Anonymous
Post 01/08/2014 11:36     Subject: Re:Religious families-Do your children easily love God?
I don't understand why posters who don't agree with organized religion feel the need to post and demonize those who do.

Are you trying to enlighten those of us who have a different approach to raising our children? Do you even have children? Why did you stop at the religion forum to make your stand in defense of the children? Why not find a food forum where you can tell people they are depriving their kids by not giving them gluten or how they should let children make their own dietary decisions.

I'm being a bit facetious but am also asking honestly.

Why is it so important to say something that is not only unproductive but, at times, mean-spirited? There are those who are genuinely offering thought-provoking positions and I appreciate your maturity, but some others ...

And I find it interesting that those who are self-proclaimed agnostic or atheist -- the ones who are often humanist by default -- are some here who are most belligerent to other people. Why is that? Aren't you supposed to put your faith in your fellow humans.
Anonymous
Post 01/08/2014 11:35     Subject: Religious families-Do your children easily love God?
I am 10:01 and 10:07 and see both posters as indoctrinating their children, though one is much more mild than the other.

In fact, one is so mild that it almost doesn't seem like indoctrination, except for this one line: "Showing your kids that faith, and Gods love are all you really need in this world."

Your kids may find, as many good people have, that having a particular religious faith and believing in a God who provides love are totally unneccesary to their well-being.
Anonymous
Post 01/08/2014 11:17     Subject: Re:Religious families-Do your children easily love God?
I go to an Episcopal church and my DC is involved there too. As a family we discuss many different religions and paths, as well as the need to find one's own way. This happens to be my path but it doesn't have to be my child's. There are many ways to God and goodness and I wouldn't want my child to think there is only one. The best spiritual path is the one you find for yourself, IMO, and I am much more comfortable with a question-oriented church than with answer-oriented fundamentalism.

My husband was raised by a fundamentalist mother who relies entirely on clear-cut, black-and-white answers. She absolutely believes there is only one path to Heaven. In fact, she told my husband's younger sibling that my husband was going to Hell because he had rejected Christianity. This upbringing caused a very deep wound for my husband and he is only now able to walk into a church without being inwardly freaked out. He has found his own path and community, but thanks to his upbringing, he will never accept even a moderate, loving, inclusive Christianity for himself. This happens more often than you might think, and it is unfortunate.
Anonymous
Post 01/08/2014 10:11     Subject: Religious families-Do your children easily love God?
*indoctrinating their kids.
Anonymous
Post 01/08/2014 10:10     Subject: Religious families-Do your children easily love God?
14:28 here (as well as 15:22 and 17:15) -

I was the one who praised 08:24's approach of setting an example and hoping the children follow. My concerns about indoctrination aren't directed at you, and I don't think anyone else's should be, either. You're education your kids in a respectful manner, letting them make their choices.

Indoctrination is the poster who talked about 5 adults in addition to parents constantly reinforcing a child's belief.

And the OP wrote:

I'm not talking about force or coercion, but setting an example. Showing your kids that faith, and Gods love are all you really need in this world.


while another poster is forcing her kids to go to church to "worship God" (not to experience "God's love") even though it has a negative effect on the family's whole day, etc.

Some parents are clearly providing an example and guidance, and allowing their children to explore and make up their own minds. Others are, at least based on what's written here, force-feeding religion and indoctri


Anonymous
Post 01/08/2014 10:07     Subject: Religious families-Do your children easily love God?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
I believe I read about that statistic in the Pew Foundation report on religion, which came out a year or two ago.

It is pretty much impossible for me to converse with you on this when you refer to raising children with certain beliefs and values using the inflammatory term "indoctrination," particularly when you (was it you at 14:28?) cited my parenting practices in this arena as "respecting your kids, teaching them, and allowing them to make their own choices."


It's your call, of course, to cut of conversation in you want to, but please know that I'm using indoctrination correctly -- nothing inlamatory about it -- it just describes immersion in belief with minimal or no access to other beliefs or fact or evidence to the contrary of the beliefs.

