Anonymous wrote:Not so fast, PP. Truly kind people do not judge. And normal people recognize that parenting isn't a competitive sport.

If you don't judge the parent who is in your home, watching her kid swing from the chandelier (or hit, or snatch), and doing nothing about it, you might be brain-dead. If that's what you mean by "truly kind" (hey, brain dead people can't be mean!) then... ok... I guess.

OP, I also have one of these situations. Dear lovely friend, horrid spoiled brat of a daughter. Still tantruming (with fists and feet and bat-sonor screeches) in kindergarten, and the dear lovely friend just looks on with concern, or else tries to bribe the kid to behave with toys and candy and whatnot. It sets my teeth on edge. So I see my friend for fun evenings out, while our children are home with their dads. There is no way that I could EVER tell her that her beloved daughter is a brat and that it's her (the mother's) fault. No way.

OP here. Of course I try other things before physically taking the toy out of a kid's hand, but I didn't bother to explain that because it was not relevant and my post was already super-long. Bottom line, though, if the "gentler" methods don't work and my child refuses to return something he has taken from another child, I'm not going to let him just keep it, with no consequences. Ultimtaely, that's the difference between my friend and me.

As I said, though, I'm not perfect, and I'm always willing to learn. What exactly is the right thing to do when you have exhausted all attempts at logical discussion, redirecting, and even threats, and your child won't give back a toy he has blatantly grabbed from another kid's hand while the other kid was playing with it, and the other kid is crying and also refuses to be redirected?

Also, I get that I might come across as helicoptering, but honestly I don't get involved with toy disputes unless I saw it happen, one child is extremely upset, and it is an ongoing pattern with the same kid. I do believe in letting them try to work it out themselves as much as possible, but if I didn't get involved in that situation, aren't I just teaching my child that it's OK to take a toy from another child as long as she can get away with it?

We had some friends come over with their 3 y/o when our DS was just over a year. The 3 year old kept grabbing toys from DS. The parents were ignoring it, so my DH said something along the lines of "I think the baby was playing with that. When he's done, you can have a turn." The 3 y/o kept up the behavior until *finally* one of the parents said "X, share the toy with the baby." The 3 y/o took the toy and threw it at my son's head. I was so shocked I was expecting the parents to correct him but all they did was say "good sharing!" Huh? How is it good sharing to throw a toy at another child in anger? The parents just laughed it off and said something along the lines of "X knows he can get away with more when the kids are smaller than him. He never tries to mess with bigger kids." Again, huh? I guess by that logic, I could throw toys at the 3 y/o since I'm bigger and can get away with it? We didn't say anything since I agree with others that you can't really criticize someone else's style. We haven't had them over since though. If we socialize, it's outside of a playdate. I think PP's gave great advice about framing it in terms of keeping consistent rules for your DD.

Anonymous wrote:The bratty-ist Tweens I know were raised by "perfect" parents who sat on them and were so strict that their kids were quick to step out of line and take risks as soon as their parents weren't around. And let's think back to all the girls we knew in hs or college who got pregnant unexpectedly....they all came from super strict houses with crazy moms, remember?

You're speaking in extremes only. There is a middle ground between never saying anything to correct your kid and dragging a kid around on a leash.

Those who say they judge the less tend to be the ones who judge the most. Anyone who says they don't judge is a liar.

Anonymous wrote:

Also, when I see my DD take something out of another child's hand, I will immediately force her to give it back to the other child and wait her turn. When Amy's DD grabs something from my DD -- which is constantly -- Amy will plead and cajole her DD to give it back, but if her DD chooses not to give it up, she keeps it. I always try to redirect my DD, but at some point I start to feel bad not sticking up for her. One time this happened while Amy was out of the room, and I took the thing out of Amy's DD's hand, exactly as I would do for my DD, and Amy's DD started screaming and took another toy and threw it hard at my DD's head. It missed, fortunately. Amy came in as her DD was throwing the car and she said something along the lines of, sweetie, that's not nice. And that was it. If my kid had done that she would be in time-out or the playdate would end.

So to teach your child not to grab things from other kids, you grab it from her hands and tell her "don't grab things from other kids! Share!"

OP before you start going on about how bad other people's parenting skills are, you need to realize your own are pretty bad.

Three is about the age when parenting style really start to differ. This friendship probably won't make it.

Anonymous wrote:Agree there is no way to save the friendship. Cut your losses now.

+1

This is probably advice I should have taken six years ago. It would have been much easier when they were younger.

Agree there is no way to save the friendship. Cut your losses now.

