Anonymous
08/22/2013 18:22
Subject: Is there any objective source of information on light drinking during pregnancy?
My pregnancy is super high risk so there's no way I'd chance drinking alcohol. However, if my pregnancy were normal and healthy I might have done a glass on our anniversary or my birthday. But that's about it.
Anonymous
08/22/2013 15:38
Subject: Is there any objective source of information on light drinking during pregnancy?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:If you only plan on having one drink during pregnancy, then why bother at all?
Obviously you are researching because you want to have more than one drink.
Oh absolutely. Because when I was pregnant, I was at a wedding where I was required to give a toast and then later, I was also at a Christmas party where I was served a glass of wine with dinner. Then much later, I went to dinner to celebrate my last day at work before maternity leave. Then a week after that, when I was stuck in early labor for 3 days, my midwife suggested that I have a glass of wine and try to relax.
So that was, from when I found out that I was pregnant until I was in labor, exactly 4 drinks. I did ask my midwife and also read some books to learn more about this guideline. Some of the guidelines that proscribe behavior are more serious than others, in my opinion. For example, I think we can all agree that use of heroin is likely more harmful to a fetus than a glass of wine with dinner. I wanted to know if this was one of those times. Not because I wanted to go out and do tequila shooters for hours. Not because I wanted to drink secret morning wine every day. But because for me personally, as well as a lot of other people in the world, drinking wine or beer or even scotch is not about "feeling a buzz". Everyone has rituals that they engage in and things that they do to mark a noteworthy occasion. For me, as well as a lot of other people in the world, a champagne toast or a toast with a glass of wine at dinner is one of those rituals. Could I complete the same ritual with water in the glass instead of wine? Of course. It's not essential. There's just nothing in the research that I did, or the medical professionals I consulted, that those 4 glasses of wine over 9 months were so dangerous that I should eliminate them.
FOUR GLASSES OF WINE, people. It's not a frat party.[/quote]
And its NINE months....NOT a lifetime!
Anonymous
08/22/2013 14:46
Subject: Is there any objective source of information on light drinking during pregnancy?
Anonymous wrote:I write this as someone who spent two hours today in a child therapist's office, learning that my adopted DD, age 7, has something called Alcohol-Related Neurological Disorder (ARND) which is part of the fetal alcohol syndrome spectrum. She has none of the facial feature and physical irregularities typically associated with FAS---in fact, she is quite pretty.
And her IQ is within average range. She has severe dyslexia. She cannot add 2+2 without counting on her fingers. She is incapable of thinking in abstractions (e.g., you have to say explicitly, "Hang your coat on the hook on the door" instead of "Put your coat away". She has ADHD. She is easily emotionally overwhelmed with sensory overload (an ability to develop a filter is another alcohol-related impairment), which leads to tantrum meltdowns reminiscent of a 4 year old in terms of the screaming and lack of emotional regulation. Because of the lack of emotional regulation, she has great difficulty making or keeping friends. Her working memory is in the 4th percentile.
And she will struggle with these issues all of her life, even though her intelligence level is normal, because certain parts of her brain have been damaged.
If I can get her to graduate from high school, and avoid substance abuse, pregnancy or getting arrested (all common secondary effects in adolescence resulting from the impulsivity characteristic of ARND kids) then I will consider myself a success as a parent.
Her biological brother, who is 1 year older, and---quite probably---was also exposed to alcohol at some levels---has none of these issues. He is quite bright, social and cheerful, with lots of friends, excellent math and reading skills, and a very good memory.
The effects of alcohol on a fetus are dependent not only on amount of alcohol consumed, but the state of the developing fetus' neurological development at the exact time of consumption. I think of it as Russian Roulette. The pregnant alcoholic has a much greater risk of damaging her baby because she's pulling that trigger more often.
But do you really want to pull that trigger at all during any stage of pregnancy in which the fetus is still neurologically developing?
Most of your examples would also describe my 7 year old DD. I didn't drink a drop of alcohol or use any medication at all, for that matter, during my entire pregnancy. Some kids are going to have problems, no matter how perfectly their mothers take care of themselves during pregnancy.
Do you know how much her birthmom drank during pregnancy?
I find that those who are overly-emotional about FAS are not really thinking clearly - which of course is understandable given how it has affected their lives. However, bingeing or heavy drinking on a regular basis is completely different than small, occasional amounts of alcohol. And in fact, the research supports this fact.