I was not 14:28 and I agree that your approach is better than the person (assuming it's someone else) who has put their kids in Catholic to shield them from other points of view. I say that any religious instruction that teaches that one interpretation of God is the correct one that must be "believed" is indoctrination.

I was mildly indoctrinated as a child - taught that the tenets of Catholism were true (in Sunday school) and taught by my parents that protestants were good people who wrongly broke away from Catholism and that Jews could be good people despite the fact that they didn't believe that Jesus was the son of God. Still, it was indoctrination - based strictly on religious beliefs.


Too bad for you. I was not indoctrinated as a child, nor do I indoctrinate my children (per your definition).



Do you actively teach your kids about other religions and humanism? Do you tell them that morals are separate from religion -- that morals exist with or without religion? Do you teach them that the beliefs in religions are from stories that may not have actually happened and that "supernatural" means things that take place outside of nature for which there is no evidence? If so -- good for you -- you are not indoctrinating your children.
Anonymous
Post 01/08/2014 10:01     Subject: Religious families-Do your children easily love God?
Anonymous wrote:
FYI, I do not emphasize "only the specific version of God (we) want (our) children to know about." I teach my children about the only God I know and the religion I practice and believe in. Which is no different from teaching them about anything else I believe in and practice.

And I do it in the context of the world at large, not in a cult bubble hidden away in the wilderness.


So how is this the "only god you know" if you haven't been deprived oof or shielded from knowledge of other perceptions of god (or no god). Maybe this is the god you chose after checking out other gods and religions and now want your children to be limited to this god, even those they aren't naturally taking to it, the way you did.

Would you teach your kids to only eat peas, saying that it was the only vegetable you knew about and/or believed was good for your child, based on your own love of peas? If one of them left the peas on his plate everytime, Would you put him in a peas-only environment to encourage him to eat peas and to shield him from other forms of vegatables?

Probably not. Perhaps the analogy seems extreme - but it's still indoctrination.

If your other kid loved peas and refused other vegatables, would you encourage him to try other vegetables and teach him the benefits of variety in his diet? Probably - and you might also be happy that he's picked up his Mom's love of peas, without ever implying that peas were superior to any other vegetable because Mom loved them so.
Anonymous
Post 01/08/2014 09:24     Subject: Religious families-Do your children easily love God?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
I believe I read about that statistic in the Pew Foundation report on religion, which came out a year or two ago.

It is pretty much impossible for me to converse with you on this when you refer to raising children with certain beliefs and values using the inflammatory term "indoctrination," particularly when you (was it you at 14:28?) cited my parenting practices in this arena as "respecting your kids, teaching them, and allowing them to make their own choices."


It's your call, of course, to cut of conversation in you want to, but please know that I'm using indoctrination correctly -- nothing inlamatory about it -- it just describes immersion in belief with minimal or no access to other beliefs or fact or evidence to the contrary of the beliefs.

I was not 14:28 and I agree that your approach is better than the person (assuming it's someone else) who has put their kids in Catholic to shield them from other points of view. I say that any religious instruction that teaches that one interpretation of God is the correct one that must be "believed" is indoctrination.

I was mildly indoctrinated as a child - taught that the tenets of Catholism were true (in Sunday school) and taught by my parents that protestants were good people who wrongly broke away from Catholism and that Jews could be good people despite the fact that they didn't believe that Jesus was the son of God. Still, it was indoctrination - based strictly on religious beliefs.


Too bad for you. I was not indoctrinated as a child, nor do I indoctrinate my children (per your definition).

Anonymous
Post 01/08/2014 09:23     Subject: Religious families-Do your children easily love God?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
I believe I read about that statistic in the Pew Foundation report on religion, which came out a year or two ago.

It is pretty much impossible for me to converse with you on this when you refer to raising children with certain beliefs and values using the inflammatory term "indoctrination," particularly when you (was it you at 14:28?) cited my parenting practices in this arena as "respecting your kids, teaching them, and allowing them to make their own choices."


