Anonymous
11/22/2012 19:05
Subject: Re:Will I regret not doing "Santa"?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I can't tell from your post, but do you actually celebrate Christmas? If you don't believe in God, yet celebrate Christmas, I don't see how adding Santa to the mix is so terrible.
These are contradictory positions. You know this, right? Christmas is a celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ. It's not a secular holiday. It takes some really serious cognitive dissonance to profess no belief in God and then celebrate Christmas. A belief that Jesus is the son of God is the baseline for all of this, even the sillier secular traditions that go along with it (and which I see no harm in). You really can't cherrypick this stuff.
Of course I realize this. I just find it ironic that OP celebrates Christmas, yet has a problem with Santa. If she's going to introduce a holiday whose religious foundation she doesn't believe in, what's so bad about adding Santa?
Anonymous
11/22/2012 19:04
Subject: Re:Will I regret not doing "Santa"?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
I am simply pointing out that it's really weird to celebrate the traditions that are hallmarks of the faith and not share a fundamental belief in what drives the holiday in the first place. Maybe it's just a form of being a lemming who lacks critical thinking skills and going along to get along, but it's tremendously inconsistent. But I find it appalling that a self-professed "atheist" in particular would celebrate. This is not some anthropological thing, where you're in a strange land and experiencing some local custom, a "when in Rome" situation. Have some conviction in your beliefs. If you don't believe in God, why celebrate a holiday that is built around the birth of his Son?
I'm perfectly comfortable celebrating Christmas. I believe in family and kindness and feasting and presents and having a nice party. I don't believe in Jesus. I tell my children exactly that. I also tell them that Santa Claus is just a fun game that parents play with kids.
I'm sorry that celebrating Christmas without a belief in Christ is threatening to you. However, Christians don't have first or only claim to a winter solstice holiday. The roots of the Christmas holiday are pagan, and as currently celebrated it's a pagan/Christian amalgamation. Christmas trees owe their existence to the use of evergreens in pre-Christian winter rites to symbolize eternal life. Wreaths also symbolize eternal life in multiple pagan traditions. Yule was a pagan holiday for feasting. Christians celebrate Christmas on December 25, because it was the Roman holiday celebrating the birthday of Sol Invictus, a Roman sun god. Santa is a kindly replacement for Krampus. Diwali is an Indian religious holiday in December. Hannukah is a Jewish religious holiday in December. Hogmany is a pagan Gaelic New Year's holiday.
It just an excuse to throw a party, buy some presents, and have a nice meal. We don't go to church or put a creche or listen to religious music or sing religious music or decorate with angels or Santas. The Christian content in our holiday is pretty much zero.
If I call it a Winter Solstice celebration, would you feel better?
Happy holidays!
It's not threatening to me. I'm just genuinely perplexed. If you want to play a game, why not do it in May or something? Why hijack a religious tradition? Why confuse your children so?
The roots of Christmas as most certainly NOT pagan. Some pagan traditions have been appropriated, but the root of "Christmas" is a celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ, even if it did, in fact, happen on a date other than Dec. 25; we don't celebrate Presidents Day on the same day Washington and Lincoln were born, either.
If it's winter solstice, fine. But lose the Christmas tree, the gifts, the Santa, and the celebration on Dec. 25 proper. Do it on the 22nd by howling at the moon or something.
But as it is, you sound like a very confused individual with no actual personal convictions whatsoever, and it's a real shame that you're raising your children to be that way, too.
You do know Jesus was born in the winter right? And that the Christmas tree is not part of your religious holiday? Or are you just not well informed about Christianity?
Anonymous
11/22/2012 17:55
Subject: Re:Will I regret not doing "Santa"?
If you're worried that you might regret doing or not doing something, you probably will. We're atheist but still celebrate Christmas because it's the one day of the year that feels magical and that feels like peace on earth and goodwill to men and all that nice stuff could actually happen.
