Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look at colonies of ants or bees and see how they cooperate. Do they cooperate because the sweet baby Jesus told them to? No, they cooperate as a result of evolution.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Yes. This.

Bees are an example of the mindless imperative to cooperate regardless of morality.

It's when an organism becomes more intelligent, more emotionally sophisticated, that cooperation requires empathy - the desire to avoid causing pain to others, the desire to see others experience well being and joy.

In the absence of a developed sense of empathy, one might require, say, an organized religion to enforce mutually beneficial behaviors.

Yes, but bees have no concept of good and evil (I guess, I don't really know). Humans have this concept. Why? What originally dictated what is good and what is evil? To simply say that society dictates it speaks to the product, not the creator.

Again, which creator are you talking about? Have you ever taken time to read up on creator gods, besides the one you believe in? Why does that particular creator god resonate with you?

Concepts of "good" and "bad" are not inherent in nature or humans. What is inherent in humans, is a desire for order and structure - to make and create social patterns that we can predict and have greater control of. Those orders and structures obviously change depending on what society thinks is important, but we all have the inherent need to have order - though the details change as cultures change. That's why there are so many religions and gods - they're somewhat codified examples of the order and structure created in a particular socio-cultural context. But as the needs change, the details change. You never lose the need for order & structure, however - but the specificities evolve to suit new socio-cultural needs.

Where did this need for order come from? Are we born with it? Why is order important? Why is chaos not okay?

The need for order is an evolutionary mechanism - it's the same reason why we don't repeatedly touch a hot stove - predictability and having order makes our species survive. Knowing what will happen is essential for survival. The droughts, bad storms, tsunamis, were explanations that a god was angry with us and punishing us. The need to explain those phenomenon, and further control them by being good to the gods, was critical to feed communities. Of course, now we know it has nothing to do with any gods, but we still like to know so that we can plan. Planning and knowing drive us forward towards greater survival success rates.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm very glad that most local atheists have "consciences," which they listen to, and which compel them to choose good and not evil.

But you don't HAVE to do that, if there is no Creator and there is nothing more than the material world. No one is going to ultimately hold you accountable for your actions. If there is no Lawgiver, no Absolute Standard (also called God), nothing ultimately matters.

That guy in Ohio? If he hadn't gotten caught? If he had woken up one morning, raped everyone one last time before slowing torturing them to death in front of one another before eating a fine meal and fallen peacefully asleep in his warm bed before dying in his sleep? They are all just dust. He just got the evolutionary upper hand, he had the power and he wasn't afraid to use it.

That's just as ok a life choice as any other. If there is no Lawgiver.

But plenty of people who do believe in The Lawgiver do these horrible things anyway.

I would bet you $100 right now that Castro guy claims he's a Christian.

Christians doing horrible things does not mean there is no God.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look at colonies of ants or bees and see how they cooperate. Do they cooperate because the sweet baby Jesus told them to? No, they cooperate as a result of evolution.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Yes. This.

Bees are an example of the mindless imperative to cooperate regardless of morality.

It's when an organism becomes more intelligent, more emotionally sophisticated, that cooperation requires empathy - the desire to avoid causing pain to others, the desire to see others experience well being and joy.

In the absence of a developed sense of empathy, one might require, say, an organized religion to enforce mutually beneficial behaviors.

Yes, but bees have no concept of good and evil (I guess, I don't really know). Humans have this concept. Why? What originally dictated what is good and what is evil? To simply say that society dictates it speaks to the product, not the creator.

I have repeatedly answered this. I believe it is pain -> intelligence -> empathy. Have you stated why you reject this explanation?

What causes it to be painful?

In the example I gave, your nerves. As one develops more empathy and more reasoning power, your emotions. What causes emotions? Synpases. Chemicals.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Yes, but bees have no concept of good and evil (I guess, I don't really know). Humans have this concept. Why? What originally dictated what is good and what is evil? To simply say that society dictates it speaks to the product, not the creator.

Do you understand that good and evil are not constant - that different societies interpret them differently? So how is this compatible with one creator determing what they were?

Actually, they are. Can you name acts that were once totally good that are now totally evil?

Yes. Thousands. Slaughtering children to appease the rain god. Good for the Aztecs, now, not so much.

I said totally good (meaning for all mankind), not just for "some".

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm very glad that most local atheists have "consciences," which they listen to, and which compel them to choose good and not evil.

But you don't HAVE to do that, if there is no Creator and there is nothing more than the material world. No one is going to ultimately hold you accountable for your actions. If there is no Lawgiver, no Absolute Standard (also called God), nothing ultimately matters.

That guy in Ohio? If he hadn't gotten caught? If he had woken up one morning, raped everyone one last time before slowing torturing them to death in front of one another before eating a fine meal and fallen peacefully asleep in his warm bed before dying in his sleep? They are all just dust. He just got the evolutionary upper hand, he had the power and he wasn't afraid to use it.

