Anonymous wrote:OP -

The truth of the matter is that language is not the only barrier in a high ESOL scenario. These are not kids from homes where parents are reading to them at night although in Spanish.

The kids doing well in MCPS are those with highly educated parents and with families that give importance to enrichment and learning outside of school. This is not what is true of the majority of the ESOL kids.

So, yes, MCPS and the teachers will make a very strong attempt to get them up to speed...but your kid will suffer in the end because standards will be dramatically lowered.

I for one applaud that MCPS will concentrate in teaching curriculum 2.0 to ESOL. That is the correct thing to do.

Being in a school that is heavily ESOL is not detrimental because of the language barrier ...it is detrimental because of the disparity in socio-economic status and educational level of parents.

Do you have evidence to back this up or are you just spouting well worn dogma?

Spanish immersion

I am super liberal and in favor of ESOL. But I would not sent my child to a class that was majority ESOL, unless there were literally two full time teachers. The MCPS ESOL teacher who posted earlier seemed to indicate that that was more or less how they handle it. But I would want to be very careful and observe to make sure that my child was getting appropriate instruction.

to the poster who takes issue with the generalizations of educational backgrounds of FARMS families etc. I'm not the poster you're responding to, but I am one of the posters who has elected, after visiting the school and researching my options, decided not to send my kid to an almost exclusively poor/ESOL school. Of course you're right that generalizations will sometimes miss the mark, but at least at our school, the fact is that you are dealing with a largely uneducated immigrant population who live in the nearby apartment complexes. I know of families who don't fit the profile and it's surprising to learn that they are eligible for FARMS (somebody lost a job; they work in social services and have a career but not much earning potential etc.), but when you're at a school that is predominately ESOL and FARMS (and by predominately, I mean hitting or at least inching towards the 90% mark), and you interact with those parents at school events etc., and just look around, it isn't racist or prejudicial/animus leading you to these conclusions. It's a readily apparent fact. It won't always be the case, but the poster who makes some of those generalizations is dealing with established and documented demographics of the poorer side of the montgomery county (or at least that's the part of maryland I'm talking about) and it's not a secret or in legitimate dispute. It's one of the big challenges faced by the school district and they know it, and as far as I know they acknowledge it, because the teachers will confirm it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I really enjoy reading the posts by the people who jump to the defense of ESOL children that they don't know. Every imaginable excuse has been given for their poor performance and eventual outcome.

The same people are the same parents who will rush to the principals office to get a class change if there is someone named Gomez or Gonzales in their darlings class.

Does that happen often and quite openly? Seems quite surprising, and as racist as if they profiled AA or others that way.

Yes, I'm wondering how the PP knows that the posters who are saying, "ESOL kids are not necessarily all stupid and hopeless" also rush to get a class change if there is somebody with a Hispanic name in their class. Does the PP have all of our IP addresses, and files on our kids from MCPS?

Huh?
What a stupid assumption.
Why would I do that ?
I don't know all FARMS kids and neither do you.
But I do know they are not all stupid, all of their parents are not stupid or will only work at McDonald's as their only career option.
Some of educated parents with low incomes ( for various reasons) and some of uneducated and uninvolved parents.
Some may even have educated uninvolved parents.
What I do know is the generalizing and ignorance on this thread is amazing.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I really enjoy reading the posts by the people who jump to the defense of ESOL children that they don't know. Every imaginable excuse has been given for their poor performance and eventual outcome.

The same people are the same parents who will rush to the principals office to get a class change if there is someone named Gomez or Gonzales in their darlings class.

Does that happen often and quite openly? Seems quite surprising, and as racist as if they profiled AA or others that way.

Yes, I'm wondering how the PP knows that the posters who are saying, "ESOL kids are not necessarily all stupid and hopeless" also rush to get a class change if there is somebody with a Hispanic name in their class. Does the PP have all of our IP addresses, and files on our kids from MCPS?

Anonymous wrote:I really enjoy reading the posts by the people who jump to the defense of ESOL children that they don't know. Every imaginable excuse has been given for their poor performance and eventual outcome.

The same people are the same parents who will rush to the principals office to get a class change if there is someone named Gomez or Gonzales in their darlings class.

Does that happen often and quite openly? Seems quite surprising, and as racist as if they profiled AA or others that way.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP -

The truth of the matter is that language is not the only barrier in a high ESOL scenario. These are not kids from homes where parents are reading to them at night although in Spanish.

The kids doing well in MCPS are those with highly educated parents and with families that give importance to enrichment and learning outside of school. This is not what is true of the majority of the ESOL kids.

