Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Joy and grace? I'm sure some people who bring a severely impaired child to term do experience that - witness the Santorum family.

But many suffer a terrible emotional, physical, and financial toll, the worst of which is watching their innocent child suffer while they stand by, unable to help.

That doesn't make sense. So you preempt that by causing the suffering yourself?

Yes, exactly. That is the point. An abortion is a quick and painless way to die for the fetus -- being born with a deadly birth defects is not.

Anonymous wrote:Joy and grace? I'm sure some people who bring a severely impaired child to term do experience that - witness the Santorum family.

But many suffer a terrible emotional, physical, and financial toll, the worst of which is watching their innocent child suffer while they stand by, unable to help.

Yes, joy and grace. It's obvious you are having an immensely difficult time comprehending this. Do some research. Talk to those families who chose the path of allowing their "incompatible with life" diagnosed babies to be born. You will be amazed at what you find. Perpetuating the myth that a regular woman can't experience this, or that somehow termination is "easier" truly underestimates women. A late term abortion is in many cases very expensive - more than allowing the child to be born and getting hospice care - and it can cause physical problems as well. Yes, ultimately couples are going to make whatever decision they want to, but we are doing everyone a disservice by stifling the conversation, per OPs proposal.

Anonymous wrote:Joy and grace? I'm sure some people who bring a severely impaired child to term do experience that - witness the Santorum family.

But many suffer a terrible emotional, physical, and financial toll, the worst of which is watching their innocent child suffer while they stand by, unable to help.

That doesn't make sense. So you preempt that by causing the suffering yourself?

Joy and grace? I'm sure some people who bring a severely impaired child to term do experience that - witness the Santorum family.

But many suffer a terrible emotional, physical, and financial toll, the worst of which is watching their innocent child suffer while they stand by, unable to help.

To form an opinion or estimation of after careful consideration- Judging. We all do it, get over it, and please increase your vocabulary.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Alright, I am not exactly sure why I am wading into this except that I wanted to make a point to my fellow pro-lifers, which is that you aren't taking into consideration the emotional toll that it can take on a mother, other parent and older children to carry to term a child who has a very small chance of survival. Are you visibly pregnant right now? Think of how many times a day an acquitance or stranger asks you if you know what you are having, if you are excited, if you have the nursery ready? When your older children are with you, how frequently someone asks them if they are excited to be a big brother or sister? Now imagine that younhave a less than 5% chance of giving birth to a live baby and a much less than that chance of bringing a baby home. Could you do it? I wish I could say that I could, that i could allow my child to die in my arms, but I really, honestly could not. Maybe in a world where i coukd live i a cave and not see people and be reminded that I could miscarry my baby any day and that longing prayed for and awaited child is destined to die. And I don't think I could ask my 3 year old to do it either.

Have you ever spoken with a family that has allowed their T18 baby to be born? This should be a part of the information necessary to make a truly informed decision. Although in this moment you can't understand how you would do it, the truth is that those who do (choose life) often have, alongside their deep sorrow, amazing grace and joy with their baby's birth and death. The alternative - the violent mercy-killing of your baby - is horrible in its own way, too. I've never heard of anyone who chose that path talk about the "grace" or "joy" of such an experience. Consider this: those who choose termination must often shield their journey from even their closest friends and family members. A personal tragedy that you cannot even openly grieve. Those who choose life for their baby are able to baptize their baby (obviously pertinent only to those who practice this) and give their baby a proper funeral and burial. It may be painful, but our culture provides great support for those whose baby "naturally" died. Mercy killing, prior to the baby's birth, does not offer any of this.

What the hell are you talking about? I've heard women who chose to terminate for medical reasons talk about how they knew it was the right thing to do, how they were sad but at peace with their choice. And of COURSE they can grieve openly. They don't have to hide their choice because most of the world isn't going to hurl rhetorical filth in their faces, like you do, because they have at least a modicum of decency. "Mercy killing." What is WRONG with you?

What is it if it isn't mercy killing? That's precisely what it is. A late term abortion due to an incompatible-with-life diagnosis -- ie, euthanasia: killing an otherwise wanted unborn baby so it won't face a life of pain (surgeries, tests and physical pain). What exactly would you call it? Or am I missing some part of the reason why women make this choice? This isn't "rhetorical filth"; it is just what it is. If you could take a step back, you would see that I'm not judging. It's a truly awful position to be in -- that of determining what should happen to your baby who has a life-threatening disease. This is precisely why some families choose not to do CVS or amnio; so that they don't need to travel that terrible road.

And, there have been many many suggestions in these threads today, as well as threads in the past, about not telling people of the termination. "Be careful who you tell" is a common refrain. Yes, a woman may feel peace with her termination (and hopefully she does), but that is not the same thing as the joy and grace that families report who have allowed their T18 babies to be born.