It's your call, of course, to cut of conversation in you want to, but please know that I'm using indoctrination correctly -- nothing inlamatory about it -- it just describes immersion in belief with minimal or no access to other beliefs or fact or evidence to the contrary of the beliefs.

I was not 14:28 and I agree that your approach is better than the person (assuming it's someone else) who has put their kids in Catholic to shield them from other points of view. I say that any religious instruction that teaches that one interpretation of God is the correct one that must be "believed" is indoctrination.

I was mildly indoctrinated as a child - taught that the tenets of Catholism were true (in Sunday school) and taught by my parents that protestants were good people who wrongly broke away from Catholism and that Jews could be good people despite the fact that they didn't believe that Jesus was the son of God. Still, it was indoctrination - based strictly on religious beliefs.


If that is your definition, my approach does not meet it.
Anonymous
Post 01/08/2014 09:21     Subject: Religious families-Do your children easily love God?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I am not Catholic and don't have kids. You're still thinking in terms of force. That will obviously never work. I wouldn't force children to do anything.

Forget all organized religions and just focus on love, kindness and compassion. Yeah, I could be a humanist, but where's the story? Where's the myth? Where's the magic? That can be found in the story of Christ. Why not use that a a vehicle? What's the worse that can happen? Nobody has answered that. save for "you're indoctrinating them."

In what? What are you afraid of? How is teaching children about God hurting anybody?


Which God? There are many, and I understand the parents' right and desire to emphasize only the specific version of God they want their children to know about. But parents must also know about outside influences and natural personality differences among kids. And parents should know that many good people find another version of God (or no god) once they are adults. Teaching is different from indoctrination. I hope you understand that.


I don't think anyone is disputing that.

I don't understand why you think you need to argue about this. No one is arguing with you.

FYI, I do not emphasize "only the specific version of God (we) want (our) children to know about." I teach my children about the only God I know and the religion I practice and believe in. Which is no different from teaching them about anything else I believe in and practice.

And I do it in the context of the world at large, not in a cult bubble hidden away in the wilderness.
Anonymous
Post 01/08/2014 09:19     Subject: Religious families-Do your children easily love God?
Anonymous wrote:
I believe I read about that statistic in the Pew Foundation report on religion, which came out a year or two ago.

It is pretty much impossible for me to converse with you on this when you refer to raising children with certain beliefs and values using the inflammatory term "indoctrination," particularly when you (was it you at 14:28?) cited my parenting practices in this arena as "respecting your kids, teaching them, and allowing them to make their own choices."


It's your call, of course, to cut of conversation in you want to, but please know that I'm using indoctrination correctly -- nothing inlamatory about it -- it just describes immersion in belief with minimal or no access to other beliefs or fact or evidence to the contrary of the beliefs.

I was not 14:28 and I agree that your approach is better than the person (assuming it's someone else) who has put their kids in Catholic to shield them from other points of view. I say that any religious instruction that teaches that one interpretation of God is the correct one that must be "believed" is indoctrination.

I was mildly indoctrinated as a child - taught that the tenets of Catholism were true (in Sunday school) and taught by my parents that protestants were good people who wrongly broke away from Catholism and that Jews could be good people despite the fact that they didn't believe that Jesus was the son of God. Still, it was indoctrination - based strictly on religious beliefs.
Anonymous
Post 01/08/2014 08:42     Subject: Religious families-Do your children easily love God?
Anonymous wrote:I am not Catholic and don't have kids. You're still thinking in terms of force. That will obviously never work. I wouldn't force children to do anything.

Forget all organized religions and just focus on love, kindness and compassion. Yeah, I could be a humanist, but where's the story? Where's the myth? Where's the magic? That can be found in the story of Christ. Why not use that a a vehicle? What's the worse that can happen? Nobody has answered that. save for "you're indoctrinating them."

In what? What are you afraid of? How is teaching children about God hurting anybody?


