Anonymous
10/21/2013 08:45
Subject: Re:Bad News for Test Prep Parents
Anonymous wrote:[.
If you don't think AAP is any better than gen ed, then why do you care if people prep? If people are dumb enough to waste time and money on something that gets them nothing and disadvantages no one, then no biggies, prep, don't prep, everyone gets the same anyway. And why would Fairfax County want useless info about prepping when it doesn't really affect anyone anyway? Wouldn't spending time giving useless information be a waste of valuable time? There must be some better use for that time. There also must be better use of your time than telling people to report themselves for engaging in entirely benign activities that disadvantage no one.
I did not say I did not think it is better, I said there is limited evidence that it is better. I was DD in AAP because the peer group is better. As she is now approaching middle school, I want her to have friends that want to get the work done, and do well.
As for reporting themselves, all I am saying is if you don't think you are cheating, tell the school. If you think your are cheating, you are damaging your children's ethical health, as you are telling them it is ok to break rules to get ahead. Breaking the rules to get a head lead to the current economic crisis; it lead to ENRON, it ls causing the PED scandals in sports.
I with the county would come out at specifically state the position on test prep. They indicate that it is not likely. They could come out with a statement: The FxAT is designed to be taken without preparation; preparation does not allow the county to measure what they are trying to measure, and is considered cheating.
My problem with test prep is that it skews the results. It does nothing more that improve the scores -- not the intelligence of the child, but the score on the CogAT/FxAT.
At this point, I think the test prep problem (starting a few years ago) has gotten to the point where the score is meaningless, and the county should give up on the concept of an objective measure based on the CogAT/FxAT, as it is no longer objective. It is becoming Garbage In Garbage out.
For the record, I agree completely with your views re: CogAt/FxAT scores having become meaningless, etc. However, I wish you wouldn't state that the AAP peer group is "better". This just perpetuates the myth that GE kids are somehow completely different from their AAP counterparts, when the reality is that most of them came in just under the CogAt cutoff score. The majority of GE kids are virtually indistinguishable from AAP kids. Which is clear evidence that the CogAt/FxAT in-pool score needs to be much higher, to catch only the kids who [b]need to be in AAP.
Anonymous
10/21/2013 07:13
Subject: Re:Bad News for Test Prep Parents
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
...
+100. It puts parents in a very difficult position when FCPS gives some indication that prepping isn't okay, but does nothing to principals or other school personnel who mention the a availability of prep materials to student at their schools and also allow the scores regardless of prepping. Do you not prep your child knowing you are putting them at a disadvantage to those who prep or do you prep and give your child and advantage over those who haven't. Not a good position to put parents in. Also, if FCPS is going to ask about prepping, they need to do it in every classroom at all schools.
This is what I disagree with: the notion that not prepping puts the kids at a disadvantage. The only place where prepping for the CogAT/FxAT matters in in AAP admissions. First, there is little evidence that AAP is significantly better than general education. In fact, in some places, larger class size might make the education worse. Second, there is no evidence that test prep helps AAP admissions. Near as I can tell, for scores near the in pool cutoff from the old CogAT (120-140), kids get in mostly based on the GBRS. If CogAT was really important, my DD would not be in AAP.
Prep if you want. But I think 1) you should be honest about it (tell the school), and 2) there are probably better use of the time.
If you don't think AAP is any better than gen ed, then why do you care if people prep? If people are dumb enough to waste time and money on something that gets them nothing and disadvantages no one, then no biggies, prep, don't prep, everyone gets the same anyway. And why would Fairfax County want useless info about prepping when it doesn't really affect anyone anyway? Wouldn't spending time giving useless information be a waste of valuable time? There must be some better use for that time. There also must be better use of your time than telling people to report themselves for engaging in entirely benign activities that disadvantage no one.
I did not say I did not think it is better, I said there is limited evidence that it is better. I was DD in AAP because the peer group is better. As she is now approaching middle school, I want her to have friends that want to get the work done, and do well.
As for reporting themselves, all I am saying is if you don't think you are cheating, tell the school. If you think your are cheating, you are damaging your children's ethical health, as you are telling them it is ok to break rules to get ahead. Breaking the rules to get a head lead to the current economic crisis; it lead to ENRON, it ls causing the PED scandals in sports.
I with the county would come out at specifically state the position on test prep. They indicate that it is not likely. They could come out with a statement: The FxAT is designed to be taken without preparation; preparation does not allow the county to measure what they are trying to measure, and is considered cheating.
My problem with test prep is that it skews the results. It does nothing more that improve the scores -- not the intelligence of the child, but the score on the CogAT/FxAT.