So, yes, MCPS and the teachers will make a very strong attempt to get them up to speed...but your kid will suffer in the end because standards will be dramatically lowered.

I for one applaud that MCPS will concentrate in teaching curriculum 2.0 to ESOL. That is the correct thing to do.

Being in a school that is heavily ESOL is not detrimental because of the language barrier ...it is detrimental because of the disparity in socio-economic status and educational level of parents.

This post is the epitome of the lack of sophistication on DCUM. I dont have the stomach for this thread, so apologies if this PP's flaws have been covered, but... one on my best friends to this day (I'm 40) came to this country in second grade not speaking any english. Her parents were/are both PhD economists - US degrees - at the World Bank, both of whom went on to Cabinet level positions in a developed South American country. They read to her and her siblings, did math with them at home etc...but she was ESOL.

I don't understand the implied speaking Spanish = lower education/ SES arguments. You do realize most people outside of the US speak multiple languages, right? and that exposing your children to other languages/cultures is beneficial?

The above poster has very limited brain power. I am surprised that the two PhD Economists working at the World Bank, who read to their kids each nights, and had US degrees, so obviously could speak English...allowed their kids to be friends with this poster.

I said " The kids doing well in MCPS are those with highly educated parents and with families that give importance to enrichment and learning outside of school. This is not what is true of the majority of the ESOL kids. "

And I know a lot of parents who come from other countries, highly educated, who will only speak to their children in their native language so that they can become fluent in it. They choose to speak to their kids in a foreign language because they know that the kids can pick up English easily (through ESOL).

These parents can talk to other parents and the school administrators in English. They are not getting FARMS, they are educated, they are invested in their kids education and thus their kids did well.

They are not representative of the majority of ESOL parents. They probably lived in Bethesda as well.

Though I am surprised that they let the village idiot befriend their kids...oh well, these foreigners are crazy!

I really enjoy reading the posts by the people who jump to the defense of ESOL children that they don't know. Every imaginable excuse has been given for their poor performance and eventual outcome.

The same people are the same parents who will rush to the principals office to get a class change if there is someone named Gomez or Gonzales in their darlings class.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP,

Look up your school and its "At a Glance" report on the MCPS site:

http://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/schools/

Check the ESOL population % for the data so as to put the "names sound like" argument to rest that pps bring up.

Check the standardized testing scores if you are concerned.

The test results may give you insight as to whether or not everyone ESOL is "caught up and really chatty" by the time they are in 2nd grade or the MSA's roll around in 3rd grade. This may or may not be generally reflected.

Then decide to stay put or look elsewhere if you choose so.

Our Bethesda elem. listed a nearly 9% esol and >= 95% MSA pass rates. That said, farms rate is low.

Bingo!

Bingo what exactly?

FARMS rates being low is indicative of the economic earning power. That translates into better educated people. Schools will categorize any non-native English speaker in ESOL. I put English as my native tongue, even if it is not, because my kids do not need ESOL.

There is a big difference between a parent who is a Hispanic day laborer and another who is an Engineer from Spain...even if Spanish is the language spoken at their homes.

Besides the ESOL is only 9%...these are kids whose parents are foreign born and who can afford homes in Bethesda. Get real. These are mainly Europeans.

Yea I understand that
But you realize that low income here is about average elsewhere
So I think u cannot automatically assume household us undereducated and has little earning power potential

Low income here may be about average in nation...but cost of living here is one of the highest as well... so this is a very circular argument from someone who declared that their Bethesda ES has 9% ESOL...very low FARMS...95% MSA passing rates. Seriously, are you for real?

Are you for real?
Nothing circular at all
$40,000 may be average somewhere else but earning it here may make them lower than average
BUT IT DOES NOT MSKE THEM STUPID OR LOSE THE ABILITY TO EARN MORE.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP -

The truth of the matter is that language is not the only barrier in a high ESOL scenario. These are not kids from homes where parents are reading to them at night although in Spanish.

The kids doing well in MCPS are those with highly educated parents and with families that give importance to enrichment and learning outside of school. This is not what is true of the majority of the ESOL kids.

So, yes, MCPS and the teachers will make a very strong attempt to get them up to speed...but your kid will suffer in the end because standards will be dramatically lowered.

I for one applaud that MCPS will concentrate in teaching curriculum 2.0 to ESOL. That is the correct thing to do.

Being in a school that is heavily ESOL is not detrimental because of the language barrier ...it is detrimental because of the disparity in socio-economic status and educational level of parents.