That's just as ok a life choice as any other. If there is no Lawgiver.

But plenty of people who do believe in The Lawgiver do these horrible things anyway.

I would bet you $100 right now that Castro guy claims he's a Christian.

Good people do good things; bad people do bad things. But it takes religion to make good people do bad.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Yes, but bees have no concept of good and evil (I guess, I don't really know). Humans have this concept. Why? What originally dictated what is good and what is evil? To simply say that society dictates it speaks to the product, not the creator.

Do you understand that good and evil are not constant - that different societies interpret them differently? So how is this compatible with one creator determing what they were?

Actually, they are. Can you name acts that were once totally good that are now totally evil?

Crusades. Killing infidels. Burning witches. Once thought to be righteous acts. Encouraged by society and religion. Now abhorred.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm very glad that most local atheists have "consciences," which they listen to, and which compel them to choose good and not evil.

But you don't HAVE to do that, if there is no Creator and there is nothing more than the material world. No one is going to ultimately hold you accountable for your actions. If there is no Lawgiver, no Absolute Standard (also called God), nothing ultimately matters.

That guy in Ohio? If he hadn't gotten caught? If he had woken up one morning, raped everyone one last time before slowing torturing them to death in front of one another before eating a fine meal and fallen peacefully asleep in his warm bed before dying in his sleep? They are all just dust. He just got the evolutionary upper hand, he had the power and he wasn't afraid to use it.

That's just as ok a life choice as any other. If there is no Lawgiver.

How was he caught and stopped? It wasn't Jesus that caught him and stopped him. In fact, the Catholic religion, to name but one, has a long and illustrious history of raping children without being held accountable for their actions. So clearly religion is not going to do the job of stopping kids being raped. In fact, if religion still reigned supreme I can guarantee you a lot more kids would be being raped.

What stopped him was that we have such a thing as society, as government, and as laws. The young girl signalled for help and a neighbor intervened. The police were called and arrested him. He will be put on trial and punished. Because of society, because of our ability and willingness to cooperate and work together, and to enforce mutually advantageous rules of behavior.

You mention the laws we have. How were those laws formed? Based on what principles? If they are based on principles you don't believe in, why adhere to them or be forced to adhere to them?

If there is truly no one to hold us accountable for our actions, then ultimately there is no good or bad. Instead of doing things that are pleasing to God, we only seek to please ourselves.

Some of the most morally corrupt people I have met consider themselves "good Christians". Some of the kindest, most philanthropic people I have met are agnostic/atheist.

For me, my morals came from my mother. Her morals came from her parents and to her parents from their parents and so on. My family is Jewish, but my Mom raised me pretty much without religion and was able to instill in me good morals and values. Perhaps religion molded her, but I believe it was mostly from watching her parents do good, be kind and treat others with the same respect that they expected for themselves.

I think a lot of it is socially driven as well. I am pretty sure that the morals and values in Congo differs from what we believe to be morally acceptable here, regardless if they have religion or not.

Anonymous wrote:I'm very glad that most local atheists have "consciences," which they listen to, and which compel them to choose good and not evil.

But you don't HAVE to do that, if there is no Creator and there is nothing more than the material world. No one is going to ultimately hold you accountable for your actions. If there is no Lawgiver, no Absolute Standard (also called God), nothing ultimately matters.

That guy in Ohio? If he hadn't gotten caught? If he had woken up one morning, raped everyone one last time before slowing torturing them to death in front of one another before eating a fine meal and fallen peacefully asleep in his warm bed before dying in his sleep? They are all just dust. He just got the evolutionary upper hand, he had the power and he wasn't afraid to use it.

That's just as ok a life choice as any other. If there is no Lawgiver.

But plenty of people who do believe in The Lawgiver do these horrible things anyway.

I would bet you $100 right now that Castro guy claims he's a Christian.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look at colonies of ants or bees and see how they cooperate. Do they cooperate because the sweet baby Jesus told them to? No, they cooperate as a result of evolution.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Yes. This.

Bees are an example of the mindless imperative to cooperate regardless of morality.

It's when an organism becomes more intelligent, more emotionally sophisticated, that cooperation requires empathy - the desire to avoid causing pain to others, the desire to see others experience well being and joy.

In the absence of a developed sense of empathy, one might require, say, an organized religion to enforce mutually beneficial behaviors.

Yes, but bees have no concept of good and evil (I guess, I don't really know). Humans have this concept. Why? What originally dictated what is good and what is evil? To simply say that society dictates it speaks to the product, not the creator.

Again, which creator are you talking about? Have you ever taken time to read up on creator gods, besides the one you believe in? Why does that particular creator god resonate with you?

