Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow, this thread exploded.

Considering that something like 45% of American's believe in creationism (including my DH's entire extended family including his ex-wife and therefore my stepson), I personally take a more "we have to respect all beliefs" attitude. Even if I don't see any merit in creationism. But that is what I need to do, to keep the peace.

I think it's pretty well established that there are many stupid people in this country. Just because a minority believe something that is factually incorrect doesn't mean that belief has to be respected.

The earth is flat and I can prove it to a scientific certainty. Oh, wait. . . . .

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And creationists disagree.

That doesn't mean that viewpoint is worthy of respect or deference of any sort. It's not something you agree to disagree over.

Is this your approach towards all religions? You don't think they're worthy of respect or deference of any sort?

I realize you tend to think in terms of black and white. I wasn't talking about religion. I was talking about the profession (said "viewpoint") that the world was created in 7 days 7,000 years ago. That viewpoint is not worthy of any respect or deference. I know this is hard for you, but please try to keep up.

You have an insulting, condescending approach to other people that shines through your post. I hope life softens you a bit.

Anonymous wrote:Wow, this thread exploded.

Considering that something like 45% of American's believe in creationism (including my DH's entire extended family including his ex-wife and therefore my stepson), I personally take a more "we have to respect all beliefs" attitude. Even if I don't see any merit in creationism. But that is what I need to do, to keep the peace.

I think it's pretty well established that there are many stupid people in this country. Just because a minority believe something that is factually incorrect doesn't mean that belief has to be respected.

The earth is flat and I can prove it to a scientific certainty. Oh, wait. . . . .

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just because 45% of a population may believe in an ignorant, unproven scientific myth (I won't even call it a "theory") does not justify a "we have to respect all beliefs" attitude.

How would you have applied that kind of loosely-formed and incoherent logic to the beliefs of, say , 45% of the population of Nazi Germany?

"Respect all beliefs" there? Fuck no.

A LOT of people around with awfully loose & low bars for intellectual rigor, analysis, and scientific facts around here (meaning DCUM and the US).

You know what, you're right. I think for my next post, I'll go to "Parenting-Special Concerns" and post that I'm tired of my husband's ex-wife's Evangelical Christian beliefs and I'm going to start teaching my stepson all about evolution. And that I'll teach my children that many of their stepbrother's religious beliefs are based on incoherant logic and we're no longer going to tolerate it. That would be a fun post to read, wouldn't it?

See you over there.

I am a form believer in respecting other people, particularly in public (in private, though, is another matter). BUt in this case, I am really bothered by the idea that the idea of creationism and the idea of evolution are equal beliefs.

A VERY SMALL number of people "believe in" creationism.

THe larger world follows the scientific method. There is no equal in that.

Creating false equivalencies is I think one of our biggest dangers - on the one hand this, on the other hand that - when there are 1000 hands on one side and only 1 hand on the other side doesn't even come close to presenting the real case.

I am also bothered by the poster above you who typed Christians believe. I am Christian, and in no way do I believe in Creationism. And neither does the Catholic Church (despite their many other flaws), and that represents the largest number of Christians world wide.

Anonymous wrote:Just because 45% of a population may believe in an ignorant, unproven scientific myth (I won't even call it a "theory") does not justify a "we have to respect all beliefs" attitude.

How would you have applied that kind of loosely-formed and incoherent logic to the beliefs of, say , 45% of the population of Nazi Germany?

"Respect all beliefs" there? Fuck no.

A LOT of people around with awfully loose & low bars for intellectual rigor, analysis, and scientific facts around here (meaning DCUM and the US).

You know what, you're right. I think for my next post, I'll go to "Parenting-Special Concerns" and post that I'm tired of my husband's ex-wife's Evangelical Christian beliefs and I'm going to start teaching my stepson all about evolution. And that I'll teach my children that many of their stepbrother's religious beliefs are based on incoherant logic and we're no longer going to tolerate it. That would be a fun post to read, wouldn't it?

Wow, when did DCUM become so full of scientists who know things for "fact"? It must be nice to feel so certain. 45% of your countrymen disagree with you or at least feel there's room for doubt.

Pp- why do you keep assuming that none of us have looked at the creationists' arguments?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP is making a valid point: you come off as someone with absolute, arrogant confidence in your own views, and absolute certainty that everyone else is wrong. You seem pretty gross.

