Anonymous wrote:I'm late to this discussion and was a philosophy major myself. Recently found, to my surprise, that at least 3 other parents in my child's class (well-known DC private school) were also philosophy majors. We have become 2 very well-paid lawyers, one professor and think tank person (in a field other than philosophy), and one who works in international finance. We all seem to have done pretty well for ourselves and yes, we enjoy chatting about Kant and Derrida.

Will I encourage my child to study philosophy? Sure, but in conjunction with something that's either more directly marketable or that at least gives him/her a bit of an employment hook, e.g., another language. FWIW, my spouse was also a liberal arts major and picked up programming independently; is now a high level tech writer. Of the STEM areas, computer programming is quite easy for a very motivated person to pick up on his/her own. (I make no similar claim about bench science or higher level mathematics.) My personal opinion is that there's no need to start down a vocational track at age 17/18 as long as you are smart, creative, ambitious.

+1

I double-majored in Philosophy and Spanish Literature. For years I worked for an international company, using both languages. Then I went to law school and now I practice international commercial law.

I did super-well on the LSATs. It was just a series of Logic problems.

I still use problem-solving approaches I learned in Logic class in my work.

Anonymous wrote:Here's a few philosophy majors who did okay:

Thomas Jefferson
Martin Luther King, Jr.
Jay Leno
Ken Follett
Mary Higgins Clark
Umberto Eco
Rahm Emmanuel
William Bennett
James Michener
Phil Jackson
Woody Allen
Harrison Ford
Alec Trebeck
Carl Icahn
David Souter

Valerie Tripp, the American Girl creator/author, is also on that list.

I'm late to this discussion and was a philosophy major myself. Recently found, to my surprise, that at least 3 other parents in my child's class (well-known DC private school) were also philosophy majors. We have become 2 very well-paid lawyers, one professor and think tank person (in a field other than philosophy), and one who works in international finance. We all seem to have done pretty well for ourselves and yes, we enjoy chatting about Kant and Derrida.

Will I encourage my child to study philosophy? Sure, but in conjunction with something that's either more directly marketable or that at least gives him/her a bit of an employment hook, e.g., another language. FWIW, my spouse was also a liberal arts major and picked up programming independently; is now a high level tech writer. Of the STEM areas, computer programming is quite easy for a very motivated person to pick up on his/her own. (I make no similar claim about bench science or higher level mathematics.) My personal opinion is that there's no need to start down a vocational track at age 17/18 as long as you are smart, creative, ambitious.

Anonymous wrote:A good philosophy grad would seem well suited for any number of entry level knowledge work jobs. I can't see why philosophy would be any worse than any other liberal arts major, or majors like sociology etc.

I agree. The study of philosophy prepares a person much better for a job which entails writing and analysis than does,e.g. the study of sociology, religion, or history.

Anonymous wrote:from article:

Searching for the meaning of life as a philosophy or religious studies major is a noble endeavor, but unfortunately, it's not super exciting to employers.

"In my opinion, these degrees are not at all marketable," says Lynn. "I don't even know what people do with these degrees to be honest. Unless they're willing to go all the way to a PhD in philosophy, for instance, their career paths are zero."

And while she does respect these studies, she advises students to at least minor in something such as business or economics.

As for the verdict from the "Hard Times" report? Not too inspiring. Philosophy and religious studies recent grads had a 10.8 percent unemployment rate.

What do you think?

I think anyone who says that majoring in philosophy entails searching for the meaning of life is not familiar with the rigorous work that the major entails.

A religion major is a different major, with a different focus. Conflating the two only underscores the degree of the author's misunderstanding of these majors.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A good philosophy grad would seem well suited for any number of entry level knowledge work jobs. I can't see why philosophy would be any worse than any other liberal arts major, or majors like sociology etc.

I majored in Sociology and it's pretty worthless too. I can really breakdown the social groups at a party though! When my kids are college age I hope they go for something more practical, maybe even a 'trade' type school. My husband got a degree in computer programming and engineering. Now, that was useful.

The people I know who make the most money in computer programming actually don't have computer programming degrees. The reality is that they were always interested in programming, learned a lot on their own, and worked up from entry level jobs. One person I know who does have a computer programming degree said the coursework was useless. Most of it was outdated. What actually landed him a job was his knowledge and skill set that he developed outside of the classroom and through computer programming online communities.

My point is that if you aren't already into computer programming, then going to school to study it isn't necessarily going to work out well. And if you are into computer programming, you don't necessarily need a degree specifically in that to make a career out of it.

There is a shortage of Computer Science graduates, so it is a hot major to obtain right now, if you want to be highly employable. And no, you don't have to have a degree to be a decent programmer, but most people can't teach themselves how to program effectively.

Most people I know who have CS or MIS degrees started their careers as programmers and moved up to a management level after 10 years or so. Many are now VP's or Directors.

I am glad you pointed this out. The liberal arts advocates are so enamored with their own spin that they are clouding the reality of what is happening.

My brother did an associates degree from NOVA in certain facets of IT with no prior background. He is making well over $100K and he does not even have a bachelors degree in CS. He told me there is no one in his department consisting of over 20 people who make less than $100K and several make $200K and above - and I am not talking VP level positions.