The month-long excitement of Santa was such a fun time in my childhood and I love watching my kids anticipate it. Your child is only young once, let him have that magic.
The month-long excitement of Santa was such a fun time in my childhood and I love watching my kids anticipate it. Your child is only young once, let him have that magic.
Anonymous
11/22/2012 17:54
Subject: Re:Will I regret not doing "Santa"?
Maybe she is afraid you are an agent of Satan and will tempt the weak into walking the non-righteous path? Basically, doing evil, which you know is against the Google motto and all.
Anonymous
11/22/2012 17:50
Subject: Re:Will I regret not doing "Santa"?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
I am simply pointing out that it's really weird to celebrate the traditions that are hallmarks of the faith and not share a fundamental belief in what drives the holiday in the first place. Maybe it's just a form of being a lemming who lacks critical thinking skills and going along to get along, but it's tremendously inconsistent. But I find it appalling that a self-professed "atheist" in particular would celebrate. This is not some anthropological thing, where you're in a strange land and experiencing some local custom, a "when in Rome" situation. Have some conviction in your beliefs. If you don't believe in God, why celebrate a holiday that is built around the birth of his Son?
I'm perfectly comfortable celebrating Christmas. I believe in family and kindness and feasting and presents and having a nice party. I don't believe in Jesus. I tell my children exactly that. I also tell them that Santa Claus is just a fun game that parents play with kids.
I'm sorry that celebrating Christmas without a belief in Christ is threatening to you. However, Christians don't have first or only claim to a winter solstice holiday. The roots of the Christmas holiday are pagan, and as currently celebrated it's a pagan/Christian amalgamation. Christmas trees owe their existence to the use of evergreens in pre-Christian winter rites to symbolize eternal life. Wreaths also symbolize eternal life in multiple pagan traditions. Yule was a pagan holiday for feasting. Christians celebrate Christmas on December 25, because it was the Roman holiday celebrating the birthday of Sol Invictus, a Roman sun god. Santa is a kindly replacement for Krampus. Diwali is an Indian religious holiday in December. Hannukah is a Jewish religious holiday in December. Hogmany is a pagan Gaelic New Year's holiday.
It just an excuse to throw a party, buy some presents, and have a nice meal. We don't go to church or put a creche or listen to religious music or sing religious music or decorate with angels or Santas. The Christian content in our holiday is pretty much zero.
If I call it a Winter Solstice celebration, would you feel better?
Happy holidays!
It's not threatening to me. I'm just genuinely perplexed. If you want to play a game, why not do it in May or something? Why hijack a religious tradition? Why confuse your children so?
The roots of Christmas as most certainly NOT pagan. Some pagan traditions have been appropriated, but the root of "Christmas" is a celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ, even if it did, in fact, happen on a date other than Dec. 25; we don't celebrate Presidents Day on the same day Washington and Lincoln were born, either.
If it's winter solstice, fine. But lose the Christmas tree, the gifts, the Santa, and the celebration on Dec. 25 proper. Do it on the 22nd by howling at the moon or something.
But as it is, you sound like a very confused individual with no actual personal convictions whatsoever, and it's a real shame that you're raising your children to be that way, too.
I don't see how my family celebrates the winter holidays should matter to you in the slightest Are you afraid that if I can have Christmas without Christ, I might tempt other people away from the church? Are you scared that if my kids get presents at Christmas, they might tell your kids that they don't have to do the Jesus thing in order to get presents? Why does this matter to you?
Why is this reducing you to ad hominem attacks? Why is atheism so threatening to you if you are SURE that you have the correct belief system?
Anonymous
11/22/2012 17:41
Subject: Re:Will I regret not doing "Santa"?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
I am simply pointing out that it's really weird to celebrate the traditions that are hallmarks of the faith and not share a fundamental belief in what drives the holiday in the first place. Maybe it's just a form of being a lemming who lacks critical thinking skills and going along to get along, but it's tremendously inconsistent. But I find it appalling that a self-professed "atheist" in particular would celebrate. This is not some anthropological thing, where you're in a strange land and experiencing some local custom, a "when in Rome" situation. Have some conviction in your beliefs. If you don't believe in God, why celebrate a holiday that is built around the birth of his Son?