This post is the epitome of the lack of sophistication on DCUM. I dont have the stomach for this thread, so apologies if this PP's flaws have been covered, but... one on my best friends to this day (I'm 40) came to this country in second grade not speaking any english. Her parents were/are both PhD economists - US degrees - at the World Bank, both of whom went on to Cabinet level positions in a developed South American country. They read to her and her siblings, did math with them at home etc...but she was ESOL.

I don't understand the implied speaking Spanish = lower education/ SES arguments. You do realize most people outside of the US speak multiple languages, right? and that exposing your children to other languages/cultures is beneficial?

Really? I'll let you in on a secret; the Hispanic ESOL kids in MoCo don't tend to be kids of world bank employees. 25% of Hispanic students in MoCo don't graduate high school.

Anonymous wrote:OP -

The truth of the matter is that language is not the only barrier in a high ESOL scenario. These are not kids from homes where parents are reading to them at night although in Spanish.

The kids doing well in MCPS are those with highly educated parents and with families that give importance to enrichment and learning outside of school. This is not what is true of the majority of the ESOL kids.

So, yes, MCPS and the teachers will make a very strong attempt to get them up to speed...but your kid will suffer in the end because standards will be dramatically lowered.

I for one applaud that MCPS will concentrate in teaching curriculum 2.0 to ESOL. That is the correct thing to do.

Being in a school that is heavily ESOL is not detrimental because of the language barrier ...it is detrimental because of the disparity in socio-economic status and educational level of parents.

This post is the epitome of the lack of sophistication on DCUM. I dont have the stomach for this thread, so apologies if this PP's flaws have been covered, but... one on my best friends to this day (I'm 40) came to this country in second grade not speaking any english. Her parents were/are both PhD economists - US degrees - at the World Bank, both of whom went on to Cabinet level positions in a developed South American country. They read to her and her siblings, did math with them at home etc...but she was ESOL.

I don't understand the implied speaking Spanish = lower education/ SES arguments. You do realize most people outside of the US speak multiple languages, right? and that exposing your children to other languages/cultures is beneficial?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: I have a four-year-old, and if we get our way, she will be attending my 60% ESOL elementary school next year. A K class with a high ESOL population DOES have a different dynamic than one that's primarily English-only speakers, but it's not necessarily a bad thing. Your child may very well be one that benefits from strategies aimed at reaching diverse learners.

As an ESOL teacher, do you speak Spanish

I'm asking because IMO, it makes a huge difference if you are able to speak Spanish. I'm a PP who mentioned that it's been tougher for DS (and DH and I) to build friendships in the same way we would if DS' classmates/families spoke English.

If you are able to speak Spanish, that is a tremendous help!

No, actually, I don't speak Spanish, but agree that communication with other parents can be an issue. At my school, you tend to see friendship groups forming around neighborhoods, not necessarily classrooms (one reason why I find these "invite the whole class to the birthday party" threads baffling!).

To answer another question posted about who goes into ESOL, in MCPS all new students (usually at K orientation) are given a home language survey, asking what languages are spoken at home. If there's a language other than English, the student will be given a one-on-one listening and speaking test once school starts. This can sometimes result in a shy kid getting placed in ESOL in kindergarten because he or she didn't want to talk during the test, even though their English is on par with English-only peers. The end of year test is more thorough (and presented like a game) and accurate, so it's not unusual for that same shy kid to test out after only one year. Parents can also refuse ESOL service, but in my experience, that's pretty rare once they understand the model at my school.

http://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/departments/regulatoryaccountability/glance/currentyear/schools/02772.pdf

Viers Mill ES: 48% ESOL, 71% FARMS, >95% MSA passing in all grades

http://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/departments/regulatoryaccountability/glance/currentyear/schools/02774.pdf

Highland ES: 60% ESOL, 82% FARMS, 85-92% MSA passing

High ESOL/High FARMS =/= poor performing school in all cases.

You can always tell at Back to School Night, especially if there's a translator.

happened to my friend . . . She requested a change in classrooms and got it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here - you are right.... I didn't mean to imply that at all.
I was only thinking in terms of how the class is run as a whole to accommodate all the students
there are 22 total in the class and 13 are ESOL.

Anonymous wrote:ESOL has nothing to do with intelligence or behavior. Why would this be a concern? I know several brilliant people who started off as ESOL students.

How do you know the kids qualify for ESOL? Why would you be given this information? Or, are you guessing, based on the kids' names?

It would be a safe assumption, in general.