At this point, I think the test prep problem (starting a few years ago) has gotten to the point where the score is meaningless, and the county should give up on the concept of an objective measure based on the CogAT/FxAT, as it is no longer objective. It is becoming Garbage In Garbage out.
Anonymous
10/21/2013 05:37
Subject: Re:Bad News for Test Prep Parents
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
...
+100. It puts parents in a very difficult position when FCPS gives some indication that prepping isn't okay, but does nothing to principals or other school personnel who mention the a availability of prep materials to student at their schools and also allow the scores regardless of prepping. Do you not prep your child knowing you are putting them at a disadvantage to those who prep or do you prep and give your child and advantage over those who haven't. Not a good position to put parents in. Also, if FCPS is going to ask about prepping, they need to do it in every classroom at all schools.
This is what I disagree with: the notion that not prepping puts the kids at a disadvantage. The only place where prepping for the CogAT/FxAT matters in in AAP admissions. First, there is little evidence that AAP is significantly better than general education. In fact, in some places, larger class size might make the education worse. Second, there is no evidence that test prep helps AAP admissions. Near as I can tell, for scores near the in pool cutoff from the old CogAT (120-140), kids get in mostly based on the GBRS. If CogAT was really important, my DD would not be in AAP.
Prep if you want. But I think 1) you should be honest about it (tell the school), and 2) there are probably better use of the time.
If you don't think AAP is any better than gen ed, then why do you care if people prep? If people are dumb enough to waste time and money on something that gets them nothing and disadvantages no one, then no biggies, prep, don't prep, everyone gets the same anyway. And why would Fairfax County want useless info about prepping when it doesn't really affect anyone anyway? Wouldn't spending time giving useless information be a waste of valuable time? There must be some better use for that time. There also must be better use of your time than telling people to report themselves for engaging in entirely benign activities that disadvantage no one.
Anonymous
10/20/2013 17:58
Subject: Re:Bad News for Test Prep Parents
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I'm not sure I fully subscribe to this American notion that you should get into this program (or not) based solely on your "natural" gifts.
No one is suggesting you should have to agree with this American notion, but since Fairfax County is in the United States of America, would you agree that it is not all that odd that the standards by which the schools are run should be based on American ideas? Not saying that American ideas are better than any other culture's ideas, but isn't it reasonable that any country's schools be run based on that country's ideas?
If I were living in England or France, it would not surprise me at all that their schools were being run according to English or French ideas, and while I might not agree with everything, if I were sending my children to their schools, I wouldn't expect them to do things differently because I disagreed. It seems to be that it is standard procedure (and generally good manners) to abide by the customs of the place where you are.
This is an ironic response because you clearly assumed I'm a foreigner-- which I'm not. My grandparents are all American-born children of Irish/German descent.
Actually, I made no assumption about the writer's nationality, nor was I being ironic. I simply was making the point that it shouldn't be that unusual to understand that a school system in the United States of America would subscribe to what are thought of as American ideas. My own grandparents were not all born in America, but that does not change my expectation that American schools will follow American standards. If I were in a country where a grandparent of mine was born, I would expect the schools to follow that country's standards and customs, even tough I was born in America.
I actually don't think the people who run AAP are sitting on the fence on this. They realize that the scores from these tests are not reliable when kids have been prepped, but they also realize that there really isn't a lot they can do about it. Last year they changed the test, but how many times can you change the test? That gets expensive. How do you really know if parents have prepped their kids in advance? You can't really have second graders signing an honor code.
I believe that eventually, they will drop this testing or simply give it much less weight in the process. You are right that if some families prep their kids and some do not, you end up with scores that simply don't have the same meaning that they would if all the kids took the test without prepping.
Anonymous
10/20/2013 17:55
Subject: Re:Bad News for Test Prep Parents
Anonymous wrote:
...
+100. It puts parents in a very difficult position when FCPS gives some indication that prepping isn't okay, but does nothing to principals or other school personnel who mention the a availability of prep materials to student at their schools and also allow the scores regardless of prepping. Do you not prep your child knowing you are putting them at a disadvantage to those who prep or do you prep and give your child and advantage over those who haven't. Not a good position to put parents in. Also, if FCPS is going to ask about prepping, they need to do it in every classroom at all schools.
This is what I disagree with: the notion that not prepping puts the kids at a disadvantage. The only place where prepping for the CogAT/FxAT matters in in AAP admissions. First, there is little evidence that AAP is significantly better than general education. In fact, in some places, larger class size might make the education worse. Second, there is no evidence that test prep helps AAP admissions. Near as I can tell, for scores near the in pool cutoff from the old CogAT (120-140), kids get in mostly based on the GBRS. If CogAT was really important, my DD would not be in AAP.