I'm perfectly comfortable celebrating Christmas. I believe in family and kindness and feasting and presents and having a nice party. I don't believe in Jesus. I tell my children exactly that. I also tell them that Santa Claus is just a fun game that parents play with kids.
I'm sorry that celebrating Christmas without a belief in Christ is threatening to you. However, Christians don't have first or only claim to a winter solstice holiday. The roots of the Christmas holiday are pagan, and as currently celebrated it's a pagan/Christian amalgamation. Christmas trees owe their existence to the use of evergreens in pre-Christian winter rites to symbolize eternal life. Wreaths also symbolize eternal life in multiple pagan traditions. Yule was a pagan holiday for feasting. Christians celebrate Christmas on December 25, because it was the Roman holiday celebrating the birthday of Sol Invictus, a Roman sun god. Santa is a kindly replacement for Krampus. Diwali is an Indian religious holiday in December. Hannukah is a Jewish religious holiday in December. Hogmany is a pagan Gaelic New Year's holiday.
It just an excuse to throw a party, buy some presents, and have a nice meal. We don't go to church or put a creche or listen to religious music or sing religious music or decorate with angels or Santas. The Christian content in our holiday is pretty much zero.
If I call it a Winter Solstice celebration, would you feel better?
Happy holidays!
It's not threatening to me. I'm just genuinely perplexed. If you want to play a game, why not do it in May or something? Why hijack a religious tradition? Why confuse your children so?
The roots of Christmas as most certainly NOT pagan. Some pagan traditions have been appropriated, but the root of "Christmas" is a celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ, even if it did, in fact, happen on a date other than Dec. 25; we don't celebrate Presidents Day on the same day Washington and Lincoln were born, either.
If it's winter solstice, fine. But lose the Christmas tree, the gifts, the Santa, and the celebration on Dec. 25 proper. Do it on the 22nd by howling at the moon or something.
But as it is, you sound like a very confused individual with no actual personal convictions whatsoever, and it's a real shame that you're raising your children to be that way, too.
Anonymous
11/22/2012 17:39
Subject: Re:Will I regret not doing "Santa"?
Do the religious PPs celebrate or in any way participate in Halloween?
Anonymous
11/22/2012 17:30
Subject: Will I regret not doing "Santa"?
Reminds me of biebers mum who told him there was no Santa but not to spoil it for others. She said she felt if she lied about Santa he wouldn't believe her about Jesus. Damn.
Anonymous
11/22/2012 17:23
Subject: Re:Will I regret not doing "Santa"?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I can't tell from your post, but do you actually celebrate Christmas? If you don't believe in God, yet celebrate Christmas, I don't see how adding Santa to the mix is so terrible.
These are contradictory positions. You know this, right? Christmas is a celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ. It's not a secular holiday. It takes some really serious cognitive dissonance to profess no belief in God and then celebrate Christmas. A belief that Jesus is the son of God is the baseline for all of this, even the sillier secular traditions that go along with it (and which I see no harm in). You really can't cherrypick this stuff.
To the second poster -- apparently plenty of Americans celebrate Xmas (95%), but don't go to church on Xmas eve or Xmas day (62% go to church). So, about 33% of Americans celebrate Xmas in some way without going to church. If you think Xmas is primarily a religious holiday, you are naive. Xmas, in practice, is primarily a commercial season... especially the santa aspect.
The secular has far overtaken the religious.
Especially the "Elf on the Shelf" thing. This is a load of commercial crap created to sell books and dolls.
This is America, materialism and consumerism are our religion. Seriously though, two thirds of the economy is based on consumer spending, which reflects consumer beliefs about the future. More spending reflects that consumers are hopeful about the future of the country. We need people to spend to keep our country going strong and prepare for the future.