Are you really that dense? YOU, sir, are the reason that women who chose termination can't discuss it in public (and have to come to anonymous forums like this one). It's hard to feel at peace if you know some people are going to accuse you of engaging in a brutal mercy killing of an innocent child. It's laughable that you claim you're not judging -- you believe you know the right answer, and you want to convince other people of it. Definition of judging.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Alright, I am not exactly sure why I am wading into this except that I wanted to make a point to my fellow pro-lifers, which is that you aren't taking into consideration the emotional toll that it can take on a mother, other parent and older children to carry to term a child who has a very small chance of survival. Are you visibly pregnant right now? Think of how many times a day an acquitance or stranger asks you if you know what you are having, if you are excited, if you have the nursery ready? When your older children are with you, how frequently someone asks them if they are excited to be a big brother or sister? Now imagine that younhave a less than 5% chance of giving birth to a live baby and a much less than that chance of bringing a baby home. Could you do it? I wish I could say that I could, that i could allow my child to die in my arms, but I really, honestly could not. Maybe in a world where i coukd live i a cave and not see people and be reminded that I could miscarry my baby any day and that longing prayed for and awaited child is destined to die. And I don't think I could ask my 3 year old to do it either.

Have you ever spoken with a family that has allowed their T18 baby to be born? This should be a part of the information necessary to make a truly informed decision. Although in this moment you can't understand how you would do it, the truth is that those who do (choose life) often have, alongside their deep sorrow, amazing grace and joy with their baby's birth and death. The alternative - the violent mercy-killing of your baby - is horrible in its own way, too. I've never heard of anyone who chose that path talk about the "grace" or "joy" of such an experience. Consider this: those who choose termination must often shield their journey from even their closest friends and family members. A personal tragedy that you cannot even openly grieve. Those who choose life for their baby are able to baptize their baby (obviously pertinent only to those who practice this) and give their baby a proper funeral and burial. It may be painful, but our culture provides great support for those whose baby "naturally" died. Mercy killing, prior to the baby's birth, does not offer any of this.

What the hell are you talking about? I've heard women who chose to terminate for medical reasons talk about how they knew it was the right thing to do, how they were sad but at peace with their choice. And of COURSE they can grieve openly. They don't have to hide their choice because most of the world isn't going to hurl rhetorical filth in their faces, like you do, because they have at least a modicum of decency. "Mercy killing." What is WRONG with you?

What is it if it isn't mercy killing? That's precisely what it is. A late term abortion due to an incompatible-with-life diagnosis -- ie, euthanasia: killing an otherwise wanted unborn baby so it won't face a life of pain (surgeries, tests and physical pain). What exactly would you call it? Or am I missing some part of the reason why women make this choice? This isn't "rhetorical filth"; it is just what it is. If you could take a step back, you would see that I'm not judging. It's a truly awful position to be in -- that of determining what should happen to your baby who has a life-threatening disease. This is precisely why some families choose not to do CVS or amnio; so that they don't need to travel that terrible road.

And, there have been many many suggestions in these threads today, as well as threads in the past, about not telling people of the termination. "Be careful who you tell" is a common refrain. Yes, a woman may feel peace with her termination (and hopefully she does), but that is not the same thing as the joy and grace that families report who have allowed their T18 babies to be born.

Anonymous wrote:You are right. I am sorry if I posted anything that seemed like I lack compassion. I think that I and others were posting not to make things harder, but to share another viewpoint. I guess it's just all about how you look at things. You get lots of "it's okay, it's okay, it's okay" but anyone who says anything different is told to be quiet. There are many mothers who have aborted and regretted it. There are many who have not aborted and appreciated the time that they did have. Why is it taboo to discuss this?

Pro-choice poster here. I respect your point of view, and agree that it should not be taboo to discuss this (even though I would likely make very different decisions that you would, if -heaven forbid- such a situation becomes real for us).

Anonymous wrote:Alright, I am not exactly sure why I am wading into this except that I wanted to make a point to my fellow pro-lifers, which is that you aren't taking into consideration the emotional toll that it can take on a mother, other parent and older children to carry to term a child who has a very small chance of survival. Are you visibly pregnant right now? Think of how many times a day an acquitance or stranger asks you if you know what you are having, if you are excited, if you have the nursery ready? When your older children are with you, how frequently someone asks them if they are excited to be a big brother or sister? Now imagine that younhave a less than 5% chance of giving birth to a live baby and a much less than that chance of bringing a baby home. Could you do it? I wish I could say that I could, that i could allow my child to die in my arms, but I really, honestly could not. Maybe in a world where i coukd live i a cave and not see people and be reminded that I could miscarry my baby any day and that longing prayed for and awaited child is destined to die. And I don't think I could ask my 3 year old to do it either.

