Anonymous wrote:The only extreme ones I see here are the wacky anti-religionists. We are very liberal Episcopalians. We don't as a rule say grace before dinner. When its our turn to host a larger gathering, my midwestern Methodist friends are likely to initiate a quick grace before dinner is served. No one thinks anything of it because we're "family" and that's what that branch of the "family" does. Everyone bows their heads and says Amen. I've been in other gatherings with people from other religions and when a similar situation arises, I bow my head and say Amen. Never occurs to me to feel offended, oppressed, or anything else.

The poor FIL was under the impression he was having dinner with his family. He didn't try to proselytize anyone or call anyone out for being a heathen or infidel.

I'm generally liberal, but right now I tend to agree with the complaint that liberals can be the most intolerant of all if you don't agree with their particular way of doing things.

+1

The only extreme ones I see here are the wacky anti-religionists. We are very liberal Episcopalians. We don't as a rule say grace before dinner. When its our turn to host a larger gathering, my midwestern Methodist friends are likely to initiate a quick grace before dinner is served. No one thinks anything of it because we're "family" and that's what that branch of the "family" does. Everyone bows their heads and says Amen. I've been in other gatherings with people from other religions and when a similar situation arises, I bow my head and say Amen. Never occurs to me to feel offended, oppressed, or anything else.

The poor FIL was under the impression he was having dinner with his family. He didn't try to proselytize anyone or call anyone out for being a heathen or infidel.

I'm generally liberal, but right now I tend to agree with the complaint that liberals can be the most intolerant of all if you don't agree with their particular way of doing things.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here's what I don't get: you say that he usurped your role as host because it was your job to offer a prayer. Well, you DIDN'T and weren't going to. So it seems like you are just mad that there was a prayer at all, rather than the hosting thing. I still find it so strange that anyone finds a pre-dinner prayer weird or offensive. I imagine this is common in many religions besides Christianity, too.

Why is this so hard to understand? I don't mind other people praying, what I resent is being roped in to it.

I don't believe in your god, and I don't want to pray to him. Please respect that.

I respect that in a public setting. At someone's home for Christmas dinner, which you knowingly and willingly attended, are you saying that you'd be offended if they said a prayer? I agree, you shouldn't be required to hold hands and say Amen, Praise the Lord(!), but you'd really be offended by the actual saying of grace itself?

The entire point is that the "someone" in question was not, in fact, interested in saying a prayer. Their table (and guests) was hijacked by this deeply in-Christian FIL. But never mind the details, in some whacked out America Christian's minds, they're always the victim.

I agree with the OP on her point (I'm 8:35). I didn't think 8:37 was OP, and 8:37 seemed to be objecting to having to sit through any prayer at all, regardless of who delivered it. Maybe I was wrong in how I read that?

No, I totally disagree. OP should have graciously sat back, accepted the gesture, and thanked the FIL afterwards. Just as FIL would have done if OP had suddenly announced that she was going to read a passage from Dawkins during dinner at the FIL's house. After all, hijacking a table full of dinner companions with whatever religious rituals you like to perform is the height of good manners, and extremely Christ-like.

Or even better, insist that everyone stand up and perform the following yoga poses before partaking of the meal.

http://thejoyofyoga.blogspot.com/2009/11/happy-thanksgiving.html

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here's what I don't get: you say that he usurped your role as host because it was your job to offer a prayer. Well, you DIDN'T and weren't going to. So it seems like you are just mad that there was a prayer at all, rather than the hosting thing. I still find it so strange that anyone finds a pre-dinner prayer weird or offensive. I imagine this is common in many religions besides Christianity, too.

Why is this so hard to understand? I don't mind other people praying, what I resent is being roped in to it.

I don't believe in your god, and I don't want to pray to him. Please respect that.

I respect that in a public setting. At someone's home for Christmas dinner, which you knowingly and willingly attended, are you saying that you'd be offended if they said a prayer? I agree, you shouldn't be required to hold hands and say Amen, Praise the Lord(!), but you'd really be offended by the actual saying of grace itself?

The entire point is that the "someone" in question was not, in fact, interested in saying a prayer. Their table (and guests) was hijacked by this deeply in-Christian FIL. But never mind the details, in some whacked out America Christian's minds, they're always the victim.

Anonymous wrote:Here's what I don't get: you say that he usurped your role as host because it was your job to offer a prayer. Well, you DIDN'T and weren't going to. So it seems like you are just mad that there was a prayer at all, rather than the hosting thing. I still find it so strange that anyone finds a pre-dinner prayer weird or offensive. I imagine this is common in many religions besides Christianity, too.