As far as written skills when it comes to English, there are STEM undergraduates who write very well. It does not take a liberal arts degree to be able to write well. Also, critical thinking is not the exclusive purview of those who hold a liberal arts degree.

About the only thing I will agree with the detractors of STEM degrees is that if one is totally lacking in any talent when it comes to those subjects it would then be a disservice to encourage them to pursue that line of study. But one does not need to be particularly gifted in the area to pursue a degree in one of the STEM fields.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A good philosophy grad would seem well suited for any number of entry level knowledge work jobs. I can't see why philosophy would be any worse than any other liberal arts major, or majors like sociology etc.

I majored in Sociology and it's pretty worthless too. I can really breakdown the social groups at a party though! When my kids are college age I hope they go for something more practical, maybe even a 'trade' type school. My husband got a degree in computer programming and engineering. Now, that was useful.

The people I know who make the most money in computer programming actually don't have computer programming degrees. The reality is that they were always interested in programming, learned a lot on their own, and worked up from entry level jobs. One person I know who does have a computer programming degree said the coursework was useless. Most of it was outdated. What actually landed him a job was his knowledge and skill set that he developed outside of the classroom and through computer programming online communities.

My point is that if you aren't already into computer programming, then going to school to study it isn't necessarily going to work out well. And if you are into computer programming, you don't necessarily need a degree specifically in that to make a career out of it.

There is a shortage of Computer Science graduates, so it is a hot major to obtain right now, if you want to be highly employable. And no, you don't have to have a degree to be a decent programmer, but most people can't teach themselves how to program effectively.

Most people I know who have CS or MIS degrees started their careers as programmers and moved up to a management level after 10 years or so. Many are now VP's or Directors.

I was going to say the same but my info is 30 years old. The easiest major to get into Harvard Law was Religious Studies because they had only one applicant. Then maybe philosophy. But I would not advise anyone to go to law school today. So I'm aiming my kids towards engineering/ computer science/tech fields/robotics where there are jobs (and yes they still have to study philosophy, history, language and all that other stuff in order to get the B.A.


I don't understand this idea of aiming your child toward a particular major. At what point do you let them run their own lives?


+10000

What if your children have an aptitude for something else completely outside engineering & tech? What if their strengths lie in verbal skills, in writing or speaking, and they would make good grant writers, or do well at an advertising agency, or would have a fulfilling career being excellent teacher who makes a huge difference in kids' lives? Maybe they have an entrepreneurial spirit and would do well starting up their own business. Don't box your children in.


We have tens of thousands of children who were urged to study what really interested them and today they have a college degree, a mountain load of debt and can't find a job that pays them enough to maintain a half-way decent standard of living.

PP, you are doing the right thing in steering your children into fields of study where there will be a demand for their skills down the line. They will thank you for it down the line.

Eh, I have seen many kids pushed into things like engineering, tech, various science fields, computer science, and pre-med. Honestly, if you don't excel in those fields, you are worse off than excelling in a liberal arts field in many cases. Engineering courses are graded on a tough curve, and a lot of firms won't hire anyone with less than a 3.5. So you have to be in the top 10% of your class to get a great entry level job (and this is after a hazing process of weeding out non-serious kids freshman year). One of my good friends studied aerospace engineering (one of the majors with the highest entry level wages) and got a 3.2 or 3.3 at a top 10 engineering program. It took him well over a year of constant applying to find a job at a consulting firm that is related to his background, but not at all doing design work that he was trained to do. Places like google, facebook, and apple can be great places to work, but don't let the high wages, no suits, free food, etc. fool you--it is every bit as cutthroat and demanding as being a big law associate. Those kids put in long hours and hustle--silicon valley is not a place for life balance. And you have to be the cream of the crop to get those jobs. Pre-med, if you don't have the grades and MCAT score, you're not getting into med school. These can be great paths for kids who have the aptitude and interest, but I also see a lot of people working in crappy IT jobs that will never break 50K, jobs that are outsourced to China, and companies decrying a STEM shortage when what they really mean is they want top talent.

What I see across fields in law, finance, business, and tech is that the job market across the board is becoming more and more win or take all with a few talented people on the top raking in tons of money and everyone else with a college degree hovering around 30-60K wages. Which certainly beats minimum wage, or being unemployed, so hey. Sadly, it even helps with being a secretary, in sales, in retail, or getting a job at a trendy cafe to have a college degree these days. The issue is not one of marketable skills, it appears to be one of very little space in the demographic that DCUMers want their kids to end up in.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What does one do with a degree in philosophy? Think for a living?

Law school. It's one of the best pre-law majors.

And thinking for a living is not such a bad thing. We could use more of it in our world then maybe things wouldn't be so effed up.

I was going to say the same but my info is 30 years old. The easiest major to get into Harvard Law was Religious Studies because they had only one applicant. Then maybe philosophy. But I would not advise anyone to go to law school today. So I'm aiming my kids towards engineering/ computer science/tech fields/robotics where there are jobs (and yes they still have to study philosophy, history, language and all that other stuff in order to get the B.A.