I'm sorry about the problems your DD has, and thankfully she has a great mom who is helping her develop as well as possible.
Anonymous
08/22/2013 14:42
Subject: Re:Is there any objective source of information on light drinking during pregnancy?
Anonymous wrote:OP again. Wow, this thread really took off. I understand the "why would you take the risk when it isn't necessary?" argument -- in fact, that is the exact rationale I use for not eating deli meat during pregnancy, but I don't think it's a substitute for factual information. Here are my parameters for alcohol during pregnancy: Not until the second trimester. I only drink wine. One glass, 5 oz. or less (which is the official serving size for "one drink", my wine glasses are very small). Consumed slowly (in half an hour or more). Only with a meal (which is always dinner). Within those parameters, I never feel buzzed, not even lightly. I have a hard time believing that this could actually cause FAS or any type of problem for that matter, but that is what people suggest.
The anti-alcohol people just undermine their credibility to me by being so shrill and hyperbolic in their arguments. (Kind of like a lot of the anti-circ people, although I am anti-circ myself ... you just don't do yourself or your cause any favors by talking about something that is an everyday occurrence in extreme terms). I am always going to be more influenced by rationality, facts, and numbers than anecdotes, emotion, moralizing, and speculation. One takeaway you could glean from the Oster analysis is that there is, for various reasons, not enough research to draw a definitive conclusion about where the line is, and not much potential for being able to conduct the kind of research that would yield real answers. So, you just have to decide what feels cautious to you. For a lot of people that will be complete abstinence, for others it might be one drink a week, or a month, or whatever. But it's too bad that we can't know for sure. Or have a rational conversation about this issue, for that matter.
Interesting. I drank a small amount with food during the first few weeks prior to placenta formation (because the alcohol is diluted by your entire system) and maybe nothing during the second trimester. A public health researcherand neurobiologist I knew told me once that the problem is that alcohol is not filtered out of the uterus quickly enough and that baby's kidneys/liver can't break it down. So the problem is too much alcohol in a closed system. I did have a few half drinks at the end.
Anonymous
08/22/2013 14:33
Subject: Is there any objective source of information on light drinking during pregnancy?
Anonymous wrote:The latest CDC reports indicate that one out of thirteen pregnant women drink during pregnancy. Wonder if THAT has anything to do with all the kids with developmental/learning disabilities, behavior issues, etc. We'll likely neve know because what mommy will readily admit to drinking regularly during pregnancy after her kid is diagnosed with something...because then she'll have to admit fault.
Europeans drink far more - and much more openly - than Americans do, yet overall rates of developmental disabilities is lower in Europe. Perhaps you should change your theory....maybe all the uptight, panic-stricken American women are causing their children to have delays/disabilities due to all the extra stress.
Anonymous
08/22/2013 14:32
Subject: Is there any objective source of information on light drinking during pregnancy?
Anonymous wrote:To 22:26 - had you miscarried or had a child with a disability or delay, would you have second guessed some of your choices? Just curious since I think most of us err on the side of caution to avoid feeling any guilt should something have gone wrong.
PP who lost a pregnancy here. I had a genetic issue that happens to be a randomly inherited gene not that uncommon for caucasians to be a carrier of; never heard of it before. Both parents must be a carrier. Incidence is 1/500,000. So my experience of risk and my perspective on what risk in pregnancy means was completely obliterated and rebuilt. I have a 1/4 chance of a miserable outcome just by getting pregnant by my husband--you feel me? The little stuff like half a beer every now and then with dinner barely registers with me now.
Anonymous
08/22/2013 13:00
Subject: Is there any objective source of information on light drinking during pregnancy?
Anonymous wrote:If you only plan on having one drink during pregnancy, then why bother at all?
Obviously you are researching because you want to have more than one drink.
Oh absolutely. Because when I was pregnant, I was at a wedding where I was required to give a toast and then later, I was also at a Christmas party where I was served a glass of wine with dinner. Then much later, I went to dinner to celebrate my last day at work before maternity leave. Then a week after that, when I was stuck in early labor for 3 days, my midwife suggested that I have a glass of wine and try to relax.