This is true, but if I'm going to spend money on a doll, I'd prefer it to be less ugly. If I'm going to spend money on a book, I'd prefer it to be a good book. Such a load of crap.
Anonymous
11/22/2012 17:20
Subject: Will I regret not doing "Santa"?
Anonymous wrote:[b]Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Nanny here-
MB and DB did this to DC. I've been with the family 7 years and it's extremely sad every year when he wants to go see Santa and his hipster parents are too cool for Santa. It's actually a little obnoxious and iunfair to the kid. Last year we were in the mall and it broke my heart having to pull this little boy away from the line to go see Santa because he wasn't allowed. I think you are kind of pathetic OP and really hope you can put your kid first and be a hipster second.
We don't do Santa (in the sense of teaching the kids he is real) but they still like him like a Christmas mascot...get a picture on his knee, we give gifts from 'Santa' and they guess who it is really from etc... We aren't anti-Santa. By saying we don't do Santa we just don't do the Santa is real.
Nanny again- I totally agree with what you are saying and my Mom was the same way. When I asked if Santa was real she told me the truth that he wasn't because she didn't want to lie to me. But he was like you said, a mascot and I still get presents every year from 'Santa'... Even though I'm 28!! I also get presents from Mrs. Calus, the reindeer & the elves. Just seems incredibly sad when people are anti Santa, like my employers (who are great people but hipsters).
Aren't you a nasty, judgmental little thing?
Uhhh the only nasty comments were yours, PP.
She called her MB/DB hipsters and suggested that they were harming their child. She's a meanie. If I were her MB/DB any bitching about Christmas would get her fired in a second. Preferably on Christmas eve.
Anonymous
11/22/2012 17:18
Subject: Re:Will I regret not doing "Santa"?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
I am simply pointing out that it's really weird to celebrate the traditions that are hallmarks of the faith and not share a fundamental belief in what drives the holiday in the first place. Maybe it's just a form of being a lemming who lacks critical thinking skills and going along to get along, but it's tremendously inconsistent. But I find it appalling that a self-professed "atheist" in particular would celebrate. This is not some anthropological thing, where you're in a strange land and experiencing some local custom, a "when in Rome" situation. Have some conviction in your beliefs. If you don't believe in God, why celebrate a holiday that is built around the birth of his Son?
I'm perfectly comfortable celebrating Christmas. I believe in family and kindness and feasting and presents and having a nice party. I don't believe in Jesus. I tell my children exactly that. I also tell them that Santa Claus is just a fun game that parents play with kids.
I'm sorry that celebrating Christmas without a belief in Christ is threatening to you. However, Christians don't have first or only claim to a winter solstice holiday. The roots of the Christmas holiday are pagan, and as currently celebrated it's a pagan/Christian amalgamation. Christmas trees owe their existence to the use of evergreens in pre-Christian winter rites to symbolize eternal life. Wreaths also symbolize eternal life in multiple pagan traditions. Yule was a pagan holiday for feasting. Christians celebrate Christmas on December 25, because it was the Roman holiday celebrating the birthday of Sol Invictus, a Roman sun god. Santa is a kindly replacement for Krampus. Diwali is an Indian religious holiday in December. Hannukah is a Jewish religious holiday in December. Hogmany is a pagan Gaelic New Year's holiday.
It just an excuse to throw a party, buy some presents, and have a nice meal. We don't go to church or put a creche or listen to religious music or sing religious music or decorate with angels or Santas. The Christian content in our holiday is pretty much zero.
If I call it a Winter Solstice celebration, would you feel better?
Happy holidays!
Anonymous
11/22/2012 13:59
Subject: Will I regret not doing "Santa"?
Anonymous wrote:OP, just don't make the wrong decision. If you screw up with how to present Santa to your kids, you will ruin them for life.