NP here. Creationism is demonstrably wrong. Yes, it is a "view", but one that is objectively proven wrong. Should we have to respect that?

Respect people, sure. But not opinions.

Once again. Do you know the creationists' arguments? Apparently they raise some questions about evolution. I tend to doubt they raise enough serious questions. But then again, I haven't bothered to figure this out. Neither have you. So you can shut up now.

Anonymous wrote:I would not in explaining credit creationism with any scientific validity.
I might say people believe different things. But I would also say that science shows that creationists have no scientific basis for their belief and are basically ignorant religious tools who give voice to the Marxist home run that "religion is the opiate of the masses."

Oh goody! Forget creationism. You believe in historical/dialectical materialism as the explanation for history's march! How's that working out for you?!

(Fair notice: if you come back with "Marxists don't have to follow everything Marx wrote," I'm going to come back with "believers don't all take every word in the Bible literally.")

Anonymous wrote:PP is making a valid point: you come off as someone with absolute, arrogant confidence in your own views, and absolute certainty that everyone else is wrong. You seem pretty gross.

NP here. Creationism is demonstrably wrong. Yes, it is a "view", but one that is objectively proven wrong. Should we have to respect that?

Respect people, sure. But not opinions.

Just because 45% of a population may believe in an ignorant, unproven scientific myth (I won't even call it a "theory") does not justify a "we have to respect all beliefs" attitude.

How would you have applied that kind of loosely-formed and incoherent logic to the beliefs of, say , 45% of the population of Nazi Germany?

"Respect all beliefs" there? Fuck no.

A LOT of people around with awfully loose & low bars for intellectual rigor, analysis, and scientific facts around here (meaning DCUM and the US).

Wow, this thread exploded.

Considering that something like 45% of American's believe in creationism (including my DH's entire extended family including his ex-wife and therefore my stepson), I personally take a more "we have to respect all beliefs" attitude. Even if I don't see any merit in creationism. But that is what I need to do, to keep the peace.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And creationists disagree.

That doesn't mean that viewpoint is worthy of respect or deference of any sort. It's not something you agree to disagree over.

So you teach your kids to disrespect any viewpoint that differs from yours? I just thought we were way past this.

No, I teach my children not to treat all opinions as equal. Opinions based on fact are generally better. One doesn't have to be disrespectful to the people who hold other views, but I am not going to tell my kid that they should give equal weight to everything theory they hear.

Then we will have to politely agree to disagree. That's what I about America.

No, see, we're over in Afghanistan fighting a war started by people like you. So, there's really nothing polite about my disagreement. I think you are dangerous for America.

NP here. No, you're the close-minded one. According to your line of thinking *any opinion* that differs from yours is undeserving of respect.

Where does it end? With how I vote, or with the color of my garage? The Santa Claus and Holocaust points are stupid straw men. No adult believes in Santa Claus. And Holocaust deniers have no "proof."

Yuck. I too thought we were past this.

Signed,
My family marched against the Iraq War ... and we teach our kids evolution ... and we teach our kids to respect honest differences in belief

I'm rather disturbed that you don't see the difference between people disagreeing who to vote for, and believing in "creationism" over evolution.

There is no "right" answer of who would be the best president, or mayor, etc. You can make some objective arguments, but it eventually comes down to opinion.

Sorry, but there is a right and wrong answer as to whether evolution occurred. A person can certainly think that it did not occur. An overwhelming amount of evidence would say that person is wrong. It's not an opinion. And please, before you use the word "theory", look up what a scientific theory actually means.

So wait: you (or possibly another PP on your side) made a point about Afghanistan, and then you jump all over someone for responding? You are a jerk.

You're the one who doesn't get the concept of competing "theories." As a researcher, I know what "theory" means. Specifically, if you have a "theory," but I can't be bothered to learn it (i.e., I can't be bothered to read your books or visit your museum), then I have no standing. I'd be laughed out of a conference for commenting on a paper I haven't read.

In other words, you're as ignorant about the creationists as they are about evolution. Again, you're jerk.

There is a right and wrong about TOLERANCE. Especially if the creationists aren't hurting anyone (and no, "keeping their kids in ignorance" doesn't rise to this measure).