OP, I'm sorry! I've had a friend who's son slapped my daughter across the face right in front of me and his mother and she did NOTHING. I was so taken aback I didn't say anything and really wish I did. I find it hard to 'parent' other people's kids in front of the parents themselves. If the parent is not there, I have no problem redirecting them, politely correcting them but feel when the other mother is there in a one on one situation to correct their child. I think in part it's because when I have 'tried to help' I have had mom's lash out at me. For example, at movement class,2 year old is on top of newborn, crushing the child and then taking a blanket and putting it over newborns head and trying to poke her eyes. I walk over and try to get the 2 year old to come dance with me and off the baby and the blanket away. The mother rushes over to say the 2 year old is fine and not doing anything wrong- he does this 'all the time' at home. She then came back to me two more times to scold me and I didn't say no to the child, didn't touch the child and was just concerned for the newborn! All the moms hated this kid since he tackled, hit kids with instruments and did all this horrible behavior as the mom just sat and watched. It was horrible and several people stopped going to the class because of that child.

Unfortunately, I think you will find a lot of "Amy's" out there and she will learn when she stops getting birthday invites/playdates that she has to look in the mirror and figure out why. If I were blatantly asked what's going on, I would be honest and just say you aren't sure the kids are playing well together right now so you'll have to revisit playdates at a later time.

It sucks, you aren't alone and I think you're being a good mom to 'weed' out the bad apples. Young kids are easily influenced and it's hard enough keeping up with the things they come home from preschool with.

Good luck!

Anonymous wrote:There's no way to save the friendship. I'm sorry OP. It stinks.

This sums it up. Been there, done that--a few times, in fact. It sucks, but that's the way it is, and it's probably better for your child in the long run to cut ties.

Anonymous wrote:OP, I'm not sure I understand your question/post. Are you saying you've already decided to end the friendship and are asking ways to do that? Or are you looking for ways to salvage the friendship and playdates?

If it's the latter, I can offer some advice - I (like a pp menioned) have a very ADHD boy and I didn't really know how to parent him. He's smart and stubborn and had low impulse control (kind of sounds like Amy's dd) and I was overwhelmed. Anyway, when friends would gently correct my kid, I sometimes would pick up on that and follow through the same way but other times, I'd make excuses (like Amy) not really realizing the effect it was having on the other kid/parent. So, with that background, I can offer you suggestions if you want to try a few more times to keep the playdates and friend.

first, you can talk to Amy, but make it about your ds and your parenting and ask her to help. Like, the fridge example. correct Amy's dd, but then say to Amy, "Amy, if it's okay with you, I'd like to give the kids the same rule. It's so hard for [DS] to behave when his friend is doing something he's not allowed to do in front of him. Would you mind if we told them both that they can't bang the fridge? It would really help me with [DS]." And with the toys, the same thing, "Amy, I'm trying to teach [DS] about sharing these days. During this playdate can we have the kids practice sharing instead of grabbing whatever toy they want? It would really help me with [DS]"

She might look at that as an opportunity to teach her dd about sharing or rules or whatever as well.

If you are looking for ways to end the friendship, I'd try to be as honest as possible while still being polite and with no judgment (it doesn't sound like you're judging anyway). But again, I'd make it about you and your parenting and kid. Say something like, "I'd love to get together with you, but it's become really hard on [DS] when I instill my rules on him and [DD] has a different set of rules during the playdate. At this age, he doesn't get that there's different sets of rules for different kids, so he's often frustrated and sad during/after our playdates. But, if you'd like to get together just us for a drink, I'd love to."

That way, she understands why and if she's committed to the playdate, she might come up with a creative solution. good luck, OP. It doesn't sound like your judgy or trying to "fix" your friend, which is really good and will show through your communications - whichever way you decide to go.

PP here (not OP). This is REALLY great advice and super helpful. Thank you!

OP, I'm not sure I understand your question/post. Are you saying you've already decided to end the friendship and are asking ways to do that? Or are you looking for ways to salvage the friendship and playdates?

If it's the latter, I can offer some advice - I (like a pp menioned) have a very ADHD boy and I didn't really know how to parent him. He's smart and stubborn and had low impulse control (kind of sounds like Amy's dd) and I was overwhelmed. Anyway, when friends would gently correct my kid, I sometimes would pick up on that and follow through the same way but other times, I'd make excuses (like Amy) not really realizing the effect it was having on the other kid/parent. So, with that background, I can offer you suggestions if you want to try a few more times to keep the playdates and friend.

first, you can talk to Amy, but make it about your ds and your parenting and ask her to help. Like, the fridge example. correct Amy's dd, but then say to Amy, "Amy, if it's okay with you, I'd like to give the kids the same rule. It's so hard for [DS] to behave when his friend is doing something he's not allowed to do in front of him. Would you mind if we told them both that they can't bang the fridge? It would really help me with [DS]." And with the toys, the same thing, "Amy, I'm trying to teach [DS] about sharing these days. During this playdate can we have the kids practice sharing instead of grabbing whatever toy they want? It would really help me with [DS]"

She might look at that as an opportunity to teach her dd about sharing or rules or whatever as well.

