to post the complete text here, but Jeff will decide how much can be reprinted or excerpted. I don't think the blooger is saying anything that some DCUM posters haven't already asserted (the US and UN should shut up and let Israel be Israel; leveling Gaza entirely should be OK if it sends Hamas a message, etc.). I think it got pulled down because of the use of the "G word."
When Genocide is Permissible
YOCHANAN GORDON
AUGUST 1, 2014, 5:36 PM
Judging by the numbers of casualties on both sides in this almost one-month old war one would be led to the conclusion that Israel has resorted to disproportionate means in fighting a far less- capable enemy. That is as far as what meets the eye. But, it’s now obvious that the US and the UN are completely out of touch with the nature of this foe and are therefore not qualified to dictate or enforce the rules of this war – because when it comes to terror there is much more than meets the eye. I wasn’t aware of this, but it seems that the nature of warfare has undergone a major shift over the years. Where wars were usually waged to defeat the opposing side, today it seems – and judging by the number of foul calls it would indicate – that today’s wars are fought to a draw. I mean,whoever heard of a timeout in war? An NBA Basketball game allows six timeouts for each team during the course of a game, but last I checked this is a war! We are at war with an enemy whose charter calls for the annihilation of our people. Nothing, then, can be considered disproportionate when we are fighting for our very right to live. The sad reality is that Israel gets it, but its hands are being tied by world leaders who over the past six years have insisted they are such good friends with the Jewish state, that they know more regarding its interests than even they do. But there’s going to have to come a time where Israel feels threatened enough where it has no other choice but to defy international warnings – because this is life or death. Most of the reports coming from Gazan officials and leaders since the start of this operation have been either largely exaggerated or patently false. The truth is, it’s not their fault, falsehood and deceit is part of the very fabric of who they are and that will never change. Still however, despite their propensity to lie, when your enemy tells you that they are bent on your destruction you believe them. Similarly, when Khaled Meshal declares that no physical damage to Gaza will dampen their morale or weaken their resolve – they have to be believed. Our sage Gedalia the son of Achikamwas given intelligence that Yishmael Ben Nesanyah was plotting to kill him. However, in his piety or rather naiveté Gedalia dismissed the report as a random act of gossip and paid no attention to it. To this day, the day following Rosh Hashana is commemorated as a fast day in the memory of Gedalia who was killed in cold blood on the second day of Rosh Hashana during the meal. They say the definition of insanity is repeating the same mistakes over and over. History is there to teach us lessons and the lesson here is that when your enemy swears to destroy you – you take him seriously.Hamas has stated forthrightly that it idealizes death as much as Israel celebrates life. What other way then is there to deal with an enemy of this nature other than obliterate them completely?
News anchors such as those from CNN, BBC and Al-Jazeera have not missed an opportunity to point out the majority of innocent civilians who have lost their lives as a result of this war. But anyone who lives with rocket launchers installed or terror tunnels burrowed in or around the vicinity of their home cannot be considered an innocent civilian. If you’ll counter, that Hamas has been seen abusing civilians who have attempted to leave their homes in response to Israeli warnings to leave – well then, your beginning to come to terms with the nature of this enemy which should automatically cause the rules of standard warfare to be suspended.Everyone agrees that Israel has the right to defend itself as well as the right to exercise that right.Secretary General Ban Ki Moon has declared it, Obama and Kerry have clearly stated that no one could be expected to sit idle as thousands of rockets rain down on the heads of its citizens,placing them in clear and present danger. It seems then that the only point of contention is regarding the measure of punishment meted out in this situation.I will conclude with a question for all the humanitarians out there. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu clearly stated at the outset of this incursion that his objective is to restore a sustainable quiet for the citizens of Israel. We have already established that it is the responsibility of every government to ensure the safety and security of its people. If political leaders and military experts determine that the only way to achieve its goal of sustaining quiet is through genocide is it then permissible to achieve those responsible goals?