Concepts of "good" and "bad" are not inherent in nature or humans. What is inherent in humans, is a desire for order and structure - to make and create social patterns that we can predict and have greater control of. Those orders and structures obviously change depending on what society thinks is important, but we all have the inherent need to have order - though the details change as cultures change. That's why there are so many religions and gods - they're somewhat codified examples of the order and structure created in a particular socio-cultural context. But as the needs change, the details change. You never lose the need for order & structure, however - but the specificities evolve to suit new socio-cultural needs.

Where did this need for order come from? Are we born with it? Why is order important? Why is chaos not okay?

It's an evolutionary trait. And how lucky humans are to have it! Like creativity, language, and love, it's just part of what makes humans special.

Anonymous wrote:Do you feel every person who has claimed to have a life after death/near death experience or to have seen a spirit is not telling the truth? I do mean this as a serious question. I wonder about this especially when a loved one dies. I think many of us hold on to religion because we don't want to be separated from those we love most.

I understand this fear, having lost some of my most important loved ones. But personally, it compels me to make the most of this life with those loved ones, because I believe this is all there is. This is where it counts. This is where it matters. Once it's done, it's done. There are no do-overs.

Yes, I believe those who have seen "spirits" or had a "near death experience" are either not being truthful, or are misunderstanding the chemistry of their own brains. There are studies that report a massive hormone surge as the brain dies - it's like the body's natural shutdown mechanism, to make death more bearable and pain-free. The surge of things like serotonin makes the mind do strange things, even see strange things, but it's all within our own minds. It's amazing how people's "near death experiences" reports are all conditioned to their own culture and belief system - but it make sense, because they exist only insofar as their own brain hormones condition their experiences.

Anonymous wrote:

Where did this need for order come from? Are we born with it? Why is order important? Why is chaos not okay?

Because a predisposition to order conferred evolutionary advantage, whereas chaos did not.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look at colonies of ants or bees and see how they cooperate. Do they cooperate because the sweet baby Jesus told them to? No, they cooperate as a result of evolution.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Yes. This.

Bees are an example of the mindless imperative to cooperate regardless of morality.

It's when an organism becomes more intelligent, more emotionally sophisticated, that cooperation requires empathy - the desire to avoid causing pain to others, the desire to see others experience well being and joy.

In the absence of a developed sense of empathy, one might require, say, an organized religion to enforce mutually beneficial behaviors.

Yes, but bees have no concept of good and evil (I guess, I don't really know). Humans have this concept. Why? What originally dictated what is good and what is evil? To simply say that society dictates it speaks to the product, not the creator.

We have explained this. Certain behaviors arise by chance as a result of mutation. If these behaviors confer advantages then they tend to proliferate in subsequent generations. The concept of good and bad conferred advantages, so they proliferated in subsequent generations, including all our ancestors.

So essentially you are saying that good/evil is the result of a mutation?

Our concepts of good and bad are the results of mutations combined with their actions with the environment. Every behavior is the result of a mutation. It is the process that has led us to be who we are.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look at colonies of ants or bees and see how they cooperate. Do they cooperate because the sweet baby Jesus told them to? No, they cooperate as a result of evolution.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Yes. This.

Bees are an example of the mindless imperative to cooperate regardless of morality.

It's when an organism becomes more intelligent, more emotionally sophisticated, that cooperation requires empathy - the desire to avoid causing pain to others, the desire to see others experience well being and joy.

In the absence of a developed sense of empathy, one might require, say, an organized religion to enforce mutually beneficial behaviors.

Yes, but bees have no concept of good and evil (I guess, I don't really know). Humans have this concept. Why? What originally dictated what is good and what is evil? To simply say that society dictates it speaks to the product, not the creator.

Again, which creator are you talking about? Have you ever taken time to read up on creator gods, besides the one you believe in? Why does that particular creator god resonate with you?

Concepts of "good" and "bad" are not inherent in nature or humans. What is inherent in humans, is a desire for order and structure - to make and create social patterns that we can predict and have greater control of. Those orders and structures obviously change depending on what society thinks is important, but we all have the inherent need to have order - though the details change as cultures change. That's why there are so many religions and gods - they're somewhat codified examples of the order and structure created in a particular socio-cultural context. But as the needs change, the details change. You never lose the need for order & structure, however - but the specificities evolve to suit new socio-cultural needs.

Where did this need for order come from? Are we born with it? Why is order important? Why is chaos not okay?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Yes, but bees have no concept of good and evil (I guess, I don't really know). Humans have this concept. Why? What originally dictated what is good and what is evil? To simply say that society dictates it speaks to the product, not the creator.

Do you understand that good and evil are not constant - that different societies interpret them differently? So how is this compatible with one creator determing what they were?

Actually, they are. Can you name acts that were once totally good that are now totally evil?

Yes. Thousands. Slaughtering children to appease the rain god. Good for the Aztecs, now, not so much.