If you are looking for ways to end the friendship, I'd try to be as honest as possible while still being polite and with no judgment (it doesn't sound like you're judging anyway). But again, I'd make it about you and your parenting and kid. Say something like, "I'd love to get together with you, but it's become really hard on [DS] when I instill my rules on him and [DD] has a different set of rules during the playdate. At this age, he doesn't get that there's different sets of rules for different kids, so he's often frustrated and sad during/after our playdates. But, if you'd like to get together just us for a drink, I'd love to."

That way, she understands why and if she's committed to the playdate, she might come up with a creative solution. good luck, OP. It doesn't sound like your judgy or trying to "fix" your friend, which is really good and will show through your communications - whichever way you decide to go.

I have a friend like this, although, OP, I do things differently than you. (E.g., at 3 years old, I work more with my daughter on how to handle somebody grabbing something out of her hand-- I would never grab something out of a child's hand to teach "no grabbing.") What made me stop inviting her over with her daughter was that my own daughter started saying she didn't want to play with the girl anymore, and whenever I told my daughter they were coming over, she would cry and say "NO! I don't like 'Isabella'! I don't want her to come over! Please, Mommy." So, OP, if your daughter is having fun with this girl but it's just not fun for you, I think 3 years old is a good age for you to say, "Hey! Your daughter is comfortable here-- we'd love to have a drop-off playdate. You go enjoy some free time and I'll watch the girls." The other alternative is that you discipline the other girl in your house as you would your own daughter, and see if your friend gets upset or wants to end the friendship. I actually felt sorry for my friend who was like that-- it was really sad to see, because she tried to discipline her daughter, but the instant she got refusal or resistance (a tantrum!) she caved-- or, if she tried not to cave, she ultimately did once her daughter threw a big enough tantrum.

Totally understandable if you no longer like or want to spend time with the friend, but I viewed kids like this as a good opportunity to help my daughter learn her own coping skills in the safety of our own house that I am sure she is going to need dealing with similarly "rogue" kids in preschool, elementary school, and beyond. It's also given us a good opportunity to have discussions-- she'll ask, after they leave, "Why didn't 'Isabella' listen to you when you told her we don't throw the [plastic] bowling ball?" and the conversations we have kind of give me the opportunity to see what's going on in her own head. Since she has always been the Good Girl, it also gives her a chance to experiment with what will happen if she acts like "Isabella"-- everyone else's worse nightmare, I know, from the SAHMs I talk to who say "Oh, gosh, I am so afraid of my little angel learning bad behaviors from the other preschoolers." But these experiments actually, I believe, help her develop her sense of self and right and wrong and so forth, and being at the receiving end of another kid's being naughty helps her understand what it feels like in a very good, preventive way. (Since we talk about it, and I protect her from physical harm.) Life is unfair and unjust, and I can't always prevent another kid grabbing her toy, but I can be there to comfort her. If you just don't like this friend or can't stand 3 year old defiance, that's one thing. But I wouldn't end the friendship if this is an issue of protecting your daughter. GL!

Anonymous wrote:
Also, when I see my DD take something out of another child's hand, I will immediately force her to give it back to the other child and wait her turn. When Amy's DD grabs something from my DD -- which is constantly -- Amy will plead and cajole her DD to give it back, but if her DD chooses not to give it up, she keeps it. I always try to redirect my DD, but at some point I start to feel bad not sticking up for her. One time this happened while Amy was out of the room, and I took the thing out of Amy's DD's hand, exactly as I would do for my DD, and Amy's DD started screaming and took another toy and threw it hard at my DD's head. It missed, fortunately. Amy came in as her DD was throwing the car and she said something along the lines of, sweetie, that's not nice. And that was it. If my kid had done that she would be in time-out or the playdate would end.

OP, I don't know whether you'll try to salvage this friendship or not, but

YOU ABSOLUTELY SHOULD NOT BE DOING THIS.

At 3, you need to butt out and let the children work out who is playing with what toy when. You can remind them to share and set up playdates with share-able toys (blocks, trains, cars, tea set, kitchen set, etc), but you should NOT, at age 3, be hovering and playing toy referee.