So that was, from when I found out that I was pregnant until I was in labor, exactly 4 drinks. I did ask my midwife and also read some books to learn more about this guideline. Some of the guidelines that proscribe behavior are more serious than others, in my opinion. For example, I think we can all agree that use of heroin is likely more harmful to a fetus than a glass of wine with dinner. I wanted to know if this was one of those times. Not because I wanted to go out and do tequila shooters for hours. Not because I wanted to drink secret morning wine every day. But because for me personally, as well as a lot of other people in the world, drinking wine or beer or even scotch is not about "feeling a buzz". Everyone has rituals that they engage in and things that they do to mark a noteworthy occasion. For me, as well as a lot of other people in the world, a champagne toast or a toast with a glass of wine at dinner is one of those rituals. Could I complete the same ritual with water in the glass instead of wine? Of course. It's not essential. There's just nothing in the research that I did, or the medical professionals I consulted, that those 4 glasses of wine over 9 months were so dangerous that I should eliminate them.
FOUR GLASSES OF WINE, people. It's not a frat party.
Anonymous
08/22/2013 12:40
Subject: Re:Is there any objective source of information on light drinking during pregnancy?
me studies on the subject.Anonymous wrote:
But why do some of these posters HAVE to drink? i mean clearly if you go 9 months and heck, treat yourself to a sip a few weeks before delivery or something like that sure - no big deal. No need to worry and no need to do massive research on the topic. But if you are desperately searching to find out the bare minimum you can get away with on a daily basis... that is something different!!
Pre-term labor contractions.
Anonymous
08/22/2013 11:20
Subject: Is there any objective source of information on light drinking during pregnancy?
This isn't scientific (but I'm not sure Oster's book is either). It's an excerpt from the book The French Paradox, in relation to alcohol and pregnancy.
http://www.french-paradox.net/book/fpbkch19.html
http://www.french-paradox.net/book/fpbkch19.html
Anonymous
08/22/2013 11:04
Subject: Is there any objective source of information on light drinking during pregnancy?
I would worry more about not getting enough protein during pregnancy than having a drink or two a week, but that is just me.
Anonymous
08/22/2013 10:08
Subject: Re:Is there any objective source of information on light drinking during pregnancy?
OP again. Wow, this thread really took off. I understand the "why would you take the risk when it isn't necessary?" argument -- in fact, that is the exact rationale I use for not eating deli meat during pregnancy, but I don't think it's a substitute for factual information. Here are my parameters for alcohol during pregnancy: Not until the second trimester. I only drink wine. One glass, 5 oz. or less (which is the official serving size for "one drink", my wine glasses are very small). Consumed slowly (in half an hour or more). Only with a meal (which is always dinner). Within those parameters, I never feel buzzed, not even lightly. I have a hard time believing that this could actually cause FAS or any type of problem for that matter, but that is what people suggest.
The anti-alcohol people just undermine their credibility to me by being so shrill and hyperbolic in their arguments. (Kind of like a lot of the anti-circ people, although I am anti-circ myself ... you just don't do yourself or your cause any favors by talking about something that is an everyday occurrence in extreme terms). I am always going to be more influenced by rationality, facts, and numbers than anecdotes, emotion, moralizing, and speculation. One takeaway you could glean from the Oster analysis is that there is, for various reasons, not enough research to draw a definitive conclusion about where the line is, and not much potential for being able to conduct the kind of research that would yield real answers. So, you just have to decide what feels cautious to you. For a lot of people that will be complete abstinence, for others it might be one drink a week, or a month, or whatever. But it's too bad that we can't know for sure. Or have a rational conversation about this issue, for that matter.
The anti-alcohol people just undermine their credibility to me by being so shrill and hyperbolic in their arguments. (Kind of like a lot of the anti-circ people, although I am anti-circ myself ... you just don't do yourself or your cause any favors by talking about something that is an everyday occurrence in extreme terms). I am always going to be more influenced by rationality, facts, and numbers than anecdotes, emotion, moralizing, and speculation. One takeaway you could glean from the Oster analysis is that there is, for various reasons, not enough research to draw a definitive conclusion about where the line is, and not much potential for being able to conduct the kind of research that would yield real answers. So, you just have to decide what feels cautious to you. For a lot of people that will be complete abstinence, for others it might be one drink a week, or a month, or whatever. But it's too bad that we can't know for sure. Or have a rational conversation about this issue, for that matter.