OP here. Thank you for this. LOL.
I'm enjoying the debate this has spurred. I feel better about my decision not to get into the Santa thing, but also feel a bit more prepared on how to handle it when DS gets a bit older and comes homes with questions.
And, just because I love a religious debate, I'll just add that while we are an agnostic family, we are culturally Christian (and both DH + grew up in church)so Christmas is our holiday. DS will be aware of the other holidays and traditions, but it doesn't seem appropriate to celebrate those in any real way.
Anonymous
11/22/2012 13:19
Subject: Will I regret not doing "Santa"?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:If Santa is the only magic some of the poor children of these PPs have, at Christmas or otherwise, then I am sad for you. Easter Bunny, Santa, Tooth Fairy - I liked the presents as a kid, but that's about it. The alleged "magic" lay only in the anticipation of the loot. It's an unimaginable and low way of creating wonderment in your child's life. Dig deeper.
Give me a break.
The nanny has been the only reasonable one is this thread and I almost spit out my coffee laughing at her comment about "the hipster parents'. This is so fucking true in this area. "We are so cool that we don't do Santa."
I am breaking out the Elf on the Shelf tonight. It provides a month of laughter and I love to catch my kids talking to him. Baking cookies for Santa, leaving carrots for his reindeer, etc. It's fun.
+1
Team Nanny.
Anonymous
11/22/2012 12:45
Subject: Will I regret not doing "Santa"?
[b]Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Nanny here-
MB and DB did this to DC. I've been with the family 7 years and it's extremely sad every year when he wants to go see Santa and his hipster parents are too cool for Santa. It's actually a little obnoxious and iunfair to the kid. Last year we were in the mall and it broke my heart having to pull this little boy away from the line to go see Santa because he wasn't allowed. I think you are kind of pathetic OP and really hope you can put your kid first and be a hipster second.
We don't do Santa (in the sense of teaching the kids he is real) but they still like him like a Christmas mascot...get a picture on his knee, we give gifts from 'Santa' and they guess who it is really from etc... We aren't anti-Santa. By saying we don't do Santa we just don't do the Santa is real.
Nanny again- I totally agree with what you are saying and my Mom was the same way. When I asked if Santa was real she told me the truth that he wasn't because she didn't want to lie to me. But he was like you said, a mascot and I still get presents every year from 'Santa'... Even though I'm 28!! I also get presents from Mrs. Calus, the reindeer & the elves. Just seems incredibly sad when people are anti Santa, like my employers (who are great people but hipsters).
Aren't you a nasty, judgmental little thing?
Uhhh the only nasty comments were yours, PP.
Anonymous
11/22/2012 12:40
Subject: Re:Will I regret not doing "Santa"?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I can't tell from your post, but do you actually celebrate Christmas? If you don't believe in God, yet celebrate Christmas, I don't see how adding Santa to the mix is so terrible.
These are contradictory positions. You know this, right? Christmas is a celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ. It's not a secular holiday. It takes some really serious cognitive dissonance to profess no belief in God and then celebrate Christmas. A belief that Jesus is the son of God is the baseline for all of this, even the sillier secular traditions that go along with it (and which I see no harm in). You really can't cherrypick this stuff.
To the second poster -- apparently plenty of Americans celebrate Xmas (95%), but don't go to church on Xmas eve or Xmas day (62% go to church). So, about 33% of Americans celebrate Xmas in some way without going to church. If you think Xmas is primarily a religious holiday, you are naive. Xmas, in practice, is primarily a commercial season... especially the santa aspect.
The secular has far overtaken the religious.
Especially the "Elf on the Shelf" thing. This is a load of commercial crap created to sell books and dolls.
This is America, materialism and consumerism are our religion. Seriously though, two thirds of the economy is based on consumer spending, which reflects consumer beliefs about the future. More spending reflects that consumers are hopeful about the future of the country. We need people to spend to keep our country going strong and prepare for the future.