Prep if you want. But I think 1) you should be honest about it (tell the school), and 2) there are probably better use of the time.
Anonymous
10/20/2013 16:32
Subject: Re:Bad News for Test Prep Parents
Anonymous wrote:I'm not sure I fully subscribe to this American notion that you should get into this program (or not) based solely on your "natural" gifts.
No one is suggesting you should have to agree with this American notion, but since Fairfax County is in the United States of America, would you agree that it is not all that odd that the standards by which the schools are run should be based on American ideas? Not saying that American ideas are better than any other culture's ideas, but isn't it reasonable that any country's schools be run based on that country's ideas?
If I were living in England or France, it would not surprise me at all that their schools were being run according to English or French ideas, and while I might not agree with everything, if I were sending my children to their schools, I wouldn't expect them to do things differently because I disagreed. It seems to be that it is standard procedure (and generally good manners) to abide by the customs of the place where you are.
This is an ironic response because you clearly assumed I'm a foreigner-- which I'm not. My grandparents are all American-born children of Irish/German descent.
I was alluding to what I have frequently viewed as a cultural debate: many cultures (Korean/Indian/Japanese) view test preparation as a normal, responsible thing to do. It's not "cheating". And then I hear the backlash against that practice (usually coming from non-Asain parents), saying this is all cheating and AAP should be for naturally gifted kids who do well without any prep.
I'm here in Ffx county and happy to abide by whatever rules they want to make. But Ffx county is DECIDEDLY SITTING THE FENCE on this. They're come out and said "the best prep is a good night's sleep", but they haven't come out and said prepping is discouraged/cheating. Sure, different individuals have given their unofficial views, but the official policy has been very vague. I can't help but think that part of the reason for the vague policy is because they know that many parents in ffx county BELIEVE in prepping, or have is as part of their culture. I have a hard time believing that school board member Moon would EVER come out and label this "cheating"-- as probably many of the Korean-American parents who support him believe that prepping is simply what hard-working students do.
Anonymous
10/20/2013 15:54
Subject: Re:Bad News for Test Prep Parents
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
Yes, why is it that people don't like the school to know that they're prepping or get nervous when they think the school is asking kids if they'd been prepping? Why would that be?
LOL!! +1
I'll answer this.
My older son got into AAP last year (with no prepping). My younger son is taking the test this year. I've debated whether I should "prep" him. Prep, to me, would look like running him through a few questions to see how he's doing. In part I would want to do it for my own sanity of knowing how he could/should do. But I realize "prep" to other people can run the gammut.
FWIW, I am not against prepping, and I don't view it as cheating. But I (like many others on this board) often wonder whether "everyone else is doing it" and whether I'm just jeopardizing my (naturally smart) child's chances at AAP by not playing the game. To think that my kid might get bumped because he wasn't prepared is hard to think about. And let's be real here folks -- regardless of the initial intent -- AAP is NOT a program for "gifted" students. It is a program that is designed for kids who can move at a faster pace. If your kid can do that because he's naturally bright -- great. If your kid can do that because he studies his butt off -- that's fine be me too. As long as he can keep up, I really don't care how. I'm not sure I fully subscribe to this American notion that you should get into this program (or not) based solely on your "natural" gifts. I think its a bit farcical.
But I think that Fairfax County has been sitting the fence on this issue -- in large part due to Il Ryong Moon and some other school board members. there is no consensus. They haven't made it "illegal" (although they could), so you have everyone -- teachers, AARTs, students and parents struggling through on their own.
If I show my kid 1 practice test question -- just to see if he understands -- and then his teacher asks this question at the CogAT, and he shoots up his hand -- is he going to be put in a box with the kids in his class who have been taking after school classes on this stuff for 6 months? And his teacher (whom I don't know) -- will she dock his GBRS because she is "anti-prep"? In addition, my child is prone to seeking the "right" answer (regardless of whether or not it is truthful). I could easily see him bragging (falsely) to his friends, teachers -- "oh yes, I've see HUNDREDS of these questions" -- even though its not true.
So, in my view -- unless and until FFX County comes out with a specific policy that 1) defines prepping; and 2) indicates that it is not allowed -- they shouldn't be asking. It's unfair to everyone involved.
+100. It puts parents in a very difficult position when FCPS gives some indication that prepping isn't okay, but does nothing to principals or other school personnel who mention the a availability of prep materials to student at their schools and also allow the scores regardless of prepping. Do you not prep your child knowing you are putting them at a disadvantage to those who prep or do you prep and give your child and advantage over those who haven't. Not a good position to put parents in. Also, if FCPS is going to ask about prepping, they need to do it in every classroom at all schools.