Anonymous
08/21/2013 23:07
Subject: Is there any objective source of information on light drinking during pregnancy?
This thread makes me fear for this country.
Seriously, while there is no "official" safe threshold for alcohol, that is not because one drop or one drink is dangerous for a baby! It is just because it is not ethical to do controlled studies where you ask women to drink during pregnancy.
But there is also no safe threshold for crossing the street, for eating chocolate, for going camping or basically anything else that does not involve staying in your bubble.
FAS requires 5 DRINKS A DAY. Not 1 drink per pregnancy, not 2 drinks / week, or even 2 / day. For those of you who are you
freaked, can you please link to any diagnosis of a child with FAS whose mother was not binge drinking on a daily basis?
For those of you who are hugely phobic about alcohol and would like to avoid ALL alcohol, please note that the following beverages contain 1% alcohol so that avoiding them is more important than avoiding a few sips of wine:
* All juices, especially OJ
* Some sodas
* Many flavored coffee products
* Any liquid medicine (actually as much alcohol as vodka)
When you see your doctor telling you to avoid the above, you can start worrying about those few sips on of the PPs took of her mother's cocktail.
Seriously, while there is no "official" safe threshold for alcohol, that is not because one drop or one drink is dangerous for a baby! It is just because it is not ethical to do controlled studies where you ask women to drink during pregnancy.
But there is also no safe threshold for crossing the street, for eating chocolate, for going camping or basically anything else that does not involve staying in your bubble.
FAS requires 5 DRINKS A DAY. Not 1 drink per pregnancy, not 2 drinks / week, or even 2 / day. For those of you who are you
freaked, can you please link to any diagnosis of a child with FAS whose mother was not binge drinking on a daily basis?
For those of you who are hugely phobic about alcohol and would like to avoid ALL alcohol, please note that the following beverages contain 1% alcohol so that avoiding them is more important than avoiding a few sips of wine:
* All juices, especially OJ
* Some sodas
* Many flavored coffee products
* Any liquid medicine (actually as much alcohol as vodka)
When you see your doctor telling you to avoid the above, you can start worrying about those few sips on of the PPs took of her mother's cocktail.
Anonymous
08/21/2013 23:07
Subject: Is there any objective source of information on light drinking during pregnancy?
I write this as someone who spent two hours today in a child therapist's office, learning that my adopted DD, age 7, has something called Alcohol-Related Neurological Disorder (ARND) which is part of the fetal alcohol syndrome spectrum. She has none of the facial feature and physical irregularities typically associated with FAS---in fact, she is quite pretty.
And her IQ is within average range. She has severe dyslexia. She cannot add 2+2 without counting on her fingers. She is incapable of thinking in abstractions (e.g., you have to say explicitly, "Hang your coat on the hook on the door" instead of "Put your coat away". She has ADHD. She is easily emotionally overwhelmed with sensory overload (an ability to develop a filter is another alcohol-related impairment), which leads to tantrum meltdowns reminiscent of a 4 year old in terms of the screaming and lack of emotional regulation. Because of the lack of emotional regulation, she has great difficulty making or keeping friends. Her working memory is in the 4th percentile.
And she will struggle with these issues all of her life, even though her intelligence level is normal, because certain parts of her brain have been damaged.
If I can get her to graduate from high school, and avoid substance abuse, pregnancy or getting arrested (all common secondary effects in adolescence resulting from the impulsivity characteristic of ARND kids) then I will consider myself a success as a parent.
Her biological brother, who is 1 year older, and---quite probably---was also exposed to alcohol at some levels---has none of these issues. He is quite bright, social and cheerful, with lots of friends, excellent math and reading skills, and a very good memory.
The effects of alcohol on a fetus are dependent not only on amount of alcohol consumed, but the state of the developing fetus' neurological development at the exact time of consumption. I think of it as Russian Roulette. The pregnant alcoholic has a much greater risk of damaging her baby because she's pulling that trigger more often.
But do you really want to pull that trigger at all during any stage of pregnancy in which the fetus is still neurologically developing?