I don't understand this idea of aiming your child toward a particular major. At what point do you let them run their own lives?

+10000

What if your children have an aptitude for something else completely outside engineering & tech? What if their strengths lie in verbal skills, in writing or speaking, and they would make good grant writers, or do well at an advertising agency, or would have a fulfilling career being excellent teacher who makes a huge difference in kids' lives? Maybe they have an entrepreneurial spirit and would do well starting up their own business. Don't box your children in.

We have tens of thousands of children who were urged to study what really interested them and today they have a college degree, a mountain load of debt and can't find a job that pays them enough to maintain a half-way decent standard of living.

PP, you are doing the right thing in steering your children into fields of study where there will be a demand for their skills down the line. They will thank you for it down the line.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What does one do with a degree in philosophy? Think for a living?

Law school. It's one of the best pre-law majors.

And thinking for a living is not such a bad thing. We could use more of it in our world then maybe things wouldn't be so effed up.

I was going to say the same but my info is 30 years old. The easiest major to get into Harvard Law was Religious Studies because they had only one applicant. Then maybe philosophy. But I would not advise anyone to go to law school today. So I'm aiming my kids towards engineering/ computer science/tech fields/robotics where there are jobs (and yes they still have to study philosophy, history, language and all that other stuff in order to get the B.A.

I don't understand this idea of aiming your child toward a particular major. At what point do you let them run their own lives?

+10000

What if your children have an aptitude for something else completely outside engineering & tech? What if their strengths lie in verbal skills, in writing or speaking, and they would make good grant writers, or do well at an advertising agency, or would have a fulfilling career being excellent teacher who makes a huge difference in kids' lives? Maybe they have an entrepreneurial spirit and would do well starting up their own business. Don't box your children in.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What does one do with a degree in philosophy? Think for a living?

Law school. It's one of the best pre-law majors.

And thinking for a living is not such a bad thing. We could use more of it in our world then maybe things wouldn't be so effed up.

I was going to say the same but my info is 30 years old. The easiest major to get into Harvard Law was Religious Studies because they had only one applicant. Then maybe philosophy. But I would not advise anyone to go to law school today. So I'm aiming my kids towards engineering/ computer science/tech fields/robotics where there are jobs (and yes they still have to study philosophy, history, language and all that other stuff in order to get the B.A.

I don't understand this idea of aiming your child toward a particular major. At what point do you let them run their own lives?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What does one do with a degree in philosophy? Think for a living?

Law school. It's one of the best pre-law majors.

And thinking for a living is not such a bad thing. We could use more of it in our world then maybe things wouldn't be so effed up.

I was going to say the same but my info is 30 years old. The easiest major to get into Harvard Law was Religious Studies because they had only one applicant. Then maybe philosophy. But I would not advise anyone to go to law school today. So I'm aiming my kids towards engineering/ computer science/tech fields/robotics where there are jobs (and yes they still have to study philosophy, history, language and all that other stuff in order to get the B.A.

Anonymous wrote:

Frankly, those who insist on what worked in years gone by risk being dinosaurs in the current job market. Things are changing so fast in different fields that those who want to remain employable in today's job market need to be constantly aware of the changes and how things are evolving. Today's economy is far too dynamic to assume that something that worked a few years ago will remain viable.

The greatest disservice one can do to someone headed to college is to encourage them to follow their passion without considering whether the resultant degree will help them find a job. Blame greedy corporations, reliance on outsourcing, cheap labor from India & China, to your hearts content, but it does not change the reality of what is happening today. What is happening to many white collar jobs today is what happened to factory jobs three decades ago. One must adapt or cease to be of value to many employers.

This is an argument for not doing any particular vocational training in college, but rather getting a rigorous education that teaches you how to write, think critically, be mentally flexible, solve problems, and evaluate information. Which can happen in a physics program or a philosophy program. If the job market is changing so rapidly, then choosing a vocational skill in college would be silly, because by the time you enter the job market, that vocation may or may not be around.

Exactly. The paragraphs above are a case for a liberal arts education. In a changing world, thinking and writing skills are what you need.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here's a few philosophy majors who did okay:

Thomas Jefferson
Martin Luther King, Jr.
Jay Leno
Ken Follett
Mary Higgins Clark
Umberto Eco
Rahm Emmanuel
William Bennett
James Michener
Phil Jackson
Woody Allen
Harrison Ford
Alec Trebeck
Carl Icahn
David Souter

Just a little exposure to statistics would help you see how stupid your argument is.

Btw, wasn't. Hitler a painter?

He was a 3rd rate artist who got rejected by the Vienna Academy of Fine Arts.

Not sure how that fits into this argument.

A good education in the humanities/liberal arts should leave a student with important critical thinking & writing skills -- skills that translate into many jobs and that are lacking in many of the job candidates I've interviewed over the years.

Anonymous wrote:Anyone here think they might die of boredom at a STEM job? Ever seen what scientists really do all day? mathematicians?

I have a graduate degree in Computer Science and LOVE my job, LOVE my field. Gladly read STEM books on the weekend too, for fun (physics, astronomy, etc).

Different strokes!