Since you don't "get" it, I'll explain it slowly to you: when you, as a dinner guest in someone else's home, hijack the table for your preferred religious/social ritual, you are being a boorish piece of shit--regardless of what your preferred religious/social ritual might be.

If you want to compel your table-mates to hold hands and say a Christian prayer, ask your host first.

This kind of behavior is arrogant, reeks of "assumed privilege", and is also deeply un-Christian. I'll assume your FIL is a right-wing Christianist type, given that they tend to care less about actually following the example of Christ rather than about impressing "libtards and Jews" with their ostentatious religiosity.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here's what I don't get: you say that he usurped your role as host because it was your job to offer a prayer. Well, you DIDN'T and weren't going to. So it seems like you are just mad that there was a prayer at all, rather than the hosting thing. I still find it so strange that anyone finds a pre-dinner prayer weird or offensive. I imagine this is common in many religions besides Christianity, too.

Why is this so hard to understand? I don't mind other people praying, what I resent is being roped in to it.

I don't believe in your god, and I don't want to pray to him. Please respect that.

I respect that in a public setting. At someone's home for Christmas dinner, which you knowingly and willingly attended, are you saying that you'd be offended if they said a prayer? I agree, you shouldn't be required to hold hands and say Amen, Praise the Lord(!), but you'd really be offended by the actual saying of grace itself?

Anonymous wrote:Here's what I don't get: you say that he usurped your role as host because it was your job to offer a prayer. Well, you DIDN'T and weren't going to. So it seems like you are just mad that there was a prayer at all, rather than the hosting thing. I still find it so strange that anyone finds a pre-dinner prayer weird or offensive. I imagine this is common in many religions besides Christianity, too.

Why is this so hard to understand? I don't mind other people praying, what I resent is being roped in to it.

I don't believe in your god, and I don't want to pray to him. Please respect that.

Anonymous wrote:As a Jewish guest, not a big deal to me. Just a moment of Christmas dinner.

But as a hostess I can see that you need to sort this out for the future with your FIL.

+1, but Catholic not Jewish.

(as an aside, I'm not big on holding hands during grace, but would do it at someone's house if that was their family's custom, regardless of their religion)

Here's what I don't get: you say that he usurped your role as host because it was your job to offer a prayer. Well, you DIDN'T and weren't going to. So it seems like you are just mad that there was a prayer at all, rather than the hosting thing. I still find it so strange that anyone finds a pre-dinner prayer weird or offensive. I imagine this is common in many religions besides Christianity, too.

Not to go out of my way to defend the FIL, but perhaps he felt that as the eldest male in the home, the onus was on him to say grace? Maybe he is one of those people who still thinks of his adult children as "kids" and has some control issues (still annoying). I would definitely not make a big deal of this nonetheless.

I hate being forced to participate in a religious grace, and I hate having to hold hands with other people during grace. Especially right before eating, when I'll be touching my food. But less neurotically and more importantly, it's obnoxious to have someone foist their religion and religious rituals on you. And OP's FIL was obnoxious to do this, in what sounds like a very over-the-top way that was insensitive to the beliefs or preferences of the other guests. FIL is not the host, it is not his home, and he should not usurp that role and thereby infantilize his children nor make their guests uncomfortable.

Anonymous wrote:Incredibly rude. If it was at their house, you would have to deal with it, but it was not his place to do that at your house.

No, I totally disagree. OP should have graciously sat back, accepted the gesture, and thanked the FIL afterwards. Just as FIL would have done if OP had suddenly announced that she was going to read a passage from Dawkins during dinner at the FIL's house. After all, hijacking a table full of dinner companions with whatever religious rituals you like to perform is the height of good manners, and extremely Christ-like.

It's no big deal.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

At big family meals, that is what we do as well. If my son married someone who took offense, then I would give her the same advice- excuse yourself, step back, or stand there looking stupid.

at your DIL's house? Seriously?

Total lack of appropriate boundaries. You shouldn't expect to foist your "grace" on others when it isn't your party and it isn't your house. Why don't you excuse yourself and go to another room to say your prayers before coming back to the table to eat.

Because that doesn't make sense, especially at a religious gathering. Furthermore its really not necessary as most people have the sense to just stand there as they realize how foolish they would look kicking and screaming like a toddler over a prayer.

You sound like an idiot father in law. Good luck having any relationship with your grandkids.