You are right. I am sorry if I posted anything that seemed like I lack compassion. I think that I and others were posting not to make things harder, but to share another viewpoint. I guess it's just all about how you look at things. You get lots of "it's okay, it's okay, it's okay" but anyone who says anything different is told to be quiet. There are many mothers who have aborted and regretted it. There are many who have not aborted and appreciated the time that they did have. Why is it taboo to discuss this?

Compassion is not what I lack. It's just that I look at things like- it's not really anyone's place to commit such a violent act when you don't even know how things would turn out- but even if you did, it's a horribly violent act to commit against an innocent baby. Some people do not realize that. I did not always view things like this. I never even thought about what abortion was, so I was okay with it. It was just "a thing". I thought it was wrong, but it wasn't anything to get worked up about. Then when I found out about what actually happens, that changed my mind. It's a TERRIBLE thing to do to a baby.

I don't deny that it must be very hard for the mothers and I feel for them. I feel for them if they don't terminate but they know the chances aren't good. I feel for them if they do terminate. Neither choice is going to erase the pain. There is going to be pain. I just feel for the little babies whose lives end in such a horrible fashion. And I feel for the mothers who eventually have to deal with how they choose to end their child's life. You can feel okay for years, but it will eventually catch up to you. I don't care if it's your choice- I will accept that it is, but I will never agree that it's okay to rip a child apart; and that it's the only option.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Alright, I am not exactly sure why I am wading into this except that I wanted to make a point to my fellow pro-lifers, which is that you aren't taking into consideration the emotional toll that it can take on a mother, other parent and older children to carry to term a child who has a very small chance of survival. Are you visibly pregnant right now? Think of how many times a day an acquitance or stranger asks you if you know what you are having, if you are excited, if you have the nursery ready? When your older children are with you, how frequently someone asks them if they are excited to be a big brother or sister? Now imagine that younhave a less than 5% chance of giving birth to a live baby and a much less than that chance of bringing a baby home. Could you do it? I wish I could say that I could, that i could allow my child to die in my arms, but I really, honestly could not. Maybe in a world where i coukd live i a cave and not see people and be reminded that I could miscarry my baby any day and that longing prayed for and awaited child is destined to die. And I don't think I could ask my 3 year old to do it either.

Have you ever spoken with a family that has allowed their T18 baby to be born? This should be a part of the information necessary to make a truly informed decision. Although in this moment you can't understand how you would do it, the truth is that those who do (choose life) often have, alongside their deep sorrow, amazing grace and joy with their baby's birth and death. The alternative - the violent mercy-killing of your baby - is horrible in its own way, too. I've never heard of anyone who chose that path talk about the "grace" or "joy" of such an experience. Consider this: those who choose termination must often shield their journey from even their closest friends and family members. A personal tragedy that you cannot even openly grieve. Those who choose life for their baby are able to baptize their baby (obviously pertinent only to those who practice this) and give their baby a proper funeral and burial. It may be painful, but our culture provides great support for those whose baby "naturally" died. Mercy killing, prior to the baby's birth, does not offer any of this.

What the hell are you talking about? I've heard women who chose to terminate for medical reasons talk about how they knew it was the right thing to do, how they were sad but at peace with their choice. And of COURSE they can grieve openly. They don't have to hide their choice because most of the world isn't going to hurl rhetorical filth in their faces, like you do, because they have at least a modicum of decency. "Mercy killing." What is WRONG with you?

Anonymous wrote:Alright, I am not exactly sure why I am wading into this except that I wanted to make a point to my fellow pro-lifers, which is that you aren't taking into consideration the emotional toll that it can take on a mother, other parent and older children to carry to term a child who has a very small chance of survival. Are you visibly pregnant right now? Think of how many times a day an acquitance or stranger asks you if you know what you are having, if you are excited, if you have the nursery ready? When your older children are with you, how frequently someone asks them if they are excited to be a big brother or sister? Now imagine that younhave a less than 5% chance of giving birth to a live baby and a much less than that chance of bringing a baby home. Could you do it? I wish I could say that I could, that i could allow my child to die in my arms, but I really, honestly could not. Maybe in a world where i coukd live i a cave and not see people and be reminded that I could miscarry my baby any day and that longing prayed for and awaited child is destined to die. And I don't think I could ask my 3 year old to do it either.