When Genocide is Permissible
YOCHANAN GORDON
AUGUST 1, 2014, 5:36 PM
Judging by the numbers of casualties on both sides in this almost one-month old war one would be led to the conclusion that Israel has resorted to disproportionate means in fighting a far less- capable enemy. That is as far as what meets the eye. But, it’s now obvious that the US and the UN are completely out of touch with the nature of this foe and are therefore not qualified to dictate or enforce the rules of this war – because when it comes to terror there is much more than meets the eye. I wasn’t aware of this, but it seems that the nature of warfare has undergone a major shift over the years. Where wars were usually waged to defeat the opposing side, today it seems – and judging by the number of foul calls it would indicate – that today’s wars are fought to a draw. I mean,whoever heard of a timeout in war? An NBA Basketball game allows six timeouts for each team during the course of a game, but last I checked this is a war! We are at war with an enemy whose charter calls for the annihilation of our people. Nothing, then, can be considered disproportionate when we are fighting for our very right to live. The sad reality is that Israel gets it, but its hands are being tied by world leaders who over the past six years have insisted they are such good friends with the Jewish state, that they know more regarding its interests than even they do. But there’s going to have to come a time where Israel feels threatened enough where it has no other choice but to defy international warnings – because this is life or death. Most of the reports coming from Gazan officials and leaders since the start of this operation have been either largely exaggerated or patently false. The truth is, it’s not their fault, falsehood and deceit is part of the very fabric of who they are and that will never change. Still however, despite their propensity to lie, when your enemy tells you that they are bent on your destruction you believe them. Similarly, when Khaled Meshal declares that no physical damage to Gaza will dampen their morale or weaken their resolve – they have to be believed. Our sage Gedalia the son of Achikamwas given intelligence that Yishmael Ben Nesanyah was plotting to kill him. However, in his piety or rather naiveté Gedalia dismissed the report as a random act of gossip and paid no attention to it. To this day, the day following Rosh Hashana is commemorated as a fast day in the memory of Gedalia who was killed in cold blood on the second day of Rosh Hashana during the meal. They say the definition of insanity is repeating the same mistakes over and over. History is there to teach us lessons and the lesson here is that when your enemy swears to destroy you – you take him seriously.Hamas has stated forthrightly that it idealizes death as much as Israel celebrates life. What other way then is there to deal with an enemy of this nature other than obliterate them completely?
News anchors such as those from CNN, BBC and Al-Jazeera have not missed an opportunity to point out the majority of innocent civilians who have lost their lives as a result of this war. But anyone who lives with rocket launchers installed or terror tunnels burrowed in or around the vicinity of their home cannot be considered an innocent civilian. If you’ll counter, that Hamas has been seen abusing civilians who have attempted to leave their homes in response to Israeli warnings to leave – well then, your beginning to come to terms with the nature of this enemy which should automatically cause the rules of standard warfare to be suspended.Everyone agrees that Israel has the right to defend itself as well as the right to exercise that right.Secretary General Ban Ki Moon has declared it, Obama and Kerry have clearly stated that no one could be expected to sit idle as thousands of rockets rain down on the heads of its citizens,placing them in clear and present danger. It seems then that the only point of contention is regarding the measure of punishment meted out in this situation.I will conclude with a question for all the humanitarians out there. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu clearly stated at the outset of this incursion that his objective is to restore a sustainable quiet for the citizens of Israel. We have already established that it is the responsibility of every government to ensure the safety and security of its people. If political leaders and military experts determine that the only way to achieve its goal of sustaining quiet is through genocide is it then permissible to achieve those responsible goals?
Muslima
08/01/2014 13:02
Subject: Israel disgusts me.
The death toll of the 25-day old war is over 1,450 Palestinians, mainly civilians, and 61 Israelis, mainly soldiers. But Gordon claims that the Gazan residents cannot be considered civilians because they live "with rocket launchers installed or terror tunnels burrowed in or around the vicinity of their home".
The article, though deleted can be read here :
https://archive.today/RPf3M
The article, though deleted can be read here :
https://archive.today/RPf3M
Anonymous
08/01/2014 13:02
Subject: Re:Israel disgusts me.
jsteele wrote:Anonymous wrote:
There are bad Israelis. There are bad Palestinians....there are even bad Americans. One person with an opinion does not mean that all of the Israelis agree. Most do not. The Israelis I know are all moral people. They will fight for their country (mostly), but do not want to harm people. Some of these people are my cousins. I know them quite well. The child of one cousin is directly involved in the war. These kids are no different than american soldiers....except they are fighting 50 miles from home, not 10000 miles....