Which God? There are many, and I understand the parents' right and desire to emphasize only the specific version of God they want their children to know about. But parents must also know about outside influences and natural personality differences among kids. And parents should know that many good people find another version of God (or no god) once they are adults. Teaching is different from indoctrination. I hope you understand that.
Anonymous
Post 01/08/2014 08:25     Subject: Re:Religious families-Do your children easily love God?
08:21 here. I should add, as far as I know he doesn't pray, but he might. And he says he hates service (which he is not required to attend), but from time to time he goes on his own.
Anonymous
Post 01/08/2014 08:24     Subject: Religious families-Do your children easily love God?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
You can't choose something from nothing. You can only choose it from some basis. My goal has been and is to give my kids that basis. The rest is up to them.


But that basis doesn't have to be modeling from your parents - it can be, but doesn't have to be. It could come from teachers, or friends or friends' parents, or the internet, etc. If could even be the eact opposite of what parents were modeling.

Parents are important, but they don't control their children's natural proclivities. Anyone who was ever a kid once knows that.


Statistically speaking, people who are raised with nothing in the way of religion continue with nothing as adults. They do not seek out organized religion, in general.

OTOH, people who grow up with religion make choices as adults. They may choose atheism or be agnostics, but it is a choice and not a default.

I never said that parents control their children's natural proclivities. In fact, I said the opposite.


I haven't seen that statistic -- can you cite a source? If that's so, it suggests that seeking a religion is not natural to a majority of people and that if fewer people were indoctrinated as children, fewer would be religious as adults.

What we have now -- at least in the US -- is most people being indoctrinated as children, with some of them dropping religion as they get older. Some people do it quite easily. Others go through an immense amount of turmoil. Seems to me, it would be beter not to indoctrinate in the first place, assuming religion is natural and generally a good thing for people with a innate tendency toward it.


I believe I read about that statistic in the Pew Foundation report on religion, which came out a year or two ago.

It is pretty much impossible for me to converse with you on this when you refer to raising children with certain beliefs and values using the inflammatory term "indoctrination," particularly when you (was it you at 14:28?) cited my parenting practices in this arena as "respecting your kids, teaching them, and allowing them to make their own choices."
Anonymous
Post 01/08/2014 08:21     Subject: Religious families-Do your children easily love God?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
I'm the PP whose post you quoted last. I am glad to hear you think I'm taking the right approach. The thing is, we cannot (and should not IMO) try to control our kids' spiritual lives. We can only lay the foundation and show them how we approach our own spiritual lives. My kids know that I pray, they know that I give thanks, they see and participate with me in religious observance. They understand why I value it, even as they say (from time to time) that they do not.

Despite protests to the contrary, my older child is so interested in all things spiritual/religious that I would be surprised if he didn't participate in organized religion of some kind as an adult. I don't know that he will be a Christian (he says Judaism makes more sense to him) but I think he will practice *something*. He is very well-versed in religion generally. If he does choose to practice as an adult, I will feel I have done my job in terms of giving him familiarity and comfort with religious rituals, communities and practices, all of which have served my needs in so many ways during my life.

You can't choose something from nothing. You can only choose it from some basis. My goal has been and is to give my kids that basis. The rest is up to them.


Just a reference point, but I'm the PP who grew up is a very religious household and who stopped believing as a child. During middle childhood and my teen years, I sounded a lot like your older kid. I knew a lot about religion, prayed constantly, actively participated in the church community, etc. My mom and religious teachers thought I was deeply religious and interested in religion. The truth was that I did not believe but had no language to even explain what it meant to not believe. I thought something was wrong with me, so I overcompensated in an attempt to force belief.

I am not raising my children religious at all. I have offered to take them to my parents' church and they could go with my mom, but none have shown interest thus far. So far they've decided they're atheist as well, but we're careful to let them know it would be okay if they decided to believe in a god or gods, so long as they were kind about it.


You sound nothing like my older kid. He says he is agnostic. He does not pray. He loves youth group but hates going to service. All of which is fine with me; I've given him the foundation and now it is up to him whether or not to do anything with it.

He is interested in spirituality and religion as academic matters, e.g. comparative religion and the role religion and religious beliefs play in politics.

So no, nothing like you.