And her IQ is within average range. She has severe dyslexia. She cannot add 2+2 without counting on her fingers. She is incapable of thinking in abstractions (e.g., you have to say explicitly, "Hang your coat on the hook on the door" instead of "Put your coat away". She has ADHD. She is easily emotionally overwhelmed with sensory overload (an ability to develop a filter is another alcohol-related impairment), which leads to tantrum meltdowns reminiscent of a 4 year old in terms of the screaming and lack of emotional regulation. Because of the lack of emotional regulation, she has great difficulty making or keeping friends. Her working memory is in the 4th percentile.
And she will struggle with these issues all of her life, even though her intelligence level is normal, because certain parts of her brain have been damaged.
If I can get her to graduate from high school, and avoid substance abuse, pregnancy or getting arrested (all common secondary effects in adolescence resulting from the impulsivity characteristic of ARND kids) then I will consider myself a success as a parent.
Her biological brother, who is 1 year older, and---quite probably---was also exposed to alcohol at some levels---has none of these issues. He is quite bright, social and cheerful, with lots of friends, excellent math and reading skills, and a very good memory.
The effects of alcohol on a fetus are dependent not only on amount of alcohol consumed, but the state of the developing fetus' neurological development at the exact time of consumption. I think of it as Russian Roulette. The pregnant alcoholic has a much greater risk of damaging her baby because she's pulling that trigger more often.
But do you really want to pull that trigger at all during any stage of pregnancy in which the fetus is still neurologically developing?
Anonymous
08/21/2013 22:59
Subject: Is there any objective source of information on light drinking during pregnancy?
Anonymous wrote:I just wonder if the moms who drink during pregnancies also have birth plans, agonize over what they eat, and will go overboard organic and healthy for their kids.
I can't answer for others, but I have had perhaps a total of 3 drinks this pregnancy and am not militant about avoiding alcohol. I plan on a natural birth though I am not militant about that either. Don't really have a birth plan. I am careful with what I eat but more from the nutrition standpoint; I've avoided unpasteurized or raw cheeses and deli meat (though actually I rarely eat deli meat anyway), but otherwise eat what I want with an eye to trying to have a well-rounded diet. I definitely eat too much sugar but am trying to cut back. No caffeine, although I don't really have a problem with that either; I just never developed the habit. I do not exercise enough; trying to work on that too. I do buy organic where I can, but I would choose local over organic in most cases. The only thing I have really strictly cut out due to pregnancy is changing the litter box. No question there; DH has done it since before we started TTC. I had a friend who contracted taxoplasmosis (though she did not own a cat) during her twin pregnancy. One fetus died and the other was badly affected. I guess we all change our behavior in response to anecdotes; I don't mind light drinking during pregnancy but I suppose if I knew someone who drank lightly and had an affected baby, I would think differently.
Of course, my baby isn't born yet, so G-d forbid I have done anything that would impair him. Then again I will have 18 years plus to screw him up in other ways. I know plenty of people who are "normal" but are emotionally disturbed, or can't hold a job, or complete assholes ... biological health is no guarantee of a good life.
Anonymous
08/21/2013 22:48
Subject: Is there any objective source of information on light drinking during pregnancy?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:To 22:26 - had you miscarried or had a child with a disability or delay, would you have second guessed some of your choices? Just curious since I think most of us err on the side of caution to avoid feeling any guilt should something have gone wrong.
I am not that PP but your question gets to the heart of the matter: no, I didn't avoid alcohol as some kind of talisman to ward off guilt for something that may happen in the future. That is totally irrational. Miscarriages aren't caused by alcohol anyway.
Also not that PP, but honestly there are so many things that can go wrong, and so many beyond your control -- unless it is a very clear case of FAS (or, in my cousin's case, drug dependency), it would be hard to attribute most delays to the alcohol anyway. Think of all the genetic disorders that can't be screened for or predicted. Both lupus and dyslexia run in my family. Fortunately I seem to have been spared both, but I could very well pass them on to my child. Maybe I shouldn't procreate at all since I don't have a perfect genome, but who does? It's a risk, and not one I can do anything about. Then there are other risks, like listeria, where you can take all the recommended precautions and still contract it from a surprising or unknown source. The point is, there are so many, many possibilities that can cause bad outcomes. Unless you are doing drugs, smoking, or drinking heavily, I just don't see how you can blame yourself if the baby doesn't turn out perfect. Not everything is controllable. Sometimes shit just happens, and it sucks.