I think there are many people on both sides of the conflict who are reasonable. But, there are many on each side who are extreme. The extremists on the Palestinian side tend to get most of the attention while the extremists on the Israeli side are always brushed off as marginal players. I think it is very apparent that the extremists in Israel are far from marginal and, in fact, were it not for their strength, the current conflict would not be as brutal. I believe that Americans need to come to the realization that while there are many Israelis who share their values and are worthy of our close relationship, there are many who are not. Those who are not shouldn't be given one hundred percent support.
Jeff, I am the pp from the immediately preceding post. I couldn't agree more with this.
jsteele
08/01/2014 13:00
Subject: Re:Israel disgusts me.
Anonymous wrote:
There are bad Israelis. There are bad Palestinians....there are even bad Americans. One person with an opinion does not mean that all of the Israelis agree. Most do not. The Israelis I know are all moral people. They will fight for their country (mostly), but do not want to harm people. Some of these people are my cousins. I know them quite well. The child of one cousin is directly involved in the war. These kids are no different than american soldiers....except they are fighting 50 miles from home, not 10000 miles....
I think there are many people on both sides of the conflict who are reasonable. But, there are many on each side who are extreme. The extremists on the Palestinian side tend to get most of the attention while the extremists on the Israeli side are always brushed off as marginal players. I think it is very apparent that the extremists in Israel are far from marginal and, in fact, were it not for their strength, the current conflict would not be as brutal. I believe that Americans need to come to the realization that while there are many Israelis who share their values and are worthy of our close relationship, there are many who are not. Those who are not shouldn't be given one hundred percent support.
Anonymous
08/01/2014 12:55
Subject: Re:Israel disgusts me.
jsteele wrote:Anonymous wrote:Without being able to read the article, posting that is purely inflammatory. It serves more other purpose. I hope you realize that.
Oh, so I'm the one who is wrong? The guy who wrote an article that was apparently so extreme that it had to be removed is just misunderstood.
Yes, you are. Because you are making assumptions about highly inflammatory issues. You're the one who constantly preaches checking sources and doing your research and yet you post a headline without providing any context. Kind of like just posting a link. Tell me, honestly, what was your rationale for the post? Was it a substantive contribution to the dialogue or simply a case of hey look what they've done now. This kind of naive posting is what incites others to engage in more nefarious dialogue that you yourself have criticized, so shame on you for your hypocrisy.
Anonymous
08/01/2014 12:53
Subject: Re:Israel disgusts me.
Anonymous wrote:jsteele wrote:The Times of Israel published an Op-Ed on it's website with the headline, "When Genocide is Permissible":
The article was subsequently removed. But, can you imagine the uproar if a Palestinian had written such a thing on a respected news website?
Without being able to read the article, posting that is purely inflammatory. It serves more other purpose. I hope you realize that.
There are bad Israelis. There are bad Palestinians....there are even bad Americans. One person with an opinion does not mean that all of the Israelis agree. Most do not. The Israelis I know are all moral people. They will fight for their country (mostly), but do not want to harm people. Some of these people are my cousins. I know them quite well. The child of one cousin is directly involved in the war. These kids are no different than american soldiers....except they are fighting 50 miles from home, not 10000 miles....
jsteele
08/01/2014 12:50
Subject: Re:Israel disgusts me.
Anonymous wrote:Without being able to read the article, posting that is purely inflammatory. It serves more other purpose. I hope you realize that.
Oh, so I'm the one who is wrong? The guy who wrote an article that was apparently so extreme that it had to be removed is just misunderstood.
Anonymous
08/01/2014 12:50
Subject: Re:Israel disgusts me.
jsteele wrote:The Times of Israel published an Op-Ed on it's website with the headline, "When Genocide is Permissible":
The article was subsequently removed. But, can you imagine the uproar if a Palestinian had written such a thing on a respected news website?
This is horrifying.
Anonymous
08/01/2014 12:48
Subject: Re:Israel disgusts me.
jsteele wrote:The Times of Israel published an Op-Ed on it's website with the headline, "When Genocide is Permissible":
The article was subsequently removed. But, can you imagine the uproar if a Palestinian had written such a thing on a respected news website?
Without being able to read the article, posting that is purely inflammatory. It serves more other purpose. I hope you realize that.
Anonymous
08/01/2014 12:45
Subject: Re:Israel disgusts me.
The briefing in this week's Economist on how Israel is sowing the seeds of its own dissolution is mandatory reading for anyone who is thinking about the long game here.