Have you ever spoken with a family that has allowed their T18 baby to be born? This should be a part of the information necessary to make a truly informed decision. Although in this moment you can't understand how you would do it, the truth is that those who do (choose life) often have, alongside their deep sorrow, amazing grace and joy with their baby's birth and death. The alternative - the violent mercy-killing of your baby - is horrible in its own way, too. I've never heard of anyone who chose that path talk about the "grace" or "joy" of such an experience. Consider this: those who choose termination must often shield their journey from even their closest friends and family members. A personal tragedy that you cannot even openly grieve. Those who choose life for their baby are able to baptize their baby (obviously pertinent only to those who practice this) and give their baby a proper funeral and burial. It may be painful, but our culture provides great support for those whose baby "naturally" died. Mercy killing, prior to the baby's birth, does not offer any of this.

Anonymous wrote:Alright, I am not exactly sure why I am wading into this except that I wanted to make a point to my fellow pro-lifers, which is that you aren't taking into consideration the emotional toll that it can take on a mother, other parent and older children to carry to term a child who has a very small chance of survival. Are you visibly pregnant right now? Think of how many times a day an acquitance or stranger asks you if you know what you are having, if you are excited, if you have the nursery ready? When your older children are with you, how frequently someone asks them if they are excited to be a big brother or sister? Now imagine that younhave a less than 5% chance of giving birth to a live baby and a much less than that chance of bringing a baby home. Could you do it? I wish I could say that I could, that i could allow my child to die in my arms, but I really, honestly could not. Maybe in a world where i coukd live i a cave and not see people and be reminded that I could miscarry my baby any day and that longing prayed for and awaited child is destined to die. And I don't think I could ask my 3 year old to do it either.

Exactly.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Alright, I am not exactly sure why I am wading into this except that I wanted to make a point to my fellow pro-lifers, which is that you aren't taking into consideration the emotional toll that it can take on a mother, other parent and older children to carry to term a child who has a very small chance of survival. Are you visibly pregnant right now? Think of how many times a day an acquitance or stranger asks you if you know what you are having, if you are excited, if you have the nursery ready? When your older children are with you, how frequently someone asks them if they are excited to be a big brother or sister? Now imagine that younhave a less than 5% chance of giving birth to a live baby and a much less than that chance of bringing a baby home. Could you do it? I wish I could say that I could, that i could allow my child to die in my arms, but I really, honestly could not. Maybe in a world where i coukd live i a cave and not see people and be reminded that I could miscarry my baby any day and that longing prayed for and awaited child is destined to die. And I don't think I could ask my 3 year old to do it either.

Perinatal hospice.

Could someone explain perinatal hospice to me?

Anonymous wrote:Alright, I am not exactly sure why I am wading into this except that I wanted to make a point to my fellow pro-lifers, which is that you aren't taking into consideration the emotional toll that it can take on a mother, other parent and older children to carry to term a child who has a very small chance of survival. Are you visibly pregnant right now? Think of how many times a day an acquitance or stranger asks you if you know what you are having, if you are excited, if you have the nursery ready? When your older children are with you, how frequently someone asks them if they are excited to be a big brother or sister? Now imagine that younhave a less than 5% chance of giving birth to a live baby and a much less than that chance of bringing a baby home. Could you do it? I wish I could say that I could, that i could allow my child to die in my arms, but I really, honestly could not. Maybe in a world where i coukd live i a cave and not see people and be reminded that I could miscarry my baby any day and that longing prayed for and awaited child is destined to die. And I don't think I could ask my 3 year old to do it either.

Perinatal hospice.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you can feel your baby move, have heard the heartbeat, and interact with it- but you still think it's a good idea to rip it apart by it's limbs, throw it on a table, and piece it back together; as opposed to letting things occur naturally...then there is something wrong with you.

Well, it kind of depends what you mean with "letting things occur naturally" if that means giving birth to a T18 child that will die within a few days after giving birth. Unlike some of the anti-abortion posters I will not go into too much graphic detail, but T18 is a very, very tragic syndrome.

It is not about "something is wrong with you". It is about making choices a parent has to make: what is in the best interest of the unborn child.

From reading your response, you would make another decision -- that is your right. But don't make it sound like it's an easy choice.

Thank you, PP for so eloquently saying what couldn't. I spent days researching when I discovered my baby has T18 desperately trying to find a good outcome. The longest "good" outcome anyone could find was a little girl who lived to be 4, then died after dozens of trips to the hospital in her short life and many surgeries. There is no good outcome in trisomy 18, only death. What a mother has control over is how and when if she knows the diagnosis in utero. The how may not be pleasant, but neither is the alternative. No one wins here. There is only grief.

And many posters here seem to forget that the mother and family still grieve even in a TMR. It's as if someone who chooses to terminate no longer deserves compassion, when she needs it most.