Anonymous
Post 09/08/2012 13:42     Subject: pledge of allegiance in schools?

Hmmm. My feeling was the main goal of this thread was to stir the pot, because the last thread about religion had just sunk off the first page. I'm always surprised at how some (not all) atheists are obsessed about their own atheism, and need to shove it in everyone else's faces, for example by keeping threads about their atheism going on DCUM. Anyway, the atheist kooks and religious kooks have come out to play. It certainly looks like OP succeeded....
Anonymous
Post 09/08/2012 13:36     Subject: Re:pledge of allegiance in schools?
Anonymous wrote:I honestly wish the pledge would be phased out - there are other ways to teach patriotism and love of country. Most people just recite it and don't even think about its meaning, which to me says it is really just empty words. And pledging allegiance to anything is...well, it is creepy.

Then you have the "under god" part that was added to show our supposed superiority to the "godless" communists but everyone claims is essential (bullshit...and the original pledge was written by an atheist) and the "liberty and justice FOR ALL" part (when we have lots of citizens who are NOT seen as equal).

There is PLENTY wrong with the pledge, but I personally am not going to raise these things with my kid this young. I will let her think about it on her own time. I started thinking it was odd in elementary school all on my own.

As for the "endowed by our creator" argument - if you know anything about history, you know that was just added for emphasis, right? The author didn't truly believe that shit.


With all due respect, your historical analysis is too shallow.

The philosophical underpinnings of our country were based solidly on natural law; i.e., that some truths are universal, some rights inalienable, and justice transcendent of any particular regime, culture, or society. Without that conceptual framework, our country never would have existed.

The author of the Declaration was a Deist. He believed in an absolute Authority. He knew that there needed to be an authority greater than any human being for his arguments to make sense.

But it is not important what the founders personally believed; it is important what they collectively reasoned.
Anonymous
Post 09/08/2012 13:35     Subject: pledge of allegiance in schools?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Atheists like you make me want to vomit - you disgust me that you are against your child even mentioning the word god.

How unfortunate that you want to take away her ability to have options and chose for herself what she believes when she is older. You are a terrible parent.

PS - THANK YOU for living in DC - THANK YOU! One less atheist left wing loon in my town.


This is ridiculous. All parents are supposed to teach their kids their family values.


Your "values," or lack thereof, make me sick - where do they come from if not from God and the 10 commandments? Where? What is the basis of your values? The satanic bible? MSNBC? Whatever you feel like at the moment? Obviously, one of your values is to shield your children from God.

CHEW ON THIS - Jesus said in the Bible that to turn people away from him and God is the ONLY UNFORGIVABLE SIN - the ONLY ONE - in other words, as a parent or human being, to turn your child away from God is the WORST SIN imaginable.
Anonymous
Post 09/08/2012 13:31     Subject: Re:pledge of allegiance in schools?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:this whole thread makes me sad.


Me too, and I'm not some jingoistic "American! Fuck yeah!" asshole.

What's wrong with children reciting the pledge. Why on earth would it make you feel "uncomfortable?"


If it were, "one nation, under Satan," would you be okay with your kids reciting it every day at school?


No, because "God" and "Satan" stand for very different concepts.

For you, they stand for the same concept: "that which does not exist."

In reality, "God" stands for absolute Truth, Authority, Justice, and Right. A concept without which we would have no United States, because, as the Declaration states, "We are endowed BY OUR CREATOR with certain INALIENABLE RIGHTS."

Remove an objective standard of right and wrong, as in God's own laws, and all you have is a jumble of opinions, with no real meaning or power. No human rights. Just atoms coming together and falling apart.

So you have the right to remain silent. Because you are an American. And because you are human, with free will to choose what to believe or not believe. But the only reason you can even conceive of such concepts is because you were created in the image of God, with intellect and free will.


Well put!
Anonymous
Post 09/08/2012 13:31     Subject: pledge of allegiance in schools?
Anonymous wrote:Atheists like you make me want to vomit - you disgust me that you are against your child even mentioning the word god.

How unfortunate that you want to take away her ability to have options and chose for herself what she believes when she is older. You are a terrible parent.

PS - THANK YOU for living in DC - THANK YOU! One less atheist left wing loon in my town.


This is ridiculous. All parents are supposed to teach their kids their family values.
Anonymous
Post 09/08/2012 13:28     Subject: pledge of allegiance in schools?
Atheists like you make me want to vomit - you disgust me that you are against your child even mentioning the word god.

How unfortunate that you want to take away her ability to have options and chose for herself what she believes when she is older. You are a terrible parent.

PS - THANK YOU for living in DC - THANK YOU! One less atheist left wing loon in my town.
Anonymous
Post 09/08/2012 12:14     Subject: Re:pledge of allegiance in schools?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Honestly, when I was a kid, I didn't even notice the "under God" part. It was just words. I didn't think about the meaning until I was much older.

Now, the Lord's Prayer, which my first-grade teacher made us recite, I objected to strongly. (It was a Christian school but I am not Christian.) I finally had my mother say something to her to get me excused. Before that, if you didn't say either the prayer or the pledge, you had to march up to the front of the room and say them by yourself!


Then why on earth did you go to a Christian school?


My mother taught there, so it was free for us kids. My family wasn't going to turn down a first-rate private school education that we otherwise could not have afforded.
Anonymous
Post 09/08/2012 12:06     Subject: Re:pledge of allegiance in schools?
and the original pledge was written by an atheist


Not quite - the pledge was written by a Baptist minister who was also a socialist. It's significant that a minister wrote the pledge and didn't feel it necessary to include a reference to a god.
Anonymous
Post 09/08/2012 11:52     Subject: pledge of allegiance in schools?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Why horrified?


Because it is encouraging a young child to be rude, defiant, confused, entitled, self-conscious, me-centered and much more. Granted, it is a small thing, but parents who are of this mindset are on their way to raising obnoxious brats.


They are raising kids less likely to be sheep.

I
"Pumpkins, remember what Mummy told you: some of your friends and teachers, OK probably 90% of the people at your school, may say something about God, and may think you should be respectful and thankful that you live in this country. But my precious shouldn't have to go along with that because Mummy knows more about all of this than they do! So you show them, Snowflake. If you hear your friends chanting something to the flag, you refuse to say the word "God!" Got that???!!! I know you don't understand all of this, but you do this for Mummy, OK?"


Please stop using the term 'snowflake' like that. It's so mean and sarcastic. Not to mention so over-done on this website, and unoriginal. If you are so eager to insult me or make me feel bad, find a way to do it that does not involve insulting my innocent child by sarcastically implying that there's nothing special or unique about him/her.

That is a fact, not an insult.




I'm not trying to make you "feel bad." I'm trying to point out the insanity of your position on this issue.
Anonymous
Post 09/08/2012 11:39     Subject: pledge of allegiance in schools?
Anonymous wrote:
I'm not trying to be snarky, but if EVERY child is special and unique, then isn't being "special and unique" simply "ordinary"?


"The Incredibles" nailed this with Syndrome's line: "...and when EVERYONE is super, NO ONE will be."
Anonymous
Post 09/08/2012 10:50     Subject: Re:pledge of allegiance in schools?
Anonymous wrote:Just curious -- would you feel uncomfortable if the children were told to stand and put their hands over their hearts and sing the Star Spangled Banner every morning?


I am one of the posters who objects to the pledge because of the words "under god." As to your example above, personally, I wouldn't be thrilled about this, because I think it's too much (and takes a lot longer than saying the short pledge).
Anonymous
Post 09/08/2012 10:46     Subject: pledge of allegiance in schools?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Why horrified?


Because it is encouraging a young child to be rude, defiant, confused, entitled, self-conscious, me-centered and much more. Granted, it is a small thing, but parents who are of this mindset are on their way to raising obnoxious brats.


They are raising kids less likely to be sheep.

I
"Pumpkins, remember what Mummy told you: some of your friends and teachers, OK probably 90% of the people at your school, may say something about God, and may think you should be respectful and thankful that you live in this country. But my precious shouldn't have to go along with that because Mummy knows more about all of this than they do! So you show them, Snowflake. If you hear your friends chanting something to the flag, you refuse to say the word "God!" Got that???!!! I know you don't understand all of this, but you do this for Mummy, OK?"


Please stop using the term 'snowflake' like that. It's so mean and sarcastic. Not to mention so over-done on this website, and unoriginal. If you are so eager to insult me or make me feel bad, find a way to do it that does not involve insulting my innocent child by sarcastically implying that there's nothing special or unique about him/her.






I don't think there is any implication. Clearly you think your child is special and unique. Maybe you take that view to an extreme. In reality, your child is probably not those things and your strong insistence to the contrary puts you squarely in the camp deserving of the "snowflake" derision.

I love how you think "snowflake" is overdone, however. That's really very cute. As if you think you are some arbiter of these things.


My child IS special and unique. So is yours. So is everyone's.


I'm not trying to be snarky, but if EVERY child is special and unique, then isn't being "special and unique" simply "ordinary"?


No. Just because uniqueness is widespread doesn't mean it becomes ordinary; it makes it a universal truth. Children (and people, everywhere) are all unique and special in different ways.
Of course every child is special and unique. I don't understand why people think it's boastful or somehow arrogant for a parent to think of her child as special. Are there really parents out there who say to themselves, "my child is not special and unique, she is just ordinary"?
Anonymous
Post 09/08/2012 10:17     Subject: Re:pledge of allegiance in schools?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:




Anonymous wrote:
Va public schools recite it. Makes me uncomfortable, too.


Why does pledging allegiance to your nation make you uncomfortable? Part of school responsibility is to teach children how to be good citizens. What's the problem here?



No wonder there are so many anti-America Americans these days......


I don't know if you people are being willfully obtuse, or you aren't understanding the objection: the objection is NOT to the pledge of allegiance in general, and the patriotism behind it, and the love for this country, etc....the objection is purely to the fact that the words UNDER GOD are included in the pledge. Not everybody in this country worships god. The pledge is not being inclusive to all Americans. Now THAT'S anti-American.


Actually, I think there are two conversations happening one.

Some claim that their objection is to the inclusion of the phrase "Under God" in the pledge, which was added 60 years after the Pledge was authored.

Others seem to have an objection to the fact that the pledge is recited at all in either preschool or elementary school, or both.

I have plenty of understanding for those in the first group. I think discomfort with saying "Under God" is legitimate. I have far less understanding of the second group who would object to the recitation of the Pledge in schools, even preschool (where they are learning how to go to elementary school). This is part of the civic education of our children. There's nothing wrong with teaching them to have allegiance to their country. We're not teaching them BLIND allegiance (at least I hope not). But if you go to any government function, they all begin with the Pledge. It's where the government functions (i.e. a city council meeting) include a prayer that I begin to get very queasy. But the Pledge? No. Not in the least.

There is nothing wrong with modeling love of country for your children. Even the most liberal of Americans (like myself) know that. In many countries, the views I have wouldn't be tolerated and I'd be in a prison work camp for having them, so I very much love my country.


I'm in the second camp. My mother is blindly patriotic. Just who that pledge is meant to touch. She still thinks our nation's doing things like putting AMERICAN citizens of Japanese ancestry in interment camps in WWII was a good thing, and has mentioned its something we should consider for Muslim AMERICANS. That's exactly the type of blind patriotism that horrifies me. Just because it's the US doing it doesn't mean it's good. I'd much rather have a pledge to uphold the principles of the Constitution, which is a brilliant document. We only get ourselves in trouble when we go against its inherent principles.
Anonymous
Post 09/08/2012 10:11     Subject: Re:pledge of allegiance in schools?
I honestly wish the pledge would be phased out - there are other ways to teach patriotism and love of country. Most people just recite it and don't even think about its meaning, which to me says it is really just empty words. And pledging allegiance to anything is...well, it is creepy.

Then you have the "under god" part that was added to show our supposed superiority to the "godless" communists but everyone claims is essential (bullshit...and the original pledge was written by an atheist) and the "liberty and justice FOR ALL" part (when we have lots of citizens who are NOT seen as equal).

There is PLENTY wrong with the pledge, but I personally am not going to raise these things with my kid this young. I will let her think about it on her own time. I started thinking it was odd in elementary school all on my own.

As for the "endowed by our creator" argument - if you know anything about history, you know that was just added for emphasis, right? The author didn't truly believe that shit.
Anonymous
Post 09/08/2012 10:10     Subject: pledge of allegiance in schools?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Why horrified?


Because it is encouraging a young child to be rude, defiant, confused, entitled, self-conscious, me-centered and much more. Granted, it is a small thing, but parents who are of this mindset are on their way to raising obnoxious brats.


They are raising kids less likely to be sheep.

I
"Pumpkins, remember what Mummy told you: some of your friends and teachers, OK probably 90% of the people at your school, may say something about God, and may think you should be respectful and thankful that you live in this country. But my precious shouldn't have to go along with that because Mummy knows more about all of this than they do! So you show them, Snowflake. If you hear your friends chanting something to the flag, you refuse to say the word "God!" Got that???!!! I know you don't understand all of this, but you do this for Mummy, OK?"


Please stop using the term 'snowflake' like that. It's so mean and sarcastic. Not to mention so over-done on this website, and unoriginal. If you are so eager to insult me or make me feel bad, find a way to do it that does not involve insulting my innocent child by sarcastically implying that there's nothing special or unique about him/her.






I don't think there is any implication. Clearly you think your child is special and unique. Maybe you take that view to an extreme. In reality, your child is probably not those things and your strong insistence to the contrary puts you squarely in the camp deserving of the "snowflake" derision.

I love how you think "snowflake" is overdone, however. That's really very cute. As if you think you are some arbiter of these things.


My child IS special and unique. So is yours. So is everyone's.


I'm not trying to be snarky, but if EVERY child is special and unique, then isn't being "special and unique" simply "ordinary"?