Some key points: the US remains pro-Israel in terms of public opinion, but there is a pronounced difference in opinion depending on your age. If you're under 50, and especially if you're under 30, you're more likely to believe that Israel's conduct in the current conflict is unjustified than justified. Israel can probably treat the US as its rich daddy for another administration or two, because the Republicans will cater to the religious right that believes a Jewish state is critical to the Second Coming, and Hillary Clinton has a classic "Baby Boomer" take on Israel (she's probably still wishing she spent a summer off from Wellesley on a kibbutz getting a nice tan). But, after that, attitudes will change very quickly, and the US will align itself with other countries that are already boycotting Israel.
Second, despite the deep Jewish interest in social justice, Israel today is increasingly shaped by secular, far-right immigrants who admire Putin-like leaders who will stroke fears and encourage paranoia, more than those who would seek agreement and compromise with Palestinians. So, as bad as things are now, they could get far worse in terms of Israel's behavior.
Not a pretty picture if you're an Israeli who wants a decent future for everyone in the region.
Some key points: the US remains pro-Israel in terms of public opinion, but there is a pronounced difference in opinion depending on your age. If you're under 50, and especially if you're under 30, you're more likely to believe that Israel's conduct in the current conflict is unjustified than justified. Israel can probably treat the US as its rich daddy for another administration or two, because the Republicans will cater to the religious right that believes a Jewish state is critical to the Second Coming, and Hillary Clinton has a classic "Baby Boomer" take on Israel (she's probably still wishing she spent a summer off from Wellesley on a kibbutz getting a nice tan). But, after that, attitudes will change very quickly, and the US will align itself with other countries that are already boycotting Israel.
Second, despite the deep Jewish interest in social justice, Israel today is increasingly shaped by secular, far-right immigrants who admire Putin-like leaders who will stroke fears and encourage paranoia, more than those who would seek agreement and compromise with Palestinians. So, as bad as things are now, they could get far worse in terms of Israel's behavior.
Not a pretty picture if you're an Israeli who wants a decent future for everyone in the region.
jsteele
08/01/2014 12:26
Subject: Re:Israel disgusts me.
The Times of Israel published an Op-Ed on it's website with the headline, "When Genocide is Permissible":
The article was subsequently removed. But, can you imagine the uproar if a Palestinian had written such a thing on a respected news website?
The article was subsequently removed. But, can you imagine the uproar if a Palestinian had written such a thing on a respected news website?
Anonymous
07/31/2014 22:52
Subject: Israel disgusts me.
Anonymous wrote:Ben Shapiro takes apart the Israeli killing civilians argument:
http://www.truthrevolt.org/commentary/shapiro-lie-israel-targets-civilians
Just another juvenile mouth-frother who thinks all criticism of Israel MUST be anti-Semitic.
Anonymous
07/31/2014 22:11
Subject: Israel disgusts me.
Anonymous wrote:Ben Shapiro takes apart the Israeli killing civilians argument:
http://www.truthrevolt.org/commentary/shapiro-lie-israel-targets-civilians
He really doesn't. That piece would make a debate professor's skin crawl.
Anonymous
07/31/2014 21:47
Subject: Israel disgusts me.
Ben Shapiro takes apart the Israeli killing civilians argument:
http://www.truthrevolt.org/commentary/shapiro-lie-israel-targets-civilians
http://www.truthrevolt.org/commentary/shapiro-lie-israel-targets-civilians
Anonymous
07/31/2014 19:27
Subject: Israel disgusts me.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Israel is going to pay the ultimate price. It has not even begun to hit the fan for them yet. The damage they are doing to themselves and "their people" sadly is now irreversible in the eyes of the world. The loathing has been taken to a new height.
I am so NOT a fan of Israel. But I'm worried you are right. Anti-Semitic acts have skyrocketed in Europe.
Judging from some of the resolutions in the US Congress in support of giving Israel more weapons of destruction, anti-child acts have skyrocketed in the United States. Quite frankly, the latter worries me more right now.
My understanding is that the funding for Israel is about increasing and improving their Iron Dome. Would you be happier if they did not have this and if Israeli deaths were equivalent to Palestinian deaths?
NO but i would be happier if the US would mind its own affairs of which there are too many to name or possibly to attend to other world affairs that need our help and dollars as much if not more than Israel!!!! We all know the ONLY reaon they are doing this is because Russia is supplying Iran who supplies Palestine and you would have to be living under a rock right now to not know the dynamics